RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: regross on Friday 06 April 12 01:00 BST (UK)
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Hi Rootschat Members,
Just hoping for some fresh eyes on a problem we have been looking at for some years now
George Moss aka Gabriel Moss married Sarah Ann Davies in Sydney in 1839 (George was a convict and obtained permission to marry Sarah who had arrived free) They had 8 male and 4 female offspring, between 1837 and 1854. Sarah died in 30th December 1861. George married Mary Ann Heuston in 1864 they had 4 children 2 male 2 female. (1 female born in Melbourne 1 male died in Melbourne)
Certificates of marriages and deaths & burial held. Convict records held.
Other researchers claim that he was also the father of 4 children; 3 female 1 male; to Jane Batwell between 1862 and 1866.
We think that the researchers have latched on to the coincidence of the closeness between the George Moss's death in 1874 and Janes Batwell's subsequent legal marriage to James Napthali later that year,
From an online site (my comments in red):
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~smithwoods/indiI00019.html
There is no certificate to record of the birth or baptism of either Albert or Rose. On the birth certificate for Annie & Rebecca, they both list their parents as Jane Batwell and George Moss, as store keeper and that the marriage was in 1861 in Sydney.
Sarah did not die until 30th December 1861 this would indeed have meant he was a bigamist Rebecca was born in 1863 when jane was living at Liverpool St. Previous children of marriage is listed a "1 boy living".
In 1866 Jane was living with her parents, (as her mother sick, and died in 1866) at South head Rd. In 1866 Annie Leah was born, however on the birth certificate the previous children of marriage are listed as:
3 females, 6 males living by first wife (in 1866 our George had 4 females and 7 males living)
2 females, 1 male living by previous wife ( If this in intended to refer to MARY ANN H? her children were born 1865, 1867,1869 1871 does not seem possible that they could be included on the 1866 Annie Leah's birth certificate!!!!)
On George Moss' death certificate in 1874 Mary Ann states 2 sons 1 daughter living 1 deceased which again again contradicts the above information (3 born Sydney 1 born Melbourne).
from another researcher:
There is no recorded marriage for Jane and George in the colony of NSW, though the birth certificates of their children list George had 8 living children form his first marriage, and 4 from his second. Hence the mystery.
The above seems to me to preclude the George Moss m to Sarah Davies being the father of Jane's children
We have been researching all references to GEORGE MOSS in Sydney at that time to find another possible candidate.
cont
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from: John Levi & his 2 books “These are the names” & “Australian Genesis”
George Moss 1809 1854 arr 1832 –
father Marcus Warschauer (Mordecai Moses) transported to Sydney 1836 - mother Amelia Cohen –
siblings to Aust :Alexander Moses; Catherine Moss; Rosetta Moss –
George sec to Sydney Synagogue 1833 until 1838 –
George was newspaper man – contributed to “Jewish Chronicle” in London –
1833 took over Rose Inn at Maitland until 1834 when moved to Sydney –
by 1835 15 yo non Jewish common law wife, Louisa Wilkes –
1836 daughter Maria (Miriam) b Sydney & registered as Jew-
George jnr b 1837, Rosetta b 1838 – Jewish marriage 23rd March 1840 –
Louisa became Leah Abrahams – Abraham b 1842 d 1843;
Montague 1844 (called himself Montefiore M Moss; Lewis b 1846 –
Leah d 1851 –
4 July 1837 Australian newspaper appointed George ‘collector’ on behalf of paper –
31 March 1839 GR Nichols of Australian announced that without Moss’s sig
no receipt for money for newspaper valid –
George editor of 1st Jewish newspaper “Voice of Jacob in early 1840s –
listed as having house at Bridge St & house in Kent St
(Sydney Gazette 9 & 19th Sept 1842) –
George offended synagogue committee with article in SMH –
suspended by committee – broke health & mind –
d Tarban Creek Lunatic Asylum 44 yo – children looked after by Jewish Orphan Soc
George later became shipping & custom-house agent & George jnr followed in his footsteps
This George from the Synagogue had 3 male and 2 female children mother Leah/Louisa one son GEORGE born 1837 was old enough to be a canditate, he died in 1895.
from trove in 1872 a GEORGE MOSS charged in Sydney with deserting his 3 illegitimate children in Melbourne could still be either George Moss as George Moss and Mary Ann Heuston were in Melbourne at this time and she had 3 living children.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13264048?searchTerm=george+moss
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/5840113?searchTerm=george+moss
If as claimed by the other researcher he had married Jane in 1861 or 1862 no record to be found (remember his wife did not die till 30th December) so the possibilty is if he married Jane in 1861 then the marriage was bigamous, if he married her in 1862 then the 1874 marriage to Mary Ann would have been bigamous.
George & Sarah Moss also had a son George W Moss, he too has been researched and was a possible candidate athough he married in 1863 and had 2 sons and 1 daughter born too late to be those refered to in the other's researches.
AJHS have been helpful & Trove, NSW records, Victorian records, all searched extensively using Moss , Moses, Morris, Batwell, Batewll, Bathwell etc.
Fresh eyes are sorely needed
Robyn
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Hi Robyn
Picked up on one small detail.
George married Mary Ann Heuston in 1864 they had 4 children 2 male 2 female. (1 female born in Melbourne 1 male died in Melbourne)
'Tis the other way round -
Amy Florence born Sydney, died Melbourne 1870 aged 1y. Reg #9502
Ernest Arthur born Melbourne 1871. Reg #18252
Rhonda
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Hi Robyn
I noticed a birth for an Albert MORRIS with father George and mother Jane in Sydney.
reg #847/1862
Found a death for just one Rose SMITH in 1919 and the father was named Robert ??? with mother named Jane.
Wonder why Jane married in 1874 using the name BATEWELL if she had actually been married to George? If there was no legal marriage of George and Jane then why was George charged with three illegitimate children left in Melbourne?
Rhonda
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Rhonda,
Thanks for the correction it is easy to make a mistake when looking through volumes of paperwork
Yes what a puzzle it is!!
Which "mrs" George Moss has the 3 illegitimate children Mary whose marriage is registered or Jane's whose is only implied?
Indeed which George Moss,
- George father Mordechai mother Amelia Cohen b 1804 died 1854 can be ruled out on the date of his death.
George b 1837- 1895 father George mother Leah/Lousia Wilkes said by the AJHS and the Great Synagogue not to have married
George aka Gabriel b 1814 father Woolfe mother Frances married to Sarah and then Mary Ann?
George Moss b 1841 d 1902 father George Moss mother Sarah Davies had his family after tha dates on Annie Leah Moss's birth certificate.
There were several Moss families in Sydney at this time but not many GEORGE's old enough to have had 3 families!!!
We also found that birth for Albert in 1862. However the other researchers won't accept that it is their Albert as the surname is MORRIS!!!! (you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink)
They have Rose Moss married to Joseph Sidney Smith and dying in Kogarah in 1919 so thatc would match. Guess they ignore the ROBERT as her father !!!!! But no birth in NSW for a Rose Morriss/ Moss/Moses. The even postulate that Rose might really be Annie Leah
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~smithwoods/indiI00006.html
they have the marriage certificate but it does not clarify things. Hmmm wondering if ROSE could have been born in Melbourne?? in 1866
regards
Robyn
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Robyn
The death of Sarah was in newspapers dated Dec 1862 and Jan 1863 so a supposed marriage to Jane before that would have most certainly been bigamous!
The newspapers of the day had notices for the children born to the wife of George MOSS that correspond to Mary (as the legal wife). No birth notices for Jane's children.
Empire (Sydney, NSW : 1850 - 1875) Friday 11 August 1865
MOSS.—On the 16th July, at her residence, Harrington-street,
the wife of Mr. George Moss, sen., of a daughter.
The Sydney Morning Herald (NSW : 1842 - 1954) Saturday 22 June 1867
MOSS—June 2nd, at her residence, 35, Prince-street, the wife of George W. Moss, of a son.
Empire (Sydney, NSW : 1850 - 1875) Friday 8 October 1869
On the 28th September, at her residence, Victoria-street, Woolloomooloo, the wife of George Moss, wine merchant, of a daughter.
Possibly this one since son George was given Woolfe as a middle name?
George aka Gabriel b 1814 father Woolfe mother Frances married to Sarah and then Mary Ann?
George had this brother in London.
Empire (Sydney, NSW : 1850 - 1875) Friday 27 December 1867
DEATH
On the 2nd of October, at his residence, Backchurch-lane, Commercial Road, London, Lewis Moss, aged 42 years, brother of George Moss, wine merchant, of Sydney.
There was a marriage in QLD for a George MOSS to a Jane DALY in 1871. That George may have been in Sydney in the previous decade?
Rhonda
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Rhonda
Yes we have tracked trove births, deaths funerals and addresses and core;ated tehm all.
We have a time line for all the Georges and the births and deaths of them, spuses and children.
Again nothing for Jane.
nice pick up
There was a marriage in QLD for a George MOSS to a Jane DALY in 1871. That George may have been in Sydney in the previous decade?
will look at QLD records as we know that one of George Moss' daughters, Sophia Elizabeth Clark Moss and Joseph Phillips in 1866, went to Brisbane after marriage also they had a second marriage in Brisbane.
modified to add
George Moss and Jane Daly had three daughters post marriage. They are the only births registered with father George . ]
Robyn
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following up on 1927 deaths for Jane Napthali, nee Batwell previously Moss
There is Jane Moss 1927 10400/1927 aged 84 in the Parramatta Asylum = dob 1843 close to the 1841 date for Jane Batwell. NO PARENTS GIVEN and assumed to be JAne Batwell by the other researchers.. Other 1927 Deaths for Jane Moss have parents names and can be ruled out.
However from trove:
1927 death for JANE MOSS aged 84:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/16370108?searchTerm=moss&searchLimits=l-title=35|||l-decade=192|||l-category=Family+Notices|||l-year=1927
daughter given as Mrs E Pettitt.
marriage 8138/19126 beteen Maude Moss and Ernest Pettitt possibly the Hennrietta Maude Moss born 1891/C2051 in QLD to George moss and JANE Daly
So most likely not the correct death for Jane Napthali/Moss/Batwell
So it seems We now need to find the correct death for JANE
Robyn
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Hi,
Now looking in WA for Jane Moss:
daughter Annie Leah's Marriage in WA
29yo Leah Clark (widow) Father George MOSS mother Jane BATFIELD 28 Mar 1900 Guildford, Western Australia, Australia to 40yo William Borthwick. age a bit out but that is not unusual
Leah's first marriage
1245/1894 CLARK ROBERT G to MOSS LEAH at SYDNEY
http://www.monaropioneers.com/napthalim.htm has details of her husband James Napthali's family and Everingham cousins and found some of them dying in WA also.
Can't seem to locate a death for either Leah or JAne.
I will keep looking
Robyn
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Hi Robyn,
Re the various George MOSS chaps in Sydney .... Has the City of Sydney Assessment Books helped sort these chaps out at all?
City of Sydney Assessment Books
http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/assessmentbooks/
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=499593.0
I have various offline resources, including Directories, and I can see George as a Customs Agent etc .... Do you already have the various sightings or would you like me to type them up? Offline resources include some hardcopy early NSW Electoral Rolls, so it can be a tad hard to find him without knowing a likely electorate, but with some possible clues I am happy to look further if that is of any benefit....
Cheers, JM
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MJM have pm'd you.
George the Custom Agent was previously a publican in 1833, then the secretary of the synagogue, and later publisher of the Australian, and his unmarried son George took over from him when he died.
George the Wine and Spirit Agent/publican is our George Moss he was a convict in a chain gang until 1837, and seems to have turned his life around after he marreid Sarah Ann Davis in 1839 and his son George became an estate agent after period of various activites including minor criminal ones.
Still trying to find details of the Sydney Water Court reports re George Moss deserting his illegitimmate children in Melbourne in 1872.
Robyn
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Annie Leah died & is buried in Victoria:
Death:
BORTHWICK Annie Leah age 63yrs d.1931 PRAN #2763
Father: Moss Hy
Mother: Annie BATFIELD
Fawkner Memorial Park:
BORTHWICK Annie Leah age 63yrs 01/01/1931
Location: Presbyterian, Compartment D, Grave 3351
William is buried with her in the same grave:
BORTHWICK William age 87yrs 19/09/1949
Death:
BORTHWICK Wm age 87yrs d. 1949 HBERG #10461
Father: Borthwick Walter
Mother: Agnes POLLOCK
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Well found Merlin.....
Robyn, I have received your PM :) I can already see the Wine Merchant in some directories ;D
Cheers, JM
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Merlin,
Thankyou for that find ;D
I note father's name give as Henry and mother as Batfield (same as marriage) but hmmm that depends on who was giving the info of course. ::)
I have checked all online state records but Victoria for a death of Jane Napthali am hoping to do that on Wednedsay at the State Library in Sydney.
modified to add:
Hoping JAnes death certicate may have useful inormation on George Moss
reminder the GEORGE MOSS needs to have been some one old enough to have had 2 relationships and at least 12 children before his relationship with Jane Batwell if what the researchers are claiming is true.
Robyn
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Correction
as picked up earlier by RhondaThe death of Sarah was in newspapers dated Dec 1862 and Jan 1863
Sarah Ann Moss died December 1862 not 1861 as on the TRANSCRIPTION of her death certificate.
reports in Trove for death in December 1862, and funeral January 1863
Robyn
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Hi,
Annie Leah Moss 1866 birth certificate has arrived.
The details on the copy of the original and not a transcription have in some respects made the search more difficult.
We were hoping to find George Moss' signature on the certificate to compare with other examples of his signature that we hold. Unfortunately Jane made the registration.
date of birth 20th May 1866 Place of birth Harris Street Pyrmont.(no Moss in the Sydney assessment books in Harris street)
date of registration 15th October 1866 mother's address South Head Rd (Jane's mothers address and after declaration made by law)
fathers age 40 (est dob= 1826 our George was born c1813 this is a big age difference)
Occupation storekeeper (ours was a wine and spirirt merchant/innkeeper)
Date and Place of Marriage 1861 Sydney (no record of this marriage and our George's wife dided late December 1862)
previous issue
3 females, 6 males living by first wife (in 1866 our George had 4 females and 7 males living)
2 females, 1 male living by present wife (not previous wife as others have cited)
We are tending to be more of the opinion that this is a different George Moss but so far no proff that it is not him the discrepancies just seem to grow the more we look into it.
Robyn
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So the George who married in 1861 to Jane Batwell was fathering children with Jane in 1866 and at the same time was marrying Mary Ann in 1864 and fathering her children too .... And you think there were TWO different George Moss chaps but another researcher disagrees .... Well does this other researcher have any proof that these two chaps, one in Melbourne Victoria and one in Sydney NSW are the same chap ... Just because a marriage cannot be spotted on the NSW BDM index simply does not show there was none registerd ... That index was not even prepared until the 1930s and many RChattters can find flaws with it.... including me ... I have mc from a Sydney parish that is not on that Index ... and it is from 1860s....
Was Mrs Elizabeth Fleming the midwife? She ran the PO part/time and it was a store at 64 Harris St Pyrmont in the 1860s.
Suggest: A timeline looking each time at 36-40 weeks before these Two families of Moss babies were born WHERE was George and could he be in Melboune nd Sydney at the one time!
Cheers JM
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JM
So the George who married in 1861 to Jane Batwell was fathering children with Jane in 1866 and at the same time was marrying Mary Ann in 1864 and fathering her children too
Well that is what the others assert. But our George Moss (now 1 of 5 around Sydney at that time) was still married until 30th December 1862 when his first wife Sarah Ann nee Davies died. The marriage to Jane would have been bigamous.
Was Mrs Elizabeth Fleming the midwife? She ran the PO part/time and it was a store at 64 Harris St Pyrmont in the 1860s.
not noted on the birth certificate but possible but did note the name in the Syndey Archives material.
Our George was in Sydney and Melbourne, one child died there and his second legal wife Mary Ann nee Heuston gave birth to the last child of their marraige there. Both events can be found in the Victorian BDM's. He had become a partner in a Jewellery business in Melbourne in 1870/71having sold up in Sydney. This partnership was dissolved in 1872 and he and Mary Ann returned to Singleton where here family lived. George died there in 1874 of "softening of the brain of 5 years duration".
His sale of Sydney assests and his business venture can be traced in Trove.
The George Moss from Melbourne taken to Sydney water court 1872 for deserting his 3 illegitimate children is still not determined. (postulate it might be Jane but G & MA Moss had returned to Singleton at this time.)
At the same time there were at least 3 other men of that name in Melbourne.
Robyn
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news flash:
in trove
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/result?l-decade=188&l-year=1883&q=napthlia+jane
death of JANE NAPTHLIA aged 42 in her son's residnece Kent street 1883
PROBLEM no matching death registration under any form of spelling variation.
one death in1883 with parent Thomas and Bridget but surname is Corbet and registered at MORPETH
Can't find a burial yet.
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Hi,
Thought you'd like to know that on a transcript of Albert Andrew Moss' marriage certificate to Mary Ann Barnett on 2 Sep 1884 at St Phillip's Church Sydney it lists
Albert as being 22 years, born Sydney, Residence - Kent Street Sydney, Father- George Moss, Wine Merchant, Mother - Jane Batwell,
Mary Ann Barnett, 18 years, born Hobart, Residence - Athlone Place, Sydney, Father - George Barnett, Farmer, Mother - Mary Ann Chatsworth
Witnesses - Sidney Smith and Rose Moss (This is Albert's sister and her future husband)
BIRTHPLACE/AGE/PARENT DETAILS WERE OBTAINED FROM CHURCH REGISTER NO 292
Also re George Moss being charged with deserting his three illegitimate children, both he and Jane were listed in the Victorian Police Gazette of 1872
Batwell, Jane, children of, deserted, p12. Also Moss, George, children deserted by, p 12.
Cheers,
Sherryl
I am tracing Batwell's as they are a collateral branch of my Galwey family.
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Sherryl,
many many many thanks for this information.
The Police Gazzette information is invaluable. I had looked there but not found it, but I was searching fro George Moss only I will have to look again. I assume that this is an indication that there was not a legal marriage between them.
My friend, whom I am helping, is researching her husband's family and I am directly related to him, and he (not me) is a direct descendant of George Moss aka Gabriel Moss through Mary Ann Heuston his legal second wife.(they are both in their 80's)
regards
Robyn
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Welcome Sherryl
Robyn what a fantastic gift Sherryl has shared ...
Cheers JM
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VPG - 9th Jan 1872:
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JM,
It is indeed as I cannot now get into the PRO in Melbourne and those Gazette records are not available on line it is great information.
I hope she posts another 2 times so I can PM her an email contact of the other researchers looking at BATWELL .
My friend and I have been really concentrating Moss/Davies/Heuston line but now I feel they may be able to include the Batwell children in the research we had been reluctant to include them on the material availble to us before.
George Moss son of Wolf & Frances Moss must have been an exceptional man!!! juggling 3 realtionships almost simultaneously!!!
Robyn
Thanks Merlin
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Yes thanks Merlin!
Glad I could help with some of the Jane info. Your past posts have given me a child I didn't have listed - Ernest Arthur b 1871 - I don't get to the library often to look up Vic Records.
I think I might not have all the Sarah and George children either as my numbers tally with the details recorded when Annie Leah was born - I have Mary Ann/Marian (1837-1915), Edwin James (1839 - 1841), George Wolfe Moss (1841-1902), Lewis William (1842-1870), Harry Charles (1842 - 1872), Edwin Lindsay/Edward (1844-1885), Sophie Eliza Clarke Moss (1847-1905), Sydney John (1849-1902), Lydia Sarah Ann (1851-1852), Sarah Ann (1852-1874), John William (1854-?) and Frederick Isaac (1856-1876). Have I lost count somewhere?
No wonder poor Sarah passed away in 1863.
Sherryl
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;D ;D ;D
Here's some more info .... as Peter Cundall says "and that's your bloomen lot" until next time ! (it is very late here)
1870 Melbourne Sands Dir
George MOSS, Dryburgh St, HOT
Angel MOSS (of Moss, White and Co); p.r. Rathdowne St, CARL
George MOSS (of Moss, White & Co); p.r. Clyde St, St. K
George MOSS, commission agent, 28 Little Lonsdale street east (also in the Trades entries under Brokers, Agents and Commission Agents, GENERAL)
George MOSS, general dealer, 32 Litt. Bourke street west
George MOSS, furrier, 7 Bourke st west; p.r. 16 Capel St, HOT
Peter MOSS, 176 Eastern road EM. H (IS THIS EMERALD HILL and is this of interest re the wife and 3 deserted children re Sherryl’s and Merlin’s mentions of the Vic Police Gazette, so who was Peter Moss ??? )
MOSS, WHITE and CO (Moss, G.; White, J.K.; Moss, Angel), importers and cigar manufacturers, 63 Queen St
More MOSS from that very same directory....
re Capel St HOTHAM
Capel Street, East side, from Victoria St to Bedford St
Various entries then
AT No. 6: Thomas JENNINGS then as follows on the list:
Ephraim MOSS
Alfred HIGGINSON
George MOSS
Ludwick MEYRING
Thomas SEEL
Then Shannon and Shamrock Hotel, Patrick D’Arcy
Then Queensberry St
Re Dryburgh St HOTHAM
Dryburgh St, East Side from Queensbury St to Arden St
Various entries then
84 Dryburgh St, Mrs CHARLES then as follows on the list
George MOSS
Mrs COULSELL
88 James FORSYTH
Various others until Arden St
Re Clyde St, South Side, ST KILDA
Between Grey and Acland Streets
Around the middle of the list : George MOSS others in that section of that street included a grocer, a bootmaker, a carpenter, a butcher, a carpenter and joiner, a master mariner.
Re Little Bourke St, West, between Vengeance lane and Boxers alley (great names for these side streets !)
At No. 32, George MOSS, general dealter (others were a hotel, some joiners, a locksmith, a patent collar maker, a bootmaker, a Bazaar, and a shoeing forge.
Re Bourke St west, on the North side (of course, not to be confused with Little Bourke St West !)
Between Elizabeth street and Queen St (remember that there were Knight Bros, the Australian wine merchants on corner of Bourke St and Queen St ... actually at 73 Queen St, and then also further along was the Synagogue)
So at 7 Bourke St West near to Elizabeth St was George MOSS, a furrier
You want more .... Oh well here's more !
So I can confirm that in the 1870 NSW ER
for WEST SYDNEY
Alfred MOSS, qualified to enrol : residence at 103 Princes Street (he HAD to be at least 21 years of age, to enrol)
NONE listed as George MOSS (none , not one ! see next electorate !)
for EAST SYDNEY
George MOSS, residing in Hunter St, qualified as a freeholder at 30 High St errr JM typo ! he was at 30 HILL st
George MOSS, residing in Brisbane st, qualified as a householder at 33 Brisbane St
George MOSS, residing in Victoria St, qualified as a freeholder in Victoria St
George MOSS, residing in Macquarie St qualified as his office was in Castlereagh St
George MOSS, residing in Macquarie street South, qualified as his household was in Macquarie Street South.
Cheers, JM (I have probably got lots of other bits and pieces, but here’s 5 George MOSS chaps in Sydney NSW in 1870, and 5 in Melbourne VIC in 1870 ... probably they got their names listed err ... just to keep us all alert in the 21st C)
PS, Sherryl, I am not a MOSS relative (well I don't think I am, but so many of my families were in Sydney Town before the gold rushes, so I am a tad NSW Centric !)
Edit to fix the 1870 street address from NSW ER EAST SYDNEY (I have no idea where I thought "High" could be !)
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Sherryl
Our summary and we have no birth for Frederick Isaac only a reference in the SMH in 1849 for which we have no matching birth record.
SARAH ANN Davies married 1839 died 30th December 1862
1837 Mary Anne Frances (married Cadogan/shaw)
1839 Edwin J died 1841
1841 George Wolf died 1902 married Johanna Palmer
1842 William
1842 Henry died 1876
1844 Edward died 1885 married Emma Mary Rawnsley
1844 Sydney J died 1902
1847 Sophia Eliza Clark married Joseph Phillips
1849 ???? unnamed son (smh) possibly Frederick I d 1876
1851 Lydia S A died 1852
1852 Sarah A married Albert Aaron Russell
1854 John W married Mary Farrell
= 8 boys 4 girls
JANE BATWELL "married 1861" died 1883 married 2 James Napthali 1875
1862 Albert married Mary Ann Barnett
1863 Rebecca died 1877 married Joseph Gardiner
1865 Rose died 1919 married Sydney Smith
1866 Annie Leah died 1931 (melb) married 1. Robert Clark 2. William Borthwick
MARY ANN HEUSTON married 1864 married 2 Elias Abel
1864 Lydia J
1867 Leopold Alfred George married Deborah Leah Mandelson
1869 Amy F died 1870 (melb)
1871 Ernest Arthur (melb)
regards
Robyn
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hello All,
I am the original author of the webpage that Regross references on the first page of this chat.
Rose Moss is my great Grandmother, hence my interest.
I need to clear a few things up in regards to the children of Jane Batwell and George Moss.
I have come to the conclusion that Jane and George had 3 children, 2 girls, 1 boy. Below are the proofs/findings.
1: The death notice in the SMH for Jane only mentions the 3 children, not 4.
2: I have never found a birth certificate for Rose. On her marriage and death cert, she mentions a birth date of 1864. This seems very close to Rebecca.
3: I have the marriages for Annie, Albert and Rose. No Rebecca
a: A Rebecca Moss did marry a Joseph Gardiner, however the parents of Rebecca are lisrted as Mary Kain and Jospeh Moss. The parents (mother in particular) name are not remotely like "Bridget Batwell (nee Devan)
4: I have the deaths for Annie, Albert and Rose, no Rebecca.
5: With the above proofs, I have come to the conclusion, that Rebecca is indeed Rose.
Rebecca did not marry Joseph Gardiner. See point 3a above. In addition, I have this certificate if anyone wishes it.
I have assumed that despite that a marriage to George Moss being noted on the birth certificates in 1860, that there was no marriage foe whatever reason.
I have seen the newspaper advert ( http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13203176?searchTerm=%22george+moss%22 for George selling up in Sydney in April 1870, and moving to Melbourne. Unsure of exactly why he went there.
As to the warrant, it was issued in Victoria, not NSW, thus jane and the kids were still there in 1872, George was back in Sydney.
Jane married James Napthaly in 1874. Whilst it was after the death of George, it is unsure if the marriage to James was the result of george's death. What is of interest, is that Janes sister, Ann Batwell, married benjamin Napthaly (brother to James) in 1858, some 16 years before Jane married James.
I have the following certs/transcripts for anyones use: (Batwell/Moss)
Bridget Batwell (nee devan): Death
Thomas Batwell: Death
Jane Batwell: Birth, Marriage & Death
Rose Moss: Wedding & Death
Rebecca Moss: birth
Annie Leah Moss: Birth & Marriage
Rebecca Moss: (not related) marriage to Joseph Gardiner
Albert Moss: Birth & Marriage
James Napthali: Death
Hope this helps,
Bart Smith
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I stumbled across another death notice on Jane Napthali (nee Batwell). See here: http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/111029478 (http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/111029478)
The Friends of ALBERT MOSS are respectfully invited to attend the funeral of his deceased MotherJane Napthali ; from his residence, 401, Kent-street, at 1:30 p.m. Tomorrow (Sunday), for the necropolis. KINSELA, Undertaker.
So.... Given that Charles Kinsela was the undertaker, has anyone got access to the Kinsela Burial registers that can look up where she might be buried?
Assuming the necropolis was rookwood, I have searched their online database, but no luck. Hopefully a headstone might shed a bit more light.
Any assistance appreciated.
Bart Smith
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Regross [Robyn] died last year. Thank you to Sarah for posting the information on her membership status.
Interred at Necropolis Independent
http://www.rookwoodcemetery.com.au/index.php/search-online
Jane NAPTHALI
MT [Methodist] Section 01
Row N/A
Block/Plot N/A
Number 0000127
Grave image - No Image
From my resource
Interred at Independent Methodist Section 1 Row 5 Graves 126 & 127
Albert August NAPTHALI
9 Feb 1917 70 years
Jane NAPTHALI
2 Aug 1927 77 years
Wife of above
Emily Mary Elizabeth NAPTHALI
9 Aug 1929
(Ciscie) Wife of H J NAPTHALI
Horace Joseph NAPTHALI
1 Jan 1952
Husband of the above
Cando
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Thank you Cando and Thank you Sarah
Robyn and I worked on George Moss online and off, and I still have my scribbled working notes tucked away. I intended getting these out over this coming weekend. I will make sure I do and will check and re-check to see how I can further Bart's quest.
She was a fine researcher.
JM
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Obit to the Jane Naptholi who died in 1927, widow of A.A. Naptholi
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article85955129 which gives details of children and grandchildren
regards,
Ros
and some death notices http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article16394169
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Thankyou Cando for the information on the Napthali's, however the Jane Napthali (nee batwell) I am looking for died 11 Aug 1883, and the funeral was held 12 Aug 1883.
The entry you posted was for Jane Napthali (nee lamb) married 1893 to Albert Napthali.
My only hope at this stage is to check Kinsela's records to see where was interred at.
Bart Smith
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Welcome Bart to RChat
May I ask if you have Jane's dc as it should give denomination for the 1880s burial.. If not please dont order it as I have not yet checked my file. I am not a rellie just an RChatter with an addiction to : NSW centric family history.
Rookwood has a number of online databases and some were recently amalgamated. Some are still stand alone. There are also CDs with Transcriptions of many gravestones. So may I please ask for a day or so for the regulars here at RChat to refresh our memories so we can help you to take up where Robyn had got to...
Again Welcome
JM
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Thanks for the welcome JM.
I have been unable to find a death certificate for Jane, as I have tried every derivation of the surnames Napthali, Moss and Batwell. Given that she died in Aug 1883, I have even searched for every person named Jane who died in 1883 in NSW... No names stick out there....
What I do know about Jane:
B: 03 Apr 1841 (have BC)
had 3 children to a George Moss
1: Albert (b 1862, have BC) mother living at Hill St. Mother listed as "Jane Batwell", and birth registered as a surname of Morris. Father "George Morris", born London, age 39, occupation, storeman. The age given is 9 years younger that what George really is.
2: Rebecca "Rose" (b 1863, have BC) Mother Jane Batwell, living at Liverpool St. Father, George Moss, 41 years, storeman. 1 boy living from marriage, marriage in 1861 (no marriage cert ever found)
3: Annie Leah (b 1866, have BC) Mother Jane Batwell, living South Head Rd, birth at harris St Pyrmont. father is George Moss, storekeeper, 40 yr old, born London. 3f, 6 m living from 1st wife, 2f, 1 m living by previous wife.
Married Albert Napthali 10 Oct 1874.
On Jane's death it was reported in the SMH by her son, Albert (11 Aug 1883)
NAPTHLIA.-August 11, at the residence of her son, Albert Moss,
Kent-street, Jane Napthlia, in the 42nd year of her age, leaving a son and two daughters to mourn their loss. Beloved by all who knew her.
Albert also listed details about the funeral in the SMH:
THE Friends of ALBERT MOSS are respectfully invited to attend the funeral of his deceased mother, Jane Napthali ; from his residence, 401, Kent-street, at 1:30 p.m. tomorrow(Sunday), for the necropolis. KINSELA, Undertaker.
The mystery still remains as to which George Moss was the father of her children, however Annie's birth certificate gives the strongest clue regarding the children prom previous marriages.
Hope this helps,
Bart
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:)
Hi Bart,
Re Jane
:) Do we know what information is on James NAPTHALI's dc/headstone? particularly what the informant gave as to any children from his marriage with Jane.
This morning I have re-worded and condensed some notes re Jane. I apologise if these are somewhat confronting as I am basically wondering IF the registration was finalised. I have not yet found whether I had searched the Rookwood cemetery records for Jane. I will get on with that task shortly.
The notes will likely take up a full 5000 character post restriction. So please see my next post.
Cheers, JM
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JM NOTES
The Friends of ALBERT MOSS are respectfully invited to attend the funeral of his deceased MOTHER, Mrs Jane NAPTHALI, from his residence, 401 Kent Street, at 1:30 pm TOMORROW (Sunday) for the necropolis. Kinsela, Undertaker
Then there's
The Friends of Mr James NAPTHALI are respectfully invited to attend the funeral of his late WIFE Jane; to move from her son’s residence, 401 Kent street at half past 1 o’clock on Sunday for the Necropolis. Kinslea, Undertaker.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/111029478 Evening News, Sat 11 August 1883.
NAPTHLIA August 11, at the residence of her son, Albert Moss, Kent Street, Jane Napthlia, in the 42nd year of her age, leaving a son and two daughters to mourn their loss. Beloved by all who knew her.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13541772 SMH 13 Aug 1883.
From the above three cuttings we can see that Albert MOSS was NOT the son of James Napthali. BUT those cuttings do NOT confrm who was the father of Jane’s two daughters. Jane and James were married in 1874, ie when Jane was around 33 years of age.
Re the elusive dc registration for Jane.
Perhaps we need to try to find the likely series of registration nos. Sydney was the BDM district that covered the then boundaries for the City of Sydney. So for example, the BDM district for the registration of the death of Walter GREAVES who died Aug 6, 1883 the dearly beloved son of Edward and Caroline Greaves, Croydon is Canterbury. (Australian Town & Country)
NSW BDM districts have different geographical boundaries from the Local Government Boundaries. In fact each NSW government department’s “boundaries” differed from each other. The NSW BDM registration numbers in that era, particularly for Sydney and Sydney metro districts are usually allocated quarterly, with “Sydney” allocations coming first each quarter.
So August is in the third quarter. So Walter Greaves is in Canterbury and is # 2751. So Jane’s number MUST be lower than that as we are looking for a Sydney registration.
From the Sydney Morning Herald 11 August 1883 we can see that C Kinsela, Undertaker, Balmain and 116 Oxford St, Sydney was the funeral director for the funeral of a Mr John MURPHY, a Blacksmith, late of Grafton Wharf, leaving St Patrick’s for the Necropolis at 1 o’clock sharp for the Neocropolis. (There are quite a few notices for that chap, including a Solemn Requiem High Mass) That chap was the late Treasurer of the I OO F M U (Lodge) and their members were to move from St Patricks Church, Church Hill at 1:15pm per train to the Necropolis. . He was aged 68 years.
So there were at least two funerals heading to Rookwood that Sunday afternoon, perhaps with just a half hour between them, John Murphy’s may well have been delayed by the numbers at the railway station gathering to board the train and that in turn may have caused a delay for Jane Napthali’s carriage/s too... particularly once at Rookwood with the need to have the “hearse” carriage shunted back and forth….
Of course that does NOT excuse the lack of a registration number for her death, but it does give us the likely series of numbers for the dc for Jane. The responsibility for doing the actual paperwork at the BDM office was somewhat misunderstood and it was not until post WWI that the guidelines made it clearly the responsibility of the funeral director to register the death. In the 1880s, the death ought to have been notified to the registrar by the head of the household where she died, and in turn the Medico then confirms the death and in turn the Reg Gen’s local office (sometimes the police or a magistrate or a JP even) authorisd the burial so that the burial could proceed with the interim order (a burial order) then the formal registration was able to be completed after the funeral by the funeral director’s attendance at the Reg Gen Office (or if not in Sydney, at a deputy registrar offices).
So, John Murphy’s dc is likely no. 2416, and registered at Balmain (ie that is the BDM district that prepared the burial order for the funeral director, and that is the district that the funeral director reported to confirming he had buried John Murphy) . He was aged 68 years.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13541733 SMH 11 Aug 1883.
There was at least a third funeral for the Necropolis on that Sunday afternoon, organised by one of the Kinsela funeral directors. Mr Patrick MADDEN senior, late of Pyrmont, to the Necropolis at 1 o’clock. He was aged 84 years, died at Pyrmont, registered Sydney. (Pyrmont being within the Sydney BDM distrct !) His registration no. is 1348.
So in my opinion we are looking for a registration no. for Jane, in the series around 1300-1400.
I will send a PM to someone who may have a disc that may have search options to see if there are any numbers missing from the index in that series, and errr …. Who may also have a brighter idea than mine re searching for Jane’s dc
Cheers, JM
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For Bart
Sometimes it is better to put "least" amount of info into a search engine, so perhaps "Jane" and "1883" where possible may just turn up the tiniest clue that can lead to the breakthrough.
Rookwood Cemetery current online indexes
http://www.rookwoodcemetery.com.au/index.php/search-online
http://www.rookwoodindependent.com.au/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=11
http://search.catholiccemeteries.org.au/
http://www.rookwoodjewishcemetery.com.au/page/search-for-a-grave
http://austcemindex.com/cemetery.php?id=867 (Rookwood Old Presbyterian)
Info about Rookwood and where records can be accessed
http://www.sag.org.au/helping-you/rookwood-cemetery.html
http://www.nla.gov.au/research-guides/cemetery-records
http://www.australiancemeteries.com/nsw/auburn/rookwood.htm
Fingers crossed, there's hours of possible searchings there.
Cheers, JM
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...Burial registers that can look up where she might be buried? Assuming the necropolis was rookwood, I have searched their online database, but no luck.
Jane is buried in the Old Catholic Section of Rookwood - obviously with errors on the index:
James NAPTHLIA age 46yrs
Service Date: 12 Aug 1883
Register Number: 15242
Burial Type: Burial
Location: Section Grave Mortuary 1
Area: 6
Grave: 66
Also interred with her:
David SILVA age 2hrs
Service date: 30 Jul 1879
http://search.catholiccemeteries.org.au/
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JM, wow! What a post. I spent ages last night going through the NSW BDM and looking at the numbers. No joy though
Merlin: many thanks for your help. Was getting there! That is the second time I have seen Napthali spelt Napthlia.
It does however deepen the mystery even more. Why is she interred with someone with the name "Silva" This name does not even feature anywhere in the family tree! I have found the associated birth, and the parents aren't related to her... Grrrr....
The next time I am in Sydney, looks like I am going for a wander around Rookwood!
Again, many thanks.
Bart
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David SILVA, son of Laurianus J and Rosanna. NSW BDM #1297. Registered Sydney.
Well found Merlin :)
Cheers, JM
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There is no headstone for either Jane NAPTHALI/NAPTHLIA or David SILVA at Rookwood Catholic.
Cando
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It is of course possible that the registration was not completed, or when the NSW BDM indexes were being prepared that the entry was missed, or when the indexes were converted to EDP indexing that the card was missed.
My old floppy disc index has of course not been accessed for many a year, and OH assures me that even if we found a drive for it, that the NSW BDM discs themselves have deteriorated and are now OOO for ever.
We need to find an RChatter who is Sydney based and who knows their way around Rookwood.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=667459.0
Cheers, JM
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Hi
Do we know who was buried next to Jane ? I have an Aaron Brown who died 15 May 1926, Father William mother Eliza. He is on the BDMs under the name of Broughton ( name of the person in the next grave at Canterbury Cemetery).
Muss
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Do we know who was buried next to Jane ?
Adjoining graves:
ALMEDO William 09 Jun 1879 22yrs - M1.6.65
FEENEY Mary 01 Jul 1879 40yrs - M1.6.67
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Muss,
Jane (James) is buried at SEC*M1*6**66
Adjoining burial sites:
Almedo, William 09 Jun 1879 22 SEC*M1*6**65
Feeney, Mary 01 Jul 1879 40 SEC*M1*6**67
A quick search turned up zilch there. But thankyou for the idea!
Bart
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I have NOT found any entry at NSW BDM online index for
reference no. 1365/1883.
I can find burials or newspaper cuttings covering the registrations BDM references 1300 to 1400, and these are all Sydney district and all August 1883.
I cannot find 1365 ;D
I will send an email enquiry to NSW BDM :)
Cheers, JM
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Hi Everyone,
Just a query, does anyone know how Gabriel/George met his wives - Sarah Ann and Mary Ann?
Cheers,
Sherryl.
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Also does anyone have George/Gabriel's death certificate?
Cheers,
Sherryl