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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: anne diston on Tuesday 03 April 12 00:32 BST (UK)
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wanted to talk with relatives of hugh and isabella clifford whose children included william annie james hugh john and sam who lived in Lanarkshire in 1911 census
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Hughs parents were meant to be john and barbara Clifford. barbara was supposedly from america ,Hugh was meant to have been born Barony Glasgow could someone do a look up in 1991 census I cant find him and wonder if he was born in another country?
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Hi Anne
Welcome to RootsChat :)
I have merged your two topics together as it helps to keep requests together so that people get a better understanding of the info needed and also what searches have been done so far.
Monica
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Anne, what do you estimate Hugh's birth year to be? When did he marry Isabella? What his mother Barbara's maiden name from his certificates and father John's occupation?
From the names you give for their children, this 1901 census entry would fit - which is what is confusing me re possible ages for Hugh!
Hugh Clifford 34, checkweigher b. Newarthill, Lanarkshire
Isabella Clifford 32 b. Ireland
William Clifford 12
Samuel Clifford 10
Annie Clifford 8
James Clifford 6
Hugh Clifford 4
John Clifford 22, boarder, Coal Miner Hewer b. Carfin, Lanarkshire
Address: Motherwell Rd 4 Benburl Cott, Holytown
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Hi Monica,saw that one.Confused too as that seems to be them but his father is a William.
There are two records of a Barbara Clifford on incoming passenger lists from New York to Glasgow.
First is May 1909 on the California
Second May 1913 on the Cameronia.
However her birth is 1854 so can't be this Hugh's mother ???
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Hi George :)
Stuck now for a bit until Anne comes back on!
Monica
PS: Struggling to find this 1901 Clifford family in 1891.
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I think they are in Stoke-on-Trent Monica.If it is him he is a professional footballer.
Hugh 25 born Lanarkshire
Isabella 23 born Ireland
William 2
Samuel 8 months.
If it is the same Hugh,this is him.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hughie_Clifford
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Odd, as I think that this is the Hugh Clifford that you've both found.
Birth - Holytown/Bothwell
Hugh Birnie Clifford 26 Jan 1866 , Newarthill
Parents - William Clifford, coal miner and Ann Jane m.s. Mercer
gnu
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Hi gnu,yes I think this Hugh's father was a William,yet all his children's names fit with those Anne gave ???
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I thought that, George - they married 1858 and Ann Jane showing as b. Ireland on the 1861.
gnu
Added - no marriage between a John Clifford and a Barbara in Scotland 1855-1920
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Wonder if there is some confusion somewhere,could that John,boarder on the 1901 be anything to do with it.
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Just checked Hugh Clifford b. Lanarkshire 1855 - 2009 and nothing in Barony.
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Can't find anything for Barony either gnu,only thing I would bet on at this moment is the trail will eventually lead to Ireland.
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Just looked at the 1911 family that Anne mentions and they are definitely the same family as the one that we've found. I'm not sure where Barbara comes from :-\
gnu
Added - both William and Ann Jane and Isabella were b. Ireland. William and Ann Jane married according to the forms of the RC Church
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Thought it might gnu,my Clifford line were Irish Roman Catholics,no relation to Anne's that I can see though.Do you think the Barbara that is on the passenger lists from New York to Glasgow in 1909 and 1913 could be something to do with it.
Things can get mixed up.I remember as a child at a new school in England telling everyone during a geography lesson that I had an aunt in California,thinking it was the sunny American one,it was actually the small mining village in Scotland ;D
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The only John and Barbara Clifford (as a married couple) that I can find (used Family search) are on the 1900 US Census in Shamokin, Pennsylvania.
John was b. 1843 Poland/Aust and Barbara was b. 1848 in Pennsylvania.
I don't think that they are anything to do with Hugh ;D ;D ;D
gnu
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Found what might be the answer on at least two Ancestry trees (unsourced):
Hugh Clifford b. Lanarkshire d. Heidelberg, Victoria 1956
Parents - John Clifford and Barbara English
Spouse - Annie May Turner
Make of this what you will
gnu
Added - The Hugh Clifford who died in Victoria in 1956 was born circa 1898. parents are given as ??
The only Hugh Clifford b.c. this time in Scotland was the son of Hugh and Isabella!
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Think we have the correct family and that Barbara might have been a red herring :-\
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,579458.msg4413262.html#msg4413262
son of william and anne jane Clifford nee masser or mason hugh married isabella Blair and one of their children hugh i believe is my grandfather
:)
gnu
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Leading on from the last post, I've been looking at Cheryl's postings. She is a descendant of Hugh Clifford and has lots of info, including this account of his death:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,530019.msg3846156.html#msg3846156
gnu
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Aha the mist is clearing gnu.Interesting that County Kerry is mentioned as that is where I think my Cliffords may be from originally.I have been off backtracking to see if there was any link but can find none apart from my GGG grandfather Daniel was born in Lanarkshire.
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I think you have my Hugh!
If you want to PM I can give you some info.
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Thank you all for the help you have given me for finding my grandfather hugh CliffordI am pretty sure that William and Isabella are his parents My mother was the one who told me about the parents being called John and Barbara and that she had a certificate with their names on it but when I went home for easter we looked for it amongst her private papers and could not find it. She has been wrong about a few things including the fact that she believed her mother came out to melbourne by herself but I discovered she came out with a cousin. my mother now has dementia and has never been interested in genealogy. Cheryl do you know much about the children of Hugh and Bella not sure when Hugh came out to Australia he married my grandmother in australia in 1928
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I know a lot about Hugh and Isabella's children - I have some photos of some of them. I know a little bit about your grandfather too (assuming he is the right man). I think I have some records on him in my family tree mess! I know about Hugh and Isabella's parents and also brothers and sisters too. They lived in the village I still live in now, and if your grandfather is the son of Hugh and Isabella I also know that he lived in this village too. Hugh Snr. was a relatively successful footballer in his younger days.
I have a record for a Hugh Clifford, born abt 1897 who married a Jane Shiels in 1921 in Carfin - he is Hugh and Isabella's son. This would be the Hugh who is your grandfather - I think! Do you know what year he died and where?
I will send you a PM on here with my e-mail address as it will be easier to communicate through e-mail, I think - if you don't mind.
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There are Cliffords buried in St Pats cemetery New Stevenston
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My g grandfather is in St Pats alongside his wife!
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cheryl I have Hughs birth date and place of birth from list of soldiers in 2nd world war. Also have my grandmothers wedding certificate. hugh and my grandmother Annie may Turner both worked for primeminister Stanley Bruce she was the house maid and hugh was the chaufeur and gardener. when they married my grandmother was 7 months pregnant Hugh was 7 years younger than Annie May The marriage did not last long as he had shell shock bought on from the first world war.The only stories we have heard about him is that he was in the merchant navy during the war and won a medal something to do with a smoke screen. In later years he was known to work in Myers in the lift. He died in Heidleberg repatriation hospital I think 1956 from emphysema and bronchitis next of kin said a sister t.Smith and that he had never been married or had any children!I have his death certificate I was wondering if he left his first wife or if she died .Annie May did not divorce him and was T Smith really his sister so many mysteries>I will post a photo which my grandmother kept in a locket when my husband is around as I dont know how to do that anne
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Hi Anne,
I don't think your grandfather and his first wife had nay kids, though I'm sure they did adopt one son - not 100% on that.
You may be able to get some more of his war records on ancestry. I don't know an awful lot more about him but I can email you some pictures of Hugh and some info on his family.
I will email
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Could T. Smith be a nursing sister?
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Hi everyone,
I found a death for Hugh Clifford b 1897 from my tree (mother Isabella, and father Hugh) on Scotland's People but it's in Lanarkshire, 1956.
I also found a record for a Hugh Clifford in Heidelberg, Victoria in 1956 - this is the record Anne believes to be her grandfather's.
On the SP record it says "married to Jane Shiels" - which he was as he married her in 1921 in Carfin. However, Anne's grandfather moved to Australia and married again in 1928 - it would appear that this other marriage is not on the Scottish record.
Could these records be for the same people or have Anne and I got some wires crossed somewhere?
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...I will post a photo which my grandmother kept in a locket when my husband is around as I dont know how to do that anne
Have you both been able to compare photos you each have for your Hughs?
Monica
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I found this tree on ancestry.com and all details seem to match up with what Anne has said - (parents' names and death place etc.):
Hugh Clifford, parents John Clifford and Barbara English, married to Annie May Turner.
I cannot get access to this tree as I do not have the correct subscription to access it.
We may have our wires crossed afterall. Monica, I do not have a photo of the Hugh of my tree but Anne's grandfather and my great grandfather do look remarkably alike, which is throwing me!!
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I have Hughs birth date and place of birth from list of soldiers in 2nd world war.
What exactly does this show Anne?
Also have my grandmothers wedding certificate.
What does this say regarding Hugh, Anne? His parents' names I would imagine would be included on this (?), his age, witnesses etc?
He died in Heidleberg repatriation hospital I think 1956 from emphysema and bronchitis next of kin said a sister t.Smith and that he had never been married or had any children!I have his death certificate I was wondering if he left his first wife or if she died .Annie May did not divorce him and was T Smith really his sister so many mysteries>I will post a photo which my grandmother kept in a locket when my husband is around as I dont know how to do that.
Any details from this section will also help. What did his death cert say relating to him - parents, age etc.
Any luck tracing this potential sister, T Smith (electoral rolls, marriage/death entries etc.)?
Monica
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Just to discount him and for the record, now that I have found him on the 1901 Irish census, this is the only Hugh Clifford I can see on shipping manifests in later years to Canada/US and back to UK (nothing to Australia/NZ).
From 1901 - www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Fermanagh/Kilmore/Curradillar/1358317/
Cannot see any other shipping entries or WW1 military service papers for any relevant Hugh born in Scotland or Ireland c. 1897-9 which is a pity :-\
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Just to discount him and for the record, now that I have found him on the 1901 Irish census, this is the only Hugh Clifford I can see on shipping manifests in later years to Canada/US and back to UK (nothing to Australia/NZ).
From 1901 - www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Fermanagh/Kilmore/Curradillar/1358317/
Cannot see any other shipping entries or WW1 military service papers for any relevant Hugh born in Scotland or Ireland c. 1897-9 which is a pity :-\
This looked promising to me:
http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?ti=0&indiv=try&db=bt26&h=1019286&ppvhash=a3bb2f0fd773cad74717da51f2f8c143000039b9e6389fdc
H Clifford, 57 (b. 10 Nov 1897) left Sydney Australia on the 'Oronsay' arriving in London on 9 May 1955
This medal card has no details on birth or location etc:
http://search.ancestry.com/iexec?htx=View&r=an&dbid=1262&iid=30850_A000337-01887&fn=Hugh&ln=Clifford&st=r&ssrc=&ppvhash=f134a57af13910088eb211153cd7f182000039b9e63b1cb5&pid=1720606
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Clever you Cheryl, missed searching for an H Clifford :P Certainly a possibility. How does this birth date compare I wonder with the Australian and the Lanarkshire Hugh?
The medal card, given the regiment, I thought might belong to the Hugh from the 1901 Irish census perhaps?
Monica
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Clever you Cheryl, missed searching for an H Clifford :P Certainly a possibility. How does this birth date compare I wonder with the Australian and the Lanarkshire Hugh?
The medal card, given the regiment, I thought might belong to the Hugh from the 1901 Irish census perhaps?
Monica
You could be right Monica. However, my great grandfather enlisted with an Irish regiment even though he lived in Lanarkshire.
My Hugh was born 1897, not sure of the exact date - Anne has the birth as 1898.
If that is him returning on the record I posted then him dying in 1956 in Lanarkshire and not Australia would make sense - though the Australian death record throws it out a bit.
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The H Clifford arriving in the UK shows as English and a Textile Director so don't think it is him unfortunately :-\
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The H Clifford arriving in the UK shows as English and a Textile Director so don't think it is him unfortunately :-\
Have just taken a look at the original paper - you are right! Thought I was onto something there! :(
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A closer one might be another H Clifford, a labourer, arriving in London from Australia on the 'Osterley' in Feb 1929. He shows as resident in Australia and gives a Scottish address for the UK, 7 Kildale Street, Rutherglen.
He shows as aged 28, but as you know, ages were seldom precise on records in those days.
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A closer one might be another H Clifford, a labourer, arriving in London from Australia on the 'Osterley' in Feb 1929. He shows as resident in Australia and gives a Scottish address for the UK, 7 Kildale Street, Rutherglen.
He shows as aged 28, but as you know, ages were seldom precise on records in those days.
Seems more likely. If Anne gives the details from the death and marriage certs. it may clear some things up.
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This death notice for the 1956 Heidelberg death
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article72534277
matches with the man who has a digitised war record for world war 2 on naa.gov.au.
CLIFFORD HUGH : Service Number - VX12010 : Date of birth - 12 Nov 1898 : Place of birth - LANARK SCOTTLAND : Place of enlistment - CAULFIELD VIC : Next of Kin - SMITH T
Elsewhere in the service record it gives sister's full name as Tottie Smith and an address in Caulfield (although the death notice says she is a friend). He has crossed out widowed and married and written single.
regards,
Ros
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Hi Ros
Thanks for all the extra bits of info :)
We are having a real problem with that birth date for a Hugh Clifford :-\ There isn't one to be found in the whole of Scotland for that period, except for the son of Hugh and Isabella, as has been discussed throughout the thread. Also, for 1911, there looks to only be one Hugh Clifford in the whole of Scotland in the right age range, again likely to be the son of Hugh and Isabella.
I have mentioned to Anne that checking what Hugh himself stated for his parents' details on that 1928 marriage cert would help hopefully. I tried adding on the names we have so far for possible parents to search fields here https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/index-search?action=getHistIdxSearchCriteria - whilst the 1928 marriage shows on the index, adding parents names we have as possibles (Hugh/Isabella and John/Barbara) returned a nil result.
Wonder what Tottie stands for?
Monica
Added: Tottie maybe a pet name for Charlotte? www.whatsinaname.net/php/search.php?action=search2&search_name=tottie
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The photo of Anne's grandfather and my great grandfather are so similar!
Also, with there being no record of John or Barbara I am more inclined to believe that Anne's grandfather may well be the Hugh from my tree.
I was told that he left Carfin not long after he married in 1921, which would make sense. Unfortunatley I can't access my Hugh's wife's death record online as she died in 1984. I will endeavour to speak to some neighbours to see if they can confirm some more things about Hugh.
There is ofcourse, the off chance that if he was moving away to a new country for a new life that he may have altered some of his details - then again, I could be down the wrong route completely!
My own family who I have got in contact with through genealogy do not remember my great grandfather William ever talking about his brother Hugh - they were not aware that he had one called Hugh, though William did sign his death record in Lanarkshire in '56.
Does look to me as though all of these details are just coincidental and they are not the same man, though.
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are you sure william signed his brothers death certificate in 1956 maybe he was signing his fathers death certificate? Hugh jnr was in his 50s when he died in 1956
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The death record I have for Hugh b 1897 was signed by William in Lanarkshire in 1956.
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In the Victorian Electoral Rolls
1931 and 1936 Hugh Clifford, gardener, is living by himself (I mean no others of same surname at that address) in Fawkner, Toorak.
Annie May Clifford is living in same area but different address (with no others of same surname at that address)
If they were married in 1928 it seems that they split up fairly soon afterwards ...?
Ann did you tell us what was on the marriage certificate about his parents and age? Is there a birth certificate for the child or children of Hugh and Annie May?
cheers,
Ros
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Yes they did split up soon after their only child was born. They met each other when she was the cook/maid and he was the gardener chaffeur for prime minister Stanley Bruce and his wifes house in Melbourne.I do have my mothers birth cert. and will get hugh and annies cert.which I thought I had
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maybe William, Hughs brother did sign his death certificate or something similar as he had no next of kin in Australia.that he acknowledged. the form that william signed did it actually say where Hugh died?
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Hi Anne
Regarding the death certificate that Cheryl has mentoned she has, this is from the statutory death registers in Scotland. By law, the death will have been registered in the locality where it took place. Included on the cert will be the usual residence for this Hugh and time and date of death.
There is no way an Australian death would be reported this way on the Scottish statutory registers. If it was to show anywhere, it would be in 'minor records' which can include foreign BMDs....but that does not seem to be the case here.
Whilst we have been talking about the similarities for both Hughs and the death year for both of 1956, might be good double check actual death date. The newspaper notice that Ros posted was on Monday 6 February 1956 (death date on 3 February). Cheryl, what was the death date in 1956 for Hugh in Lanarkshire?
Monica
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Maybe john clifford and barbara {Barbarel} English married America or Ireland or somewhere else I even wonder if their son Hugh may have had a different forename maybe john so they used a made up name for him did his parents die when he was young He was supposed to have been in the merchant navy during ww1 He was about 16 when he arrived in Australia Anyone got any ideas where I should look next?
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Cheryl I wonder if the 22 year old boarder living with your clifford family is the father of my Hugh who could be living with a relative else where do you know where the census says he was born? In the census it said he was a coal miner but that doesnt mean to say he could have been a printer later in life.
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Cheryl I wonder if the 22 year old boarder living with your clifford family is the father of my Hugh who could be living with a relative else where do you know where the census says he was born? In the census it said he was a coal miner but that doesnt mean to say he could have been a printer later in life.
Hi Anne,
Have only just noticed this reply - sorry! I'm not sure what boarder you are talking about?
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The John on the 1901 census
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Is there anyway I will find out anything more about Hugh Clifford? On his marriage certificate he claimed that his father John was a printer and his mother was Barbara English cant find any evidence that these 2 married. On his deathe certificate person giving information said he had never been married or had any children so frustating