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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Perthshire => Topic started by: LUV on Tuesday 17 May 05 16:39 BST (UK)
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Regards all :)
My line supposedly is connect to "Laird of Cragganfearne Fleming".
Now, can anybody out there tell me where exactly is Cragganfearne? How would I get more information on this particular Fleming that was the Laird?
There seems to be a jump made from my John Fleming born about 1793, who married Ann Smith and then Charlotte Wallace in Logierait Parish, Perthshire (1822 & 1831 were the marriages) back to this gentleman and I am trying to follow this supposed conneciton with documentation or something to validate the claims made ??? by some enthusiastic distant relatives!
My John Fleming's parents were supposedly John Fleming and Janet Ross who married in Dowally in about 1790. Although I do not know this as fact! Further it was supposedly this John Fleming, the one that married Janet Ross, he was the son supposedly the Laird of Cragganfearne, but again I do not know this as fact ?
Who exactly was this Laird of Cragganfearne? His full name etc. and his wife?
Any help would be appreciated immensely. I have been through the OPR at Scotland's People and the IGI....I guess I am looking for verification in text, documents or such?
Please any enlightenment would be great!
LUV
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"Cragganfearne" was a small estate of 260 acres in Athole, Perthshire in the Highlands of Scotland.
There is no known 'birth' or 'forename' of Laird Fleming on record....that has ever been found. I have been searching for the name for many years as has most of the Flemings of my family.
John Fleming (the Lairds son) married Janet Ross in Mains of Killmoric, Dowally, Perth which was about three miles southwest of Cragganfearne.
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LUV
Ontchick is right. And I have been searching for Laird Cragganfearn's christian name too. The few things that you both are missing though. Looking outside the box.
I mean: Cragganfearn was of course named after the area that he took care of. Back then you had to pay dues to the church for burial and baptism, in order for these occasions to put into the books. I mean Parish records. If no money, no recorded birth, no recorded death. Also, remember that the Jacobites war has been going on and the clans are coming together to fight for "freedom". Nearly 3000 Fleming's fought throughout the Jacobites war. If the mother's were left behind with children, they may of had to flee there homes. Hide. This may not be the case for Cragganfearn, but then again it may. His first name may have purposely vanished. I have found parish records of a Donald Fleming and Isobel Robertson baptising their 3 children in Perthshire, Tullimet. A John b 1767, Alexander b. 1770 and Janet b. 1772. This seems to fit. Laird Cragganfearn named his son after himself most likely. Therefore, Laird Cragganfearn quite possible could be named John born in same area, but in 1767 and had a brother that had children, who later married Douglas daughters. Cragganfearn Fleming marrying either a Douglas or Robertson (most likely Robertson) taking on the 270 acre land (that was in the family for 3 generations). The reason I mention Douglas or Robertson. I spoke with Jane at Blair Castle and she has documents showing who leased that 270 acres. She stated that no Fleming leased it, but 1st a Alex Douglas and 2nd a James Robertson. I believe James is Isobel Robertson's father and Laird Cragganfearn married into the land. Alot makes sense to me but I cannot prove it without a doubt. That's were you come in. You may be able to help. We may be able to help each other. Email: Moderator comment: Address removed to prevent spamming - please use the personal message facility to exchange e-mail addresses. Thank You ! Tahni
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Hi Fleming researchers
A bit of news for you. Cragganfearn was and is part of the Blair Atholl estate certainly back at least to the early 1700s. It is a farm lying east of Logierait and south of Tulliemet east of the confluence of the Rivers Tay and Tummel. The Laird of Cragganfearn was therefore either the 3th Duke of Atholl, a gentleman named John Murray (1729-1774) or the 4th Duke, also John Murray (1755-1830). The tenant of Cragganfearn in the 1740s was a man named Alexander Douglas, and his family may well have been there for sometime after that, I shall know for certain in a few days. So wherever the legend of the Fleming Laird of Cragganfearn came from it might be as well to take it with a pinch of salt, because with a Laird as powerful and longstanding as the Murray family already on the spot I doubt anyone else, (Douglases included,) stood a chance, unless they owned land in their own right elsewhere. In that case they would be Laird of the other property.
One other point which may help clarify this. In order to be a Laird one had to be a land owner so a tenant, (ie a man who rented property from the Laird or landowner) would definitely not qualify as Laird in any way shape or form.
Hope this helps and doesn't disappoint anyone too much. The information is straight from the rentals of the Atholl Estate. If anyone would like further details as this unfolds please let me know.
Have fun
Tickle
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Hi all
Herewith the details of the Douglas tenancy at Cragganfearn. They appear to have been there from around 1730 -1815, having taken over from a Cameron family who were there in 1707. Prior to that they may have been at Haugh of Tulliemet, but not as tenants.
Douglas of Craiganfearn
RENTALS
10 Dec 1730 Tack to James Douglas of Haugh in Tulliemet of Over Craggenfearn, possest by Camerons
Rental 1735 James Douglas (cannot write) pays £25 Scot
Rental 1732 Alex Douglas tack from 1738 £40 Scots 19 Poultry 40 loads of peat
Rental 1754 Alex. Douglas £68, 27 poultry, 80 (loads of) peat
Rental 1765 Alex Douglas £3.13.4 sterling
Rental 1774 - 1815 James Douglas (This is a very badly kept Rental. none of the detail.)
Camerons are shown in Cragganfearn in 1707 Rental.
Tried to trace James Douglas in Haugh of Tulliemet but find in 1727 it is tenanted by Charles Robertson. It is likely that the tack of 1730 was James Douglas's first tenancy. Also in 1730 he paid his seat rent for Dowally Church for the firt time.
Also checked the list of "Fencible Men" the Duke of Atholl's fighting men, in 1707. It lists James and Alexander Douglas at Haugh of Tulliemet as well as John Henderson the tenant, his servant, and a Daniel Douglas."
Also found:
Douglas, Daniel, 32, Laborer, Cragganfearn, Logerait, Perthshire from Greenock to N.Y., 4 September 1817 on the "William", Purinton.
Hope this helps someone
Tickle
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Hi all
A few more snippets of information again courtesy of Blair Castle Archives:
There was a Nether or Lower Craggan Fearn.
Tenants during the 18th century:
McInstalker 1707- (presumably) 1742
Robertson 1742 - 1774
More info as it arrives.
Take care
Tickle
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OK Folks
The last piece in the jigsaw: (for me anyway.)
18C Tenants at Balchallan:
1735-1742 – Alex McGillewie
1755-1765 – James and David Buttars
1774-1815 – James Buttars
That's it, I'm done! If any further information is required you will find that by writing (snailmail) direct to Jane Anderson at Blair Castle, or to Perth Local Studies, AK Bell Library, York Place, Perth, PH2 8EP (hourly fee), you will be able to obtain primary source material and copies of register entries.
Good luck Fleming descendants everywhere.
Tickle
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Morning all
The following appeared on the Perthshire Roostweb list this morning and I thought it might help get things in perspective.
"The plain fact is that apart from Lowlanders who adopted surnames much
earlier following the English style, those Scots of Norman French
descent
with mainly non Gaelic speaking ancestry and those able to link
directly on
to the Chiefly line of any of the Highland clans (the real clans not
the
made up 19th century fantasy stuff we recognise today) whose lineal
descent
was rote learned by the clan bards for generations, the remainder of
the
population simply didn't have surnames or family names before the 18th
century and without the benefit of DNA analysis really have no idea who
they
are by lineal descent and almost certainly are not who they think they
are.
The written records, with the exception of the lucky few, are simply
not
there for the overwhelming majority of the Scottish population or those
who
claim descent from them for any period pre 1780. Very few Parish
Registers
exist pre 1780 and those that do have huge gaps in them. Most people
were
too poor to waste money paying the Minister to register their marriage
or
children's baptisms, if they were baptised and anyway most ordinary
people
went through irregular marriage formats such as handfasting. Before the
Victorian era, most ordinary people made little or no distinction
between
legitimate and illegitimate children and most Lairds had lots of the
former
and often as many, if not more of the latter and no-one thought any
less of
them, especially not their half-siblings. Estate papers the length and
breadth of Scotland are full of details of Lairds making financial and
other
provision for their illegitimate offspring and as many junior army
officers
in the Peninsular Wars were the illegitimate sons of "great men" as
those
who were their sons and heirs.
I am lucky in that most of my Stirlingshire and Perthshire ancestors
are
known for between 10 and 12 generations, back to the time of the
Charles II
and hence can often be tagged on to well established family trees but
it is
still the case for most of them that cousins have to be separately
identified and second spouses disregarded to correctly place people.
As I have learned to my own cost, make no assumptions and assume
anything is
possible. It usually is!!
Keep up the good work
Mark
Mark Sutherland-Fisher
Director
Fisher (Holiday Enterprises) Ltd
email: mark[at]highland-family-heritage.co.uk"
Moderator Comment: e-mail edited, to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please replace [-- at --] with @
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I have an interest in the camerons who were tenants at Cragganfearn prior to the Douglas family.In fact the Cameron and Douglas families intermarried in the 1730's.
Anyone have info on the Camerons of Cragganfearn?
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Hi Cambron!!!
The Camerons held the rental of Craggenfearn abt 1707.
Thomas Fleming b. Feb 28, 1704 m. Elspeth Cameron b. 1709. Their children were:
Male b. Feb 1, 1736 Blair Athol
Janet b. Mar 13, 1740 " "
Elspeth b. Oct 27, 1745 " "
Donald b. June 13, 1747 " ""
Robert b. Apr. 9, 1750 " "
John b. June 25, 1752 " "
Christian b. Sept 26, 1755 " "
I am still looking for the 'Laird" Fleming and was wondering if Thomas and Elspeth's eldest son may be him? Does this family fall into your line. Any ideas would be appreciated.
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Hi Ontchick
<I am still looking for the 'Laird" Fleming and was wondering if Thomas and Elspeth's eldest son may be him? Does this family fall into your line. Any ideas would be appreciated. >
Only one question. In view of all we've discussed why would, or should he be? Sometime you may have to accept that there was no "Laird" Fleming and it's a myth dreamed up by one of your old grannies to keep up with someone else who had pretensions to nobility. Something on the lines of "My ancestor was Laird of Cragganfearn, you know."
Tickle
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Hi Tickle
Ok he wasn't a 'Laird" but he must of had a name...just trying to find out what it is.
Onchick
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Hello again
OK so how do you connect to these Thomas and Elspeth? Do you have the direct line of descent back to this couple?
Tickle
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Not sure how this web site works but I'm at Blair Castle next month researching the camerons circa 1750 so if any of you want to confirm any of the tenant records of the atholl estate let me know.
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Hello Cambron
I have the Douglas records from Craganfearne, but if you stumble over the family anywhere else on the estate, particularly in the Logierait/Dowally area 1730-1800 please make a note. I will be interested to see how you get on with the Camerons. It might be worth looking at Robertsons as well as they figure in the general area, and in a number of marriages.
Regards
Tickle
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Hello again Tickle
I dont have this information in stone but two Douglas sisters supposedly married Fleming cousins in the 1770 - 1800.
As for a direct line to Thomas and Elspeth Fleming I dont have that either but am trying to see if there is a connection.
My 3x great grandfather, Alexander Fleming, was born at Craggenfearn in1799 and was a stone mason in and around Atholl, (he is buried about 5 mins from my house); his father John Fleming was born abt 1769 in Craggenfearn and he married Janet Ross. The father of John was ??? (my Laird) sometime around 1730-1745 at Atholl, Perth.
Thomas Fleming's unnamed eldest son fits the timeline for birth of John's father. So there is the reason for my inquiry of the Fleming/Cameron family.
Any info would be greatly appreciated.
Ontchick
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Hi Ontchick
Questions I'm afraid:
What is your primary source (ie OPR,) for Alexander Fleming's birth at Craganfearn in 1799? (He wasn't, I promise!)
What is your primary source for the birth of John Fleming at Craganfearn circa 1769? (He wasn't either, on both counts.)
What is your primary source for the marriage of John Fleming and Janet Ross. (The IGI is not the primary source.)
What is the connection between Flemings in Logierait Parish (probably not Craganfearn,) and Flemings at Atholl (separate Parish, several miles away.)?
The unnamed Fleming born 1736 is likely to remain unnamed as it has for the past 270 years, so for your purposes is 99.9% useless. Your possible line of descent will be through the other 3 brothers. You have at least two, possibly three, missing generations between Alexander and Thomas and Elspeth. The only way you will sort this out is by lookiing at primary sources which are located at Perth and Blair Atholl. No amount of gazing at the IGI is going to sort out your family back into the 18th century. Can I suggest that you invest a few dollars and write to the AK Bell library in Perth and ask them to do the research for you. It will cost you but it will get either rid of, or set in stone, all your suppositions. There is no guarantee that the information you seek is even available, but only by going to the fountainhead wil you ever find out. The ladies at Perth are both charming and very helpful and there is a stack of sources there which will help you.
Sorry to play devil's advocate, but if it's the whole truth you are after there is really only one way to find it. Ignore the 'legend' for the moment and try and find your real family. If all of a sudden the legend fits the known FACTS then so well and good. If it doesn't, forget it!
Tickle
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Has there been any further information verified about the Flemings? I also descend from the Flemings and am new to RootsChat. I was given the same information that is now being questioned.
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Hi Suzie Q
As far as I know, no further correspondence or information has been revealed since this last in Nov 06. As far as I know none of my questions have been answered, and if they have, they haven't been shared. You may hear from the other correspondents in due course. Assuming that the questions haven't been answered with FACTS, then the state of play is the same as it was, and you will either have to do your own research along the suggested lines, or accept the FACTS that you have at your disposal.
Good luck!
Regards to all
Tickle
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Boy did I wonder onto an old post. ???
Hello all,
I beleive I am related to James Robertson and Grizel Cameron married Nov 12, 1774.
Their son James Robertson b Sep 1, 1780 in Tulliallam
Most of their descendants were born in Logierait and Little Dunkeld.
Besides scotlandspeople, is there a list of death information or parish records for Tulliallam or Tulliemet (are these the same?)? I am also looking for the same information from Logierait.
Thank you
Arleen
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Hi Arleen
Try this link for Logierait
http://www.npfhg.org/LogieraitBurials.pdf
Yours Aye
BruceL
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Part 1 – see part 2 and part 3 posted following this post…
I found the name Laird Cragganfearne (with or without e) Fleming on an ancestory.ca family tree. I was lead there based on my own searches for family history (Agnew's of Dundalk, Grey County, Ontario, Canada). He is shown as the father of a Joseph John Fleming born 1769 Dowally, Perthshire, Scotland and died at 65 in 1834 in Ballachraggan, Perthshire, Scotland. in 1841 he resideded in Perthshire, Scotland. My original connection to the Fleming family was through James Agnew (born in April 28th 1824 in Ireland (county Antrim). He married Jessie (Jessica) Janet Fleming (born in 1828 in Scotland). They married and relocated to Canada, Derby, Grey County, Ontario, Canada). James Agnew died March 14, 1905 in Owen Sound, Ontario Canada (Derby is near Owen Sound). His wife Jessie (Jessica) Janet Fleming died in May 6th, 1918 in Owen Sound, Ontario Canada.
After some research I have found the name Jessie and Janet used both in the Fleming and Agnew families various generations. It seems to be a popular set of names. However, after being lead to this particular name Laird Cragganfearne Fleming I am not sure they are actually part of my family history. However, after reading the various reports on Laird Cragganfearne Fleming I thought that I might suggest that you may wish to consider the following:
LAIRD is often used as a first or middle name and is likely derived from a Family Surname. So this may simply be the Christian or First name of this particular Fleming. Also, it may be possible that a person may be given a name most likely a middle name based on a place their family resided. For example I know someone with the middle name Atholl, which is the name he uses. Cragganfearn or Cragganfearne may be their middle name and represents an area the family once lived. Something to consider and if this is the case, the name LAIRD is simply a first name not a particular title given to a land owner in Scotland.
There is on the web a reference to Laird Cragganfearn Fleming as well. It can be found at the following link: http://www.selectsurnames.com/fleming.html
It reads:
The Fleming surname has cropped up in various other places in Scotland. There was the Laird Cragganfearn Fleming in Perthshire. David Fleming was an 18th century Glasgow merchant whose descendants were graziers in Australia.
I also found this information on the web discussing Cragganfearn:
http://www.scotlandsruralpast.org.uk/index.php?option=com_comprofiler&task=userProfile&user=423&Itemid=147
The following is towards the bottom of the page…..
The settlement of Cragganfearn comprises buildings of varying ages - one steading is still in use. As well as farm buildings and houses, there are remains of a horsemill platform and a lime kiln built into a bank at a short distance from the main settlement. There is evidence that the mill had been water powered at some time as there was a lade. In 1985 walls stood higher than at the time of our survey with a complete gable end having since been demolished.
Cragganfearn was the birthplace and childhood home of the 19th century athlete, James Fleming. He was born here in 1840 and reached his peak in the UK around 1870. He then competed in the USA and Canada before emegrating to Australia
Cragganfern appears to be a settlement near Tulliemet or Tullymet in Perth, Kinross, and near the forks River Tay and River Tummel (closer to the Tummel River). Some have mentioned Dunkeld, which is further South East, while Atholl (Blair) is further to the North West.
There is also another list of Flemings and other families showing that a Laird of Cragganfearn was born in 1930, but not much else about them. It’s part of a time line, which can be found at the web link: http://members.shaw.ca/lyle.woods/genealogy/
I believe Lyle Woods is searching for family members though this area on the web.
As for myself, I am not sure that this particular FLEMING (be they a LAIRD or simply named LAIRD) is part of my family tree. However, it was interesting to investigate this particular individual.
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Part 2
There are several Flemings with dates and names similar to Flemings in my family tree. I am not sure what this compilation is focused on. Not all the Flemings are listed that I have in my tree, nor is there any mention of Agnew’s which one of the Flemings married into. From my side of the Fleming family they resided in Derby, Grey County, Ontario, Canada and at least set of parents came to Ontario – Alexander “Alex” Fleming born 1799 and died 16 Feb 1869 and is buried in Greenwood Cemetery G-BLC-19 Grave 1. His wife was Janet Stewart (or I have seen him liked to a Janet Ross in some family trees). Not sure when she was born or died. However they had he following children: Jessie Janet Fleming, Born 1828 Scotland Died 1918 Ontario (my link to the Fleming family she married James Agnew). Also she had a brother Charles Fleming Born 1841 Died 1910 a sister Margaret Jane Fleming Born 1843 Died 1886 and another sister Jeannie Fleming born 1846 and died 1942. The rest of my family are Agnew’s from Dundalk, Grey County, Ontario Canada with my Great Grandfather Herbert James Agnew born in 1867 in Romney, Derby, Grey County, Ontario Canada and his wife Nellie McGrath born in 1872 in the USA and died 18 May 1945 in Ontario Canada. They had children Jessie Louise Agnew born 1897 or 1898 Kent, Ontario Canada, Died 1982, James Roy Agnew born 1899 Kent, Ontario, Canada, Clarence Agnew born January 1911 in Ontario, Canada.
Also another son my Grandfather Hebert Milton Agnew born 1901 Debry, Grey County, Ontario Canada dies September 1978, Owen Sound. His wife was Ruby Irene Hilts born July 1903 in Debry, Grey County, Ontario died. They had 13 children Lois Isabel Agnew, Milton Douglas Agnew, Audrey Jolene Agnew, Lola Doreen Agnew, Betty Joan Agnew, Hebert Ross Agnew, Islay Marie Agnew, Shirley Ann Agnew, Donald Keith Agnew, Wallace Murray Agnew, Doris Faye Agnew and Clayton Agnew not sure of his birth, but he is living today in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada with his wife Florence and daughter Renee Agnew, who has a son Dime Agnew, also living in Alberta, Canada.
My story is a bit complicated, since I was born with the surname Agnew, in Markdale, Grey County, Ontario Canada in 1949. My family resided on a farm in Dundalk, Grey County Dundalk, Ontario Canada, on Herb and Ruby Agnew’s farm. I was adopted by a family in Mimico (West End Toronto) Ontario Canada and I have the adoption order changing my last name from Agnew to my adopted family name. I lost touch with my birth family as I was rasied by my adopted family from about 3 months old and they were my guardians. I do not know the name of my mother or my father. I was told by my adopted mother when I discovered I was adopted that it was true. I was also told by the source who told me I was adopted that I was related to the Agnew family of Dundalk and they asked me if I remembered going to the farm and playing with a young boy. He apparently was my brother. I will not relate his name here as he is still living and may or may not know the family history and that I am his brother. I was told by my adoptive mother who my mother was, but not who may father was. I was also told by a family friend of an aunts and uncles (they went to school with them in Dundalk) and it just happened that I found here through a fellow I went to school with, he is her son-in-law. When he found out that I was an Agnew from Dundalk, his mother indicated who my mother was (not the same person as I was told by my adoptive mother). She also indicated who may father was, who I will not name here as well as it has not been confirmed and since they did not marry my birth mother, it would be best to not disclose that families surname or his name at this time or possibly never disclose it, depending on the circumstances of their relationship and if his family knows the story or not. I have been told that my mother is dead (the one that was told to me by my adoptive mother). The other mother told to me by the family friend may still be living and married. I was also told by the family friend that my father is now dead. So, my search is to try to discover who my mother is and who my father is. I at least have the opportunity to know my family roots so I do have a beginning point. My next steps may be to contact my cousin in Edmonton and ask my uncle Clayton if he can confirm all of his brothers and sisters and to confirm the young fellow from that family I was told was my brother. That young fellow is not listed as a child or my grandparents or any of their children from my searches various family trees. My uncle may also know who my mother was (which of his sisters) and possibly even know the name of my father. I think part of the problem why people may not want to discuss my father is I was told by the family friend that he was already married to someone other than my birth mother. So I wish to respect the privacy of his family and living family members. Should I discover that the person who I was told by the family friend was actually my father, I am not sure that I would try to make contact with those family members.
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Part 3
So, another step is to do the DNA test to see if there are any relatives out there which might lead to some information as to who my father may be. This may also help lead me to who my mother is, since I have two names at this point. However, it may not lead anywhere. So my best hope at this point is my uncle Clayton in Edmonton. I was told his brother Donald Agnew still lives in Dundalk. I was told one of his sisters lives in Dundalk as well and I do have her married name. I was also told by a friend of mine that my brother now lives in Mount Forest, Ontario Canada. This came about when my friend of mine was with me at a meeting and one of the people at the meeting indicate that we likely didn’t know where he came from. He said he was from Markdale. I said, I know Markdale, I was born there and my family was the Agnew’s from Dundalk. My friend asked if I knew this particular fellow form the Agnew’s of Dundalk and I told him he was my brother but didn’t know it. From what I had been told, my brother thought the my grandparents Herb and Ruby Agnew were his parents, so not to mention it to him unless he knows the story.
So, mine is a bit of a mystery. Fortunately I have documents showing my name at birth, location of birth and date of birth on an Adoption order to change my surname form Agnew to my current family name.
Anyway, I thought maybe this RootsChat.com might be a place to look for more information. So, shortly I will start to search for more information about the Agnew’s and Fleming family on this site.
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Stumbled onto this post when I searched for Craggenfearne as well. New to roots myself so not sure if any of the other people that posted will see this.
My lineage goes back to Christopher Alexander Fleeming / Fleming (spelling is mostly Fleming on line but copy of Family Bible is Fleeming). Apparently he was born in 1743, Athole, Perthshire, Scotland (family bible states Athole had to look up to see Perthshire, which fits with other family records info.) He was married to a Margret Forbes Fleeming in Blair Athole, Perth, Scotland on March 9, 1769.Their son - John Fleming born June 20, 1770 in Blair Athole, Perth - was said to be the son of Laird of Cragganfearn. This is were I find it confusing as wouldn't that be Christopher Alexander Fleeming, the man listed as his father? Anyway this son - John Fleming had 4 - possibly 5 children with a Janet Ross (married in 1790 in Mains of Kilmorich, Dowally, Perth) 2 sons and 2 - possibly 3 daughters. It was said that Janet Ross used to walk over the hills to see her mother but still trying to find info on her.) 1 of the daughters - Isobel (my lineage) was married to a James Douglass the Elder (April 23, 1826 Logierait, Perth). Now the title 'the Elder' usually meant an Elder of the Church, similar to a Deacon) but I cannot confirm that James was an Elder but that is how his name is in the family records. They lived in Blairgowrie and had 4 sons, 1 of which drowned in the river Tay and James the Elder died a few months after. The mother Isabella/ Isobell and sons immigrated to Canada where there was already family living that had immigrated earlier. Anyway in letters received from an Aunt either James Douglass the Elder or one of his sons was a tailor in Scotland.
In doing research I found that an Alternative name to Cragganfearne is: TULLYMET BURN Canmore ID 73765 County: PERTHSHIRE Parish: LOGIERAIT Council: PERTH AND KINROSS. I do not know if this is still the same piece of land in which was in question as before or not but it could possibly be a different area of land and therefore an smaller holding, not part of a large estate? Is Blair Athole, Perth anywhere near this Cragganfearn place? Is Tullymet Burn (which does not show up on google maps still in existance? I have my family tree on wikitree.com if anyone is interested.
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Go here https://maps.nls.uk/view/74400314
Find Tulliemet
Zoom in, look under the "M"
Tulliemt Burn is still there. Simply speaking a burn is nothing more than a ditch with water running through it and yes its on Google Maps.
Don
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SAS1
Further to your post Blair Atholl is a parish in the county of Perth with the main town having the same name. Alexander Fleming and Margaret Forbes were declared married 09 Mar 1769 he resided at the Mains (left bottom of town) she was from Arilkincall (just above the "A" in Blair Atholl town). I don't see the birth of an Alexander having a father Christopher anywhere in Scotland https://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk nor a marriage of a Christopher so perhaps he went by Alexander.
Son John was born 20 JUN 1770 at Arilkincall baptised on the 24th, so they were still in Atholl at that time. Dowally is below Tulleymet; Kilmorrich is just above the map fold. I neglected to explain that the term "Haugh of" means level ground not a farm/dwelling name. Which is likely the confusion in your post. Many of these named arears consisted of common ground for grazing during this era.
That being said their children (Alexander, John, Isabel, Janet, Catherine) may have been born at the Mains (at least Janet was).
I see James Douglas (he was a mason)/Fleming were married in Ballacraggan which is under the Ph of Logierait no children registered so either they were not members of the Church of Scotland or the records were lost. There are only a few Ross families in this area so I wonder if tale of Janet running over the hills to visit mom might be a stretch.
To find out if your kin were Elders in the church you would need to go through the Kirk Session Minutes for each Parish they lived and you can not do that economically from across the pond without hiring a researcher. That being said, the NRS is planning to make these available beginning in 2018 but I am unsure if that includes internet access along the same lines as Scotland's People.
However, you should consult the OPR Records at Scotlands People where you can access the original documents to determine exactly where they were and in some cases what they did. Family Bibles are not necessarily accurate. Laird of Cragganfearn - the "Laird" of everyplace you mentioned except Ballacraggan was the Duke of Atholl. Ballacraggan was held by the Earl of Breadalbane. Very few places in this part of Perth were held (owned) by others it was very much a feudal society.
Don
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Cragganfearn location.
Malky
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Thank you Don! - for clearing up the information on the land area - when I googled Tullymet the only thing that came up was a street! Yes the spelling made a difference! I had no idea that there was a meaning to the words Burn or 'Haugh of' either. I am sure that will come in handy with further researching.
I did find the marriage of Alexander Fleming and Margaret Forbes as you stated. Isobell's birth was listed under Scotland Births and Baptisms. Showing a Christening Date 01 Oct 1797 Christening Place DOWALLY, PERTH, SCOTLAND Birth Date 20 Sep 1797 parents John Fleming and Janet Ross. Again - not being familiar with the area, I do not know how close / far everything is. We are planning a trip to the UK and Europe in the future - am hoping to stay a bit longer in the Perth area than I did previously - there about 10 yrs ago but only had a little information at that time and didn't realize that there was so much information. At the time we spent 2 days seeing the area of Perth and Blairgowrie/ Rattery area, river Tay etc. Loved to walks and found out that the family research society was there but they were closed. As we were there with my in laws, I also did not have the chance to actually spend time in research either.
I have not found the birth of Christopher Alexander Fleming yet either but still looking. Yes records are sometimes lost and family Bible records are not always accurate, however so far the copy I have of the Douglass Bible has been fairly accurate. The info of John Fleming being the supposed son of the Laird of Cragganfearne is NOT a part of the Bible, just was information in a letter to my Aunt from a distant cousin. As it was written in parenthesis by his name but his mothers husband was listed as Christopher Alexander Fleming - I wondered if that meant that possibly C A Fleming was the step father or that maybe he (John Fleming) was a son of the Laird and was 'born on the wrong side of the sheets' as they used to say. Either way, not a major deal to me, just following up on family information / stories.
Again and also - thank you for the information on further searching as well - very helpful to someone across the pond! Kind of kicking myself as had a subscription to UK census information awhile back but did not think to check Scotland at the time as was researching more of my husbands side of the family then - SAS
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Hi All
For Blair Atholl area see link below
www.brorenich.co.uk
Yours Aye
BruceL
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Concerning Alexander Fleeming / Fleming and Margaret Forbes
This may be of use, but then again ............
Fleming is a very uncommon name in Blair Atholl parish and the use of Christopher as a forename is totally unknown by the local inhabitants
Alexander Fleming in Mains of Blair and Margaret Forbes in Ardkincael, marriage banns 9th March 1769. The Session Minutes show that the marriage entries in the OPR give the date when the parties gave in their names (in order to marriage).
She would have been known as Margaret Forbes, even after marriage, as was the tradition in Scotland.
Their son John, was born at Ardkincael, but this does not mean that Alexander Fleming was living there. It was not unusual for the first child to be born in the house of the wife's parents where her mother could supervise the first delivery. It also suggests that Margaret Forbes was not just a servant girl working at Ardkincael when she married.
John was the only child and it is highly probable that Margaret Forbes died in childbirth or soon afterwards.
Alexander Fleming remarried seven years later.
Alexander Fleeming in Mains of Blair and Christian Stewart in Blair, married 23 Dec 1777
The baptism of Christian (30th October 1778) tells us that Alexander Fleming was cow-herd to His Grace the Duke of Atholl. An important position as it was a large herd with prize beasts, large enough to need full-time dairymaids.
Donald was born at Mains of Blair, 24th July 1780.
Katharine was born at Porter Lodge (of Blair), 12th July 1783
Margaret was born at the West Lodge of Blair (this may be the same place), 7th March 1786, and
Alexander was born at the West Lodge of Blair, 22nd March 1789.
There is no record of a Janet being baptised in Blair Atholl (Jessie would be the familiar or family name)
Throth (www.borenich.co.uk)