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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: Fresh Fields on Friday 30 March 12 21:08 BST (UK)
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Quote from: Janette on Yesterday at 05:30:15
Hi Julie,
They may have come from Paisley
Two groups of Scots came to Auckland in the early 1840s. In 1841 the Scottish Colonisation Company despatched three vessels from the River Clyde, bearing migrants who settled first at Cornwallis Point. A year later the Colonial Land and Emigration Commissioners sent out a party of more than 500 from Paisley (where the textile industry was in recession) on the Duchess of Argyll and the Jane Gifford.
Cheers Janette
« Reply #14 on: Yesterday at 23:07:37 »
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Sorry Alan
That was a quote from this website
http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/scots/2
Cheers Janette
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Hello there.
I’m interested in, and have done quite a bit of research into a number of the so called ‘Founding Families of Auckland’ so have read quite a bit over the years, including Janette’s “teara” link above, but it was her little quote above that made me sit up, as it was the first time I recall the mention that three ships, not two, were involved. Most Auckland history commentators, refer to the sailing of the TWO ships [Jane Gifford and the Duchess of Argyle] as the first planned founding of free emigrants for/of Auckland.
If any one can point me in the direction of the third ship, this may help with clues we need to tie up some loose ends, about associations between those Paisley emigrants. In those early days of Auckland, civil records were few and far between. If it did not make it to the newspapers, there is a good chance there is no surviving public record.
- Alan.
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Hi Alan,
You may have misread that quote,I see it this way
Two groups of Scots came to Auckland in the early 1840s. In 1841 the Scottish Colonisation Company despatched three vessels from the River Clyde, bearing migrants who settled first at Cornwallis Point. A year later the Colonial Land and Emigration Commissioners sent out a party of more than 500 from Paisley (where the textile industry was in recession) on the Duchess of Argyll and the Jane Gifford.
Meaning the were 2 groups,the first group had 3 ships,the second group a year later had 2 ships the Duchess of Argyll and the Jane Gifford.
cheers Janette
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thought it was a good time to mention the old colonists register that cna be downloaded from Auckland Library
It has the names of 13 ships to Auckland
Bye
Althea
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Oh the joys of getting old.
First, some how, I'm managing to lock my posts, then bumbling my efforts to unlock them. Forcing the regulars to PM me to wake me up, and pointing out how I might have miss read the quote.
As well as the ones above, Beg has some good additional points to make, which I hope he will bring forward from his PM, to me, box.
One more ship, that had escaped my many years of reading, could have helped with how some of the Paisley connections evolved, in the early days at Auckland, and the coast services from Auckland.
Just a minute boy, it's not going to be as easy as that. Oh how I wish that I had asked my Grand Father, more about how some of his relatives, got here. Especially those women and their children, who just appeared unaccompanied. Who paid for the voyage to the otherside of the world? I can not find them on any assisted list.
- Alan.
P.S. In my mind I was confusing this 1842 sailing with another 1858 /1859 one, where they arrived from Scotland, in the new year.
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Beg has some additional points to make, which I hope he will bring forward from his PM, to me, box.
Hello Alan...
I hope you didn't mind my PM'ing you. I just assumed you had accidentally locked the thread.
Just repeating what I said in my PM (and what Janette alluded to and Althea seems to have already disproved but I'll post it anyway :-)
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How I read the snippet, which may be entirely wrong, is that there were two voyages. The first voyage of three ships in 1841 to Cornwallis Point (Manakau) and the second voyage consisting of two ships in 1842, the Duchess of Argyll and the Jane Gifford. EDIT: The same as Janette says
If that's the case the three ships referred to in the first voyage are most likely the Brilliant, the Osprey and the Louisa Campbell.
EDIT: But the last two sailed in 1842 according to the dates Althea posted
EDIT 2: Maybe not...
Entered Outwards:
The Osprey (Sedgwick) for New Zealand
The Morning Post (London)
September 08 1841
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Cleared Outwards with cargo:
The Louisa Campbell (Derby) for New Zealand
The Morning Post (London)
January 6 1842
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The Dream That Was Cornwallis
The Manukau Settlement and the Voyage of the barque Brilliant
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ourstuff/SettlementofCornwallis.htm
This monument ...commemorates the attempt to found the settlement of Cornwallis, the arrival of the ships Brilliant, Osprey and Louisa Campbell in the Manukau Harbour, and the settlers who, after many setbacks were forced through no fault of their own, to abandon the township of Cornwallis.
I'm just working from google. I have zero knowledge of Auckland history so I may be well off the mark.
For what it's worth, in 1842 a third NZ-bound ship left the Clyde a fortnight after the Duchess of Argyll and the Jane Gifford. It was the "New Zealand" bound for Port Nicholson.
Source:
The Scotsman
Page 3
June 11 1842
Regards
Beg
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Hello and thanks Beg.
My Paisley roots are at Auckland, and over 50 years I've read a lot about those early settlers, and it seems I’ve forgotten more than I've remembered. Also the quotable facts that I have remembered, and often tell in my stories, are not as factual as I think.
A point of interest for me, has always been that the Jane Gifford [558 tonnes], the smaller sailing ship of the two, left port after the Duchess of Argyle [667 tonnes] but arrived on the same tide at Auckland. While both were piloted up the harbour on the evening tide, the Duchess did not remain clear of a sand bar, so the Jane Gifford was able to sail by, and drop anchor first. But just now going to my reference books I see that she left on June 18 only 9 days later [June 9th] NOT the three weeks I have in my mind.
Darry McCarthy in THE FIRST FLEETS OF AUCKLAND notes that on that journey from Glasgow [June 9 & 18 to October 9 1842] there were 34 deaths and 16 births, which again gives interest to this oral history.
Our families first recorded NZ [Auckland] baptism was in the Free Presbyterian Church at the end of 1843, however oral history would suggest that the newly married man was very keen that his wife should be off loaded as quickly as possible, so as to give birth in a cleaner and fresher place, than the overcrowded ship. As the family had practised patronymic naming in Scotland, it is a good possibility, but no records survive to prove, or disprove the oral history.
We may groan today about conditions, but don’t really know how lucky we are.
- Alan.
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My ancestors came out on the Duchess of Argyle in 1842. I am unable to find anything about their life back in Scotland. What were the conditions like - were all the passengers on the Duchess of Argyle part of the Paisley Emigration Society? If so are there records of their names? I found the passenger list and found their names there - spelt wrong but they are there!
I look forward to any assistance.
Thank you
Angela
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Hi Angela and welcome
What were their names please
Cheers Janette
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Good Morning Jeanette, their names were Isaac and Janet McEwan and their daughter Margaret who was only about 4 months old when they left. The passenger list transcription of the Duchess of Argyle shows their names as "McEwing" for their arrival in New Zealand.
I am also trying to find the marriage details for Isaac and Janet - her maiden name was Janet Margaret Bowman.
Thank you.
Angela
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There is an article here that includes the D of A
https://suite101.com/a/from-scotland-to-new-zealand-the-early-auckland-settlers-a395638
Cheers Janette
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Good morning Angela.
RE my PM and your above post. If that is all the info you have, GREAT and we will go from there, however all the little bits of info you have, or even assumptions you have, could be clues to help the direction that others offering help can go to looking for supporting info from their archive sources.
In my PM to you I assumed that your family roots were either locally [greater environs of Glasgow] raised, or recently moved to the industrialization of greater Glasgow looking for work.
If locally raised the STATISTICAL ACCOUNTS OF SCOTLAND 1790's and again 1830's record the life and times of each parish through the eyes of it's ministry, and can be very informative and at times quite funny in today's context. Covering a slightly later period is the RAMBLES OF GLASGOW by Hugh MacDONALD 1854, and there are others on other localities.
Where you experience difficulty finding family in the OPR [pre civil 1855 records] it is possible that they were one of the many families or individuals who frequently moved between Ireland and Scotland seeking work; or they were members of some of the smaller faiths / churches, who's records have not survived as well. That was the generation of the breakaway and FREE CHURCH formations.
There are very active Family History / Genealogy groups based in Glasgow, Lanarkshire [Hamilton] and Renfrewshire [Paisley] all who may hold info. I also note the mention of the Isle of Sky in your PM. If you feel that the family had connections there before moving Clydeside and emigrating, there is another avenue for your research.
Ewing is a name of substance in the greater Glasgow area and appears in quite a few family lines as a second given name, even when not directly related.
- Alan.
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Hi,
I've been reading this thread with great interest and my interest was piqued even more by the name Isaac McEwan as I have an Isaac McEwan in my family tree, although mine was Irish and came to Scotland in 1860s and never left .
But I had a quick look on Freecen at the Scottish 1841 Census and found this entry-
Factory Court, Bridgeton, Glasgow.
THOMSON Andw M 40 Baker Lanarkshire
THOMSON Margt (Mrs) F 40 Outside Census County
THOMSON Agnes F 13 Lanarkshire
THOMSON Andw M 9 Lanarkshire
THOMSON Angus M 6 Lanarkshire
THOMSON Wm M 3 Lanarkshire
BOWMAN Janet F 20 Female Servant Outside Census County
MCEWAN Isacc M 15 Apprentice Lanarkshire
RANKINE Joseph M 14 Apprentice Lanarkshire
MCMILLAN Jane F 30 Outside Census County
All spellings are as transcribed on www.freecen.org.uk
This looks good for the young couple on The Duchess of Argyle. I know that Isaac's age is a bit out but that was common to be a bit economical with the truth (and in many cases people had actually no idea what their true age was :-\)
Looby :)
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Thank you Looby that is great. Yes I know ages can be "strange" shall we say.
Thank you for your help.
Angela
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No problem Angela. ;D
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I have been reading about the voyages of people from Scotland and England to New Zealand in the 1840's -1880's and some of the accounts are quite scary. I wonder how big was the barque The Duchess of Argyle and The Jane Gifford?
Angela
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Hello.
The reported tonages of the two sailing ships was:-
Duchess of Argyle 667 tons [172 men 171 women & 192 children.]
Jane Gifford 558 tons.
On the long journey out there were 34 deaths & 16 births.
[THE FIRST FLEET OF AUCKLAND by Darry McCARTHY.]
There are some well circulated / reproduced drawings of the two vessels. Copies of which I expect you will be able to find on either the Auckland Library or the Auckland Museum sites. They have been used many times in publications about early Auckland.
- Alan.
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Thanks Alan, but I wonder how long were they - how wide? I'm trying to imagine their size - how big are they compared to....
Angela
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There is a painting here that gives you some idea as to how small it was
http://www.seapainter.com/Duchess_of_Argyle.Auckland.html
Cheers Janette
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Thank you Jeanette - yes when you look at the size of the life boat and the ship, the ship does look small. I don't know that I would have wanted to cross the oceans to the other side of the world in a small ship like that. Do you think it went to NZ via Cape Horn or around South Africa via Australia. From some of the exerts I have read lately from ships sailing to NZ from England they seem to have gone via the Cape Horn, South America?
Angela
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Hello again.
The book which I have photocopied and laminated extracts out of for display at reunions etc is THE STORY OF NEW ZEALAND by Bassett, Sinclair and Stenson pages 58 to 61. Most came out as assisted "steerage class" passengers. There is an illustration of how crowded the sleeping quarters were, how they were arranged on the "SS BOLTON of 540 tons 1841" separating the single M & F passangers, sick bay, couples, families etc. A family of parents and four children would all have to fit in an allocated 1.8 x 2.4 metres sleeping enclosure. On a voyage of the "LLOYDS" to Nelson in 1842, 65 children died on the way out. This was possibly one of the worst cases, not helped by whooping cough spreading through the ship.
There is a big list plus cost of the Emigrants' outfit required. [Clothing, bedding, utensils etc per person] Also the daily food ration allocated for one adult, not something you would choose to live on today, but fascinating reading.
No time to look it up now, but the Lloyd's Shipping Register I assume, would give a description of the vessels registered and insured therein.
- Alan.
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Went looking for more stats on the Duchess, and came up with these, that I apparently have never gone to the trouble to record in my saved notes before.
Duchess of Argyle 123' 8" long, 24' 5" wide and 19' 9" deep. This reference quoting 523 tons old measure 667 tons new measure.
Duchess of Argyle hits :-
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/MARINERS/2002-05/1021710854
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ourstuff/DuchessofArgyle.htm
http://www.otago.ac.nz/library/pdf/hoc_fr_bulletins/14_bulletin.pdf
The passenger list one you have possibly seen before. The Otago University one gives a great list of titles that can be researched in support of info about the early shipping.
- Alan.
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Thanks Alan
Hello.
The reported tonages of the two sailing ships was:-
Duchess of Argyle 667 tons [172 men 171 women & 192 children.]
Jane Gifford 558 tons.
On the long journey out there were 34 deaths & 16 births.
[THE FIRST FLEET OF AUCKLAND by Darry McCARTHY.]
There are some well circulated / reproduced drawings of the two vessels. Copies of which I expect you will be able to find on either the Auckland Library or the Auckland Museum sites. They have been used many times in publications about early Auckland.
- Alan.
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Alan, I am amazed at it being such a little ship - the frontage of our property where our home is in Frankfort, Illinois is bigger than that! I have more and more admiration for my ancestors as I learn more about them and the living conditions they left behind in Scotland and the living conditions which they went to - They were truly very brave and courageous people. And to think that they took their 4 month old daughter with them on the Duchess of Argyle and that she was 8 months old when she arrived in New Zealand!
Alan I am truly indebted to you. Thank you.
Angela :)
Went looking for more stats on the Duchess, and came up with these, that I apparently have never gone to the trouble to record in my saved notes before.
Duchess of Argyle 123' 8" long, 24' 5" wide and 19' 9" deep. This reference quoting 523 tons old measure 667 tons new measure.
Duchess of Argyle hits :-
http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/MARINERS/2002-05/1021710854
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ourstuff/DuchessofArgyle.htm
http://www.otago.ac.nz/library/pdf/hoc_fr_bulletins/14_bulletin.pdf
The passenger list one you have possibly seen before. The Otago University one gives a great list of titles that can be researched in support of info about the early shipping.
- Alan.
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Hello again.
The book which I have photocopied and laminated extracts out of for display at reunions etc is THE STORY OF NEW ZEALAND by Bassett, Sinclair and Stenson pages 58 to 61. Most came out as assisted "steerage class" passengers. There is an illustration of how crowded the sleeping quarters were, how they were arranged on the "SS BOLTON of 540 tons 1841" separating the single M & F passangers, sick bay, couples, families etc. A family of parents and four children would all have to fit in an allocated 1.8 x 2.4 metres sleeping enclosure. On a voyage of the "LLOYDS" to Nelson in 1842, 65 children died on the way out. This was possibly one of the worst cases, not helped by whooping cough spreading through the ship.
There is a big list plus cost of the Emigrants' outfit required. [Clothing, bedding, utensils etc per person] Also the daily food ration allocated for one adult, not something you would choose to live on today, but fascinating reading.
No time to look it up now, but the Lloyd's Shipping Register I assume, would give a description of the vessels registered and insured therein.
- Alan.
PS As Angela has now advised that she does not live in NZ I have scan ed the pages referred to, and forwarded by PM. I won't share them here because of issues re copyright.
For those living in NZ the books should be obtainable, upon request, at City Libraries.
- Alan.
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Thank you Alan.
Angela
Hello again.
The book which I have photocopied and laminated extracts out of for display at reunions etc is THE STORY OF NEW ZEALAND by Bassett, Sinclair and Stenson pages 58 to 61. Most came out as assisted "steerage class" passengers. There is an illustration of how crowded the sleeping quarters were, how they were arranged on the "SS BOLTON of 540 tons 1841" separating the single M & F passangers, sick bay, couples, families etc. A family of parents and four children would all have to fit in an allocated 1.8 x 2.4 metres sleeping enclosure. On a voyage of the "LLOYDS" to Nelson in 1842, 65 children died on the way out. This was possibly one of the worst cases, not helped by whooping cough spreading through the ship.
There is a big list plus cost of the Emigrants' outfit required. [Clothing, bedding, utensils etc per person] Also the daily food ration allocated for one adult, not something you would choose to live on today, but fascinating reading.
No time to look it up now, but the Lloyd's Shipping Register I assume, would give a description of the vessels registered and insured therein.
- Alan.
PS As Angela has now advised that she does not live in NZ I have scan ed the pages referred to, and forwarded by PM. I won't share them here because of issues re copyright.
For those living in NZ the books should be obtainable, upon request, at City Libraries.
- Alan.
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I have come across the attached newspaper obituary (NZ Herald, 22 September 1931). It says that my great grandfather, Archibald MacVicar, arrived in NZ on the Duchess of Argyle. I cannot find him on the passenger list. I have, however found a Arch. McVicor who arrived on the Drover in April 1855. The obituary correctly states that Archibald's wife Christina and daughter Margaret arrived on the Euphemus in 1856 (http://rter.co.nz/macvicar.html). Did the Duchess of Argyle sail many times to New Zealand? Any help with this family's roots to Scotland would be appreciated.
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Hi,
I was thrilled to find this group and hope you may be able to help me track down my great,great,great grandmother, Margaret Byron. I'm having trouble finding information as she was illiterate and her name appears incorrectly on many documents (perhaps it's not even Byron, as has been passed down). Family information is her father was a Dyer from Paisley called George Byron who emigrated to Wellington, NZ. I suspect it was on The Slain's Castle, however the name appears there as Baron, and I thought her mother was Marion, or Margaret, not Helen, as listed on the passenger list. I suspect George settled at Kiawharawhara, Wanganui as I found a George Byron, Dyer on a residential list of some kind. Any help as to their life in Paisley would be greatly appreciated.
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Hi Lynda, and welcome to RootsChat :)
A George BYRON is listed in the book Early History of New Zealand, From Earliest Times to 1840: from 1840 to 1845 which includes an alphabetical list. A transcription of the list can be found at
https://shadowsoftime.co.nz/settlersb.html
It supports your belief that he was living at Wellington (and probably arrived there between 1840-45).
Regards,
Spades.
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George was in Kai wara warra in August 1841 (earliest record I could find on Papers Past, search term 'byron' in Wellington newspaper titles 1839-1842)
New Zealand Gazette and Wellington Spectator, 7 August 1841, Page 1
Page 1 Advertisements Column 4
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tqh/
There were three more identical advertisements placed that month with one more in September 1841. No others appeared later, I searched for him up to 1847.
then in January 1842 a G. BYRON is listed as a passenger sailing alone from Wellington to Auckland on 14 January. I suspect very likely to be same man as he completely disappears from the newspaper records after this (I searched up to 1860, search term 'dyer and scourer'.
New Zealand Gazette and Wellington Spectator, 15 January 1842, Page 2
SHIPPING INTELLIGENCE.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tqi/
I found one mention in 1857 of a Mrs BYRON in a list of unclaimed letters.
Wellington Independent, 18 July 1857, Page 2
Page 2 Advertisements Column 3
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tqj/
I hope this helps,
Spades
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Hi Lynda,
To help us help you, can you please tell us what you already know about George BYRON and his wife Margaret. Places and year of birth, date and place of marriage and their deaths if known.
Do you know if they lived anywhere other than Wellington?
Regards,
Spades
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Hello Linda.
When I started this post I used extensively the Hugh WALLIS IGI way of researching the LDS held photos, taken from the original parish church registers, and their IGI transcriptions used for indexing etc.
I was able to search each christening, plus marriage banns and marrage records, of churches in the environs of Glasgow, where NZ records and newspapers suggested the emigrants had come from. In my case I had already paid at the Mormon Temple in Templeview Hamilton, to import rolls of film not already held there, that held records about my Gt Grand Parents, and their siblings etc. Today these images are also available from Scotlands People. The official site for historic records.
The Hugh WALLIS way made it relatively easy, to broaden my search to nearby churches and parishes, to further my research into the extended families that the NZ emigrants, of interest, left behind. [Transcribing leaves a lot to be desired, being able to view the ORIGINAL record is priceless, as it can hold a key.]
I am not sure that the Wallis option is now available, or if registration and frees are applicable before access can be gained to the records.
TALKINGSCOT a genealogical forum specializing in research and the historic Records of Scotland, has some very experienced helpers, just like RootsChat.
Happy hunting.
Alan.
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Thank you for all the wonderful information/links etc. Wonderful.
George is a bit of an anomaly, however, it's actually his daughter (my great-great-great grandmother) Margaret Byron that I am searching for. All our family information has been passed down through her, but because she was illiterate there appears to be a lack of documentation to support our understanding of our past. The family bible indicates she was born 1828 and we do know she died 2/6/1919 in Hamilton Australia with George Byron listed as her father and mother unknown. The following is the family story:
-Supposedly a direct descendant of Lord Byron (I'm positive this isn't true from a quick search). Born Glasgow but reared in Paisley.
-Parents owned a Dye Works and she had a younger son William or George William, who later migrated to San Francisco.
-Gave birth to first son, Kenneth Alexander Mathieson, baptised 21 September 1849 according to Baptismal Register with no mother listed just Kenneth Mathieson as father. The date contradicts known birthday in family bible as 15/10/1849) to my great-great-great grandfather Kenneth Mathieson (1811-1861) Shipbuilder and early settler who arrived 1841 onboard his ship the Clydeside (further information gathered through the Onslow Historian - Early Kiawarra Again and other searches).
-Daughter Isabella Mathieson b.29/10/1851 (no documentation)
-Left NZ for Aust around 1852 (surmised) with the children (Cpt Kenneth Mathieson was possibly already in Aust) family legend was he died at sea, but we have since found he died in a gold mine accident in 1861 at Ovens Diggings, VIC.
-Margaret married Captain Richard William Green, to whom she had another 3 boys, at Raymond Terrace, NSW, and after his death (1862) moved to Hamilton, NSW to care for Kenneth Alexander's four boys after their mother died, the 2nd eldest being my great grandfather Kenneth Alexander Mathieson Jnr.
Any help would be gratefully received,
Kind regards,
Lynda