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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Essex => England => Essex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Ann12 on Tuesday 17 May 05 11:12 BST (UK)
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Hi,
Would anyone be able to look up a parish marriage entry please.
St Mary, Birchanger
John Josolyne (could be spelt different)
Mary Mumford
20 February 1787.
Any info would be much appreciated.
Thanks :)
Ann
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Essex Record Office ref: Birchanger D/P 25/1/3 fiche 1 of 1 page 19 entry 73:
John JOSOLYNE of Manuden in Essex married Mary MUMFORD OTP by banns 20 Feb 1787. Both signed register. Witnesses were: Elizabeth LUCKIN, Jane Edith LUCKEN, Sarah MUMFORD, Joseph LUCKIN and Eunice MARKWELL who all signed the register. Spelling variations were as I have typed.
When I looked at the banns page 10 entry 49 for confirmation of spelling of husband's name that looked more like JOSELYNE and both were said to be OTP and single. Banns called 4/2, 11/2 and 18/2 in 1787
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Hi Clincher,
Many thanks for that, now I understand where the info came from on the IGI. It said that John Josolyne was born in Manuden (but I could never find any reference to that) probably someone looked up the same info and just presumed he was born in Manuden.
Again thanks alot, it's much appreciated.
Ann :)
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Hi Clincher,
What does OTP mean? I thought I could figure it out but the old brain cells arent co-operating tonight!
Thanks
Ann
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I know the feeling very well :'( ...of this parish.... in this case Birchanger
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Hi Clincher,
Oh dear now I'm really confused and feeling rather stupid. So if he was living in Birchanger then where did the Manuden come from? (I thought the entry in the IGI was made by an American who just wanted to save as many souls as possible - I don't blame him/her if I could save the souls of my ancestors I would HAVE to do it!!) When (in the old days) they put 'from' did it actually mean where they were born, or could they have just lived there??
Ann ;D
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In the entry in the marriage register it was stated that Josolyne was from Manuden. Josolyne would probably not have written that himself - it would most likely have been written by the priest or parish clerk as a result of asking the 'question what parish do you live in?'.
But this is contradicted by the banns entry which stated that Josolyne and Mumford were of Birchanger.
I suspect that J and M -to save church fees- told a fib as to where they lived and J let the cat out of the bag at the wedding...but hopefully they all lived happily ever after :D
Whoever made the entry in IGI was just copying what he/she saw in marriage register -just like I did except that you got the full monty with witnesses etc
Is that Ok now?
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Hi Clincher,
Yes, now I understand the plot!!
thanks again
Ann
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Hi all, I can't believe I'm re-visiting this post after 14 years!! I'm still stuck with the Josolyne's - I still can't find the births of the siblings, I know they were born between 1750 and 1763 because of other records I have found - I'm starting to think that the parish the siblings were born in doesn't have surviving parish records anymore ....
Recently a record appeared on Ancestry - it was the marriage record for John Josolyne and Mary Mumford but it had Great Waltham, Essex as the place of marriage:
Marriage Date: 14 Jan 1787
Marriage Place: Great Waltham, Essex, England
So now it really is confusing .... Where did they come from? and where did they actually marry?
Any pointers would be welcome !!
Thanks
Anna
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There are 2 records for the couple
one 14 Jan 1787 Great Waltham and
one 20 Feb 1787 Birchanger
so assume the later date would be the marriage and the earlier date the banns?
Only transcriptions though it looks like the originals were looked up earlier by Clincher.
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What's strange is they read banns three times before the marriage, which means the Great Waltham one would come to four!! ???
Anna
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The marriage at Birchanger in 1787 is also transcribed on FreeReg
https://www.freereg.org.uk/
Banns were called at Great Waltham, 31 Dec 1786, 7 Jan, 14 Jan
Says John was of Manuden, Mary of this parish
You can see that on FamilySearch if you are logged in
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-67F3-G54?i=34&cat=60997
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Re the marriage witnesses
Marriage at Birchanger, 14 Feb 1786
Joseph Luckin (of Great Waltham) + Jane Edith Mumford
Info from FreeReg
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There are 2 records for the couple
one 14 Jan 1787 Great Waltham and
one 20 Feb 1787 Birchanger
so assume the later date would be the marriage and the earlier date the banns?
Only transcriptions though it looks like the originals were looked up earlier by Clincher.
On the Birchanger marriage record, John is from manuden. There are five witnesses to the marriage!
Elizabeth lucken, Jane Edith lucken, Joseph lucken, Sarah Mumford, Eunice markwell. Unusual. Not seen that many on records before.
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But banns for a marriage that didn't take place in either Great Waltham or Manuden.
When I looked at the banns page 10 entry 49 for confirmation of spelling of husband's name that looked more like JOSELYNE and both were said to be OTP and single. Banns called 4/2, 11/2 and 18/2 in 1787
Different dates to the Great Waltham banns! Pity there doesn't seem to be a surviving banns register for the period for Manuden.
And John apparently OTP on the later Birchanger banns, but of Manuden on the marriage.
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Sorry. Only just read earlier posts that said he was of manuden. He would only have had to be living in manuden at the time of th banns to say he was of manuden though, I suppose?
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Yes, nannyj, but I was wondering if there was a change of plan here? But I guess they wouldn't call banns twice over in Manuden, and if it says John was of Birchanger on the banns in Birchanger it would make sense. But then you have confirmed that it says John was of Manuden on the marriage record.
I may be losing the plot...
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Just been checking the manuden Parish registers.
There’s a pollard and Alice Joycelyn having children there for 1752 to 1763.
Thomas, James, William, Sarah, Daniel, Richard ... but no John!
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Bingo!
Stansted mountfichet ... near manuden.
John of pollard and Alice 15/7/1750
Pollard and Alice Giffen married in stansted mountfichet 7/5/1747
First son Joseph baptised 2/10/1748 stansted mountfichet.
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Well done!
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Feeling pleased with myself 😉
Alice giffen baptised to Joseph and Deborah in 1723 (3 Nov).
Deborah May have been a second wife, as Joseph had a son Joseph with her in 1721 but there’s a Joseph and Alice having children in 1714. Maybe the 1714 one is Alice 1723’s grandfather. Will see if there’s a death for the older Alice and a marriage for Deborah.
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Hi all, I can't believe I'm re-visiting this post after 14 years!! I'm still stuck with the Josolyne's - I still can't find the births of the siblings, I know they were born between 1750 and 1763 because of other records I have found - I'm starting to think that the parish the siblings were born in doesn't have surviving parish records anymore ....
Recently a record appeared on Ancestry - it was the marriage record for John Josolyne and Mary Mumford but it had Great Waltham, Essex as the place of marriage:
Marriage Date: 14 Jan 1787
Marriage Place: Great Waltham, Essex, England
So now it really is confusing .... Where did they come from? and where did they actually marry?
Any pointers would be welcome !!
Thanks
Anna
Hi Anna
Johns siblings, as far as I found, are:
Manuden:
Thomas 16/8/1752
James 30/3/1755
William 13/2/1757
Sarah 11/3/1759
Daniel 8/3/1761
Richard 6/11/1763
Stansted Mountfichet:
Joseph 2/10/1748
John 15/7/1750
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John giffen and Deborah Hawkins married in Farnham 18/2/1718 by certificate. Banns published in stansted and birchanger according to the entry. (Unless the banns bit refers to another marriage on the page?)
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Feeling pleased with myself 😉
Alice giffen baptised to Joseph and Deborah in 1723 (3 Nov).
Deborah May have been a second wife, as Joseph had a son Joseph with her in 1721 but there’s a Joseph and Alice having children in 1714. Maybe the 1714 one is Alice 1723’s grandfather. Will see if there’s a death for the older Alice and a marriage for Deborah.
Now I’m confused. There’s a Joseph giffen and Alice having children in 1721 and a Joseph giffen and Deborah also. I’m wondering if Joseph and Alice are Joseph, who’s married to Deborah, parents?
Also found a Joseph born to Joseph and Alice 1696. Answered my own question?