RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: Croquetplayer on Thursday 29 March 12 04:06 BST (UK)
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Hi All,
Researching my family in Australia only to find that they made landfall at Auckland on the Duchess of Argyle in 1842.
They are John and Jean Barr with children John 19, Arabella16, Elizabeth 14, Janet 11, Jean 7, Mary infant.
A brother William Barr and family, accompanied them.
There are many trees on Ancestry with this family recorded.
To a tree, they have strange records which do not match the known birth dates and differing places of origin.
I am trying to locate a record that will tell me where they originated from in Scotland.
Then I can have a look in the 1841 Scottish census for them.
The father, John Barr, apparently died in 1846 in NZ, but so far no one has found a record of that death.
I found a post from 2010 on Rootsweb, from someone saying that the mother and some children came to Australia in 1848/9.
I have not been able to locate this either.
Jean Barr, the 7 yr old, went on to marry John Armstrong Dodgson in South Australia in 1851.
I have their family all recorded.
I do not need help with the Dodgson side of the family.
I need some help finding some type of record like a ships manifest giving their home town or an application to come to New Zealand giving their address.
Or even births for these children in Scotland. or parents marriage.
I haven't searched Scotland or New Zealand before this and have no idea where to start.
Last night I had a go at searching from the resources listed on this board and did find some land taxes type of records. They didn't yield me any info.
I did learn that John Barr born 1823, married Isabella Barr born 1820. Presumably the young woman travelling on the Duchess of Argyle with the families but not part of either.
Any feedback would be much appreciated.
The key piece of information that I want, is where in Scotland they came from.
regards
Julie
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Hi Julie,
This gives the names and ages of all the Barr's who arrived on the Duchess of Argyle
http://www.aucklandcity.govt.nz/dbtw-wpd/passengers/passenger.html
Cheers Janette
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This article xplains the certificate with where family head from
http://www.reocities.com/wlorac/duchoa42.txt
Bye
althea
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EDIT:
Seems to be the wrong family so just ignore. But will leave info up for future reference
They are John and Jean Barr with children John 19, Arabella16, Elizabeth 14, Janet 11,
The key piece of information that I want, is where in Scotland they came from.
Hello...
FamilySearch has a Janet BARR, daughter of John BARR and Jean CARR born and christened in 1832 in Barony, Lanark, Scotland.
Scotlands People has the same record.
May be the Janet aged 11. Maybe not :-)
EDIT:
Plus FamilySearch has a John BARR b.10 Nov 1824 in Barony, Lanark, Scotland
Son of John BARR and Jean KERR
EDIT:
Plus FamilySearch has an Elisabeth BARR b.10 Nov 1829 in Barony, Lanark, Scotland
Daughter of John BARR and Jean KERR
Family Search
https://www.familysearch.org/
Scotland's People
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
Regards
Beg
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Thanks rootschatters,
I will look at all you have found.
Just noticed on the Duchess of Argyle that she sailed 9th June 1841.
No wonder no one has been able to find them in Scotland. The census night was 6th June.
Oops! one year apart! Sorreee
They probably didn't count them.
Oh just to miss out on them by a few days hurts!!
Julie
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Hi Julie,
They may have come from Paisley
Two groups of Scots came to Auckland in the early 1840s. In 1841 the Scottish Colonisation Company despatched three vessels from the River Clyde, bearing migrants who settled first at Cornwallis Point. A year later the Colonial Land and Emigration Commissioners sent out a party of more than 500 from Paisley (where the textile industry was in recession) on the Duchess of Argyll and the Jane Gifford.
Cheers Janette
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They are John and Jean Barr with children John 19, Arabella16, Elizabeth 14, Janet 11,
The key piece of information that I want, is where in Scotland they came from.
Hello...
FamilySearch has a Janet BARR, daughter of John BARR and Jean CARR born and christened in 1832 in Barony, Lanark, Scotland.
Scotlands People has the same record.
May be the Janet aged 11. Maybe not :-)
EDIT:
Plus FamilySearch has a John BARR b.10 Nov 1824 in Barony, Lanark, Scotland
Son of John BARR and Jean KERR
EDIT:
Plus FamilySearch has an Elisabeth BARR b.10 Nov 1829 in Barony, Lanark, Scotland
Daughter of John BARR and Jean KERR
Family Search
https://www.familysearch.org/
Scotland's People
http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/
Regards
Beg
I checked the Batch number which is probably what you did too Beg.
I feel good about this because William Barr and Jean Cowan appear there as parents as well.
A child called Eizabeth Macbrayne Barr should be easier to track as well!!
Feel like its on the move now!!
Julie
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Hi Julie,
They may have come from Paisley
Two groups of Scots came to Auckland in the early 1840s. In 1841 the Scottish Colonisation Company despatched three vessels from the River Clyde, bearing migrants who settled first at Cornwallis Point. A year later the Colonial Land and Emigration Commissioners sent out a party of more than 500 from Paisley (where the textile industry was in recession) on the Duchess of Argyll and the Jane Gifford.
Cheers Janette
So would this mean that everyone on the boat would have come from Paisley?
If that is the case then can I safely assume that they were textile workers who came out from a depressed situation to improve their lives?
Julie
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Hi Julie,
It may be worth contacting the Auckland City Library as they may have more info
http://www.aucklandlibraries.govt.nz/EN/Forms/Pages/AskaQuestion.aspx
Cheers Janette
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Thanks Janette,
I will certainly contact them.
In the mean time I have just located a pedigree resource file for this whole big family on Family search, by a woman named (*) in America.
There is a lot of info to sort through as she names parents and spouse family names.
I would never accept it with out checking it against something proven, but it gives a lot of places to start looking.
BTW it gives Renfrew as home place so its probably all Paisley, as you said.
It even gives my gggreat grandparents in South Australia.
You folks have really helped me today.
Thank you very much.
Julie ;D ;D ;D
(*) Edit by Moderator: Details of living person removed.
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John BARR Married Jean CALDER, 03 July 1825, Abbey, (Paisley), Renfrew, Scotland
(Source IGI Extracted)
Trish :)
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Thanks Trish,
It has been a happy day for me. The person who has provided the pedigree file to FamilySearch was found posting on Rootsweb in 2008, with a contact email address
I emailed and within the hour had a response from this lady.
Her gggrandpa was the brother of Jean Calder and she has a lot of information including a letter written between the two siblings in 1847.
I found the pedigree file by putting in the name of Elizabeth Lindsay Barr born 1829 in FamilySearch, then opening up the pedigree file that appeared.
I am adding these details here so that anyone searching in the future can follow my trail and end up finding the same person.
Even the marriage name is wrong as she is called Jane Barr when marrying James Armstrong Dodgson in 1851, when her actual name was Jean Barr.
If you ever wind up here searching for this family PM me for details.
I wouldn't have found this family with out your help Rootschatters so a big
THANK YOU
to all who participated.
Cheers
Julie
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A great outcome. All the best Julie :)
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Hi Julie,
They may have come from Paisley
Two groups of Scots came to Auckland in the early 1840s. In 1841 the Scottish Colonisation Company despatched three vessels from the River Clyde, bearing migrants who settled first at Cornwallis Point. A year later the Colonial Land and Emigration Commissioners sent out a party of more than 500 from Paisley (where the textile industry was in recession) on the Duchess of Argyll and the Jane Gifford.
Cheers Janette
Well done RC's you have done what I would have done, by going back to the Paisley Emigration and Renfrew. Just two points Janette. You only named the two vessels that left the Clyde three weeks apart and arrived at the Auckland pilotage on the same tide. Re settlement at Cornwallis, not all who sailed on the Jane Gifford and the Duchess of Argyll settled there. I have no record of either Wm SHARP [DofA] nor Archibald SHARP [JG] having spent any time at Cornwallis, though because of their kinship, through the following generations, there were links developed with the families who settled there.
- Alan.
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Sorry Alan
That was a quote from this website
http://www.teara.govt.nz/en/scots/2
Cheers Janette
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Hello again. No apology called for. Just sharing, and clarifying, from what research I've done into some of the early Auckland pioneering families. It's so easy to make assumptions, so I appreciate it when others review my comments.
- Alan.
Edit: OOP's and again as per my following post titled PAISLEY EMIGRATION SCOIETY ---------
A point of interest for me, has always been that the Jane Gifford [558 tonnes], the smaller sailing ship of the two, left port after the Duchess of Argyle [667 tonnes] but arrived on the same tide at Auckland. While both were piloted up the harbour on the evening tide, the Duchess did not remain clear of a sand bar, so the Jane Gifford was able to sail by, and drop anchor first. But just now going to my reference books I see that she left on June 18 only 9 days later [June 9th] NOT the three weeks I have in my mind.
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John BARR Married Jean CALDER, 03 July 1825, Abbey, (Paisley), Renfrew, Scotland
(Source IGI Extracted)
Trish :)
Hi All,
Just popping back with an update for this finding by Trish.
The Duchess of Argyle passenger manifest indicates that John Barr and Jean Calder must have been married earlier, as a son was born in 1823.
Further information has brought to light, that the boy John had a different mother but same father as the other children.
Jean Calder was John Barr's second wife.
As yet I have not located John Barr's first marriage. Or his parents.
The Calder family were involved as managers of textile factories with the father of Jean Calder being Humphrey Calder. All were from Renfrewshire.
Humphrey Calder married Isobel Kerr 30 Nov 1781 Abbey, Paisley, Renfrew, Scotland.
Children were,
John Calder 1785,
Elizabeth Calder 1787
William Calder 1792 spent some time in Huddersfield England. Managing a textile factory.
Robert Calder 1795
James Calder 1798 marr. Isobel Arthur 1820 Abbey Paisley and Mary Clarke, Campsie,Stirling,1831.
Emigrated to Richmond Virginia America.
Jean Calder 1805 marr John Barr. emig. to Auckland New Zealand 1842 , widowed 1846 and moved to South Autralia 1849.
The children of Humphrey were all born at Kilbarchan, Renfrewshire.
Parents of Humphrey Calder were John Calder and Elspeth Aitken ( from Christening record- residence "Eaglesham")(Abbey Paisley Parish Records)
I wanted to add the updated info for future searchers. ;D
I thought it was a good idea Beg, to leave your info, too.
regards
Julie
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Hello Julie.
Not sure from your post if you have checked out these.
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/Search/Search.aspx?Path=%2fqueryEntry.m%3ftype%3ddeaths#SearchResults
- Alan.
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Hello Julie.
Today I was able to hand over a print out of your opening post and March 30 update, to the Mr BARR that I know. He is unaware of when their family first arrived in NZ. He said he would make enquires with in family, and will get back if members are interested in learning more.
- Alan.
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Thank you Alan,
I am a bit tardy with my reply as I have been engaged in Armstrong research and hadn't come back to Rootschat for a while.
I appreciate your effort in delivering the info to the Barr family that you knew.
It turns out to be a name much like Smith in England. There are many families and I was lucky that others had found the right family for me.!!
Julie
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I did learn that John Barr born 1823, married Isabella Barr born 1820. Presumably the young woman travelling on the Duchess of Argyle with the families but not part of either.
Hi Julie,
I just wanted to add some feedback regarding Scottish marriage customs and naming vairations for your interest, or future research in the hopes it helps.
I have a Scottish ancestor born circa 1820 that I couldn't find a marriage record for, despite us knowing that he was married once before. I learned that in those times it was quite common practice for a "handfasting marriage" to be held for a couple (like a trial marriage) to ascertain the fertility of the wife. This could last up to three months, in which time if it was found the woman was infertile, the man could break the trial marriage and move on to another wife, who could bear children.
Perhaps this is the case of your John BARR and Isabella??
Secondly, the Scottish name of Jean was commonly transcribed in records as "Jane", which is the English derivitive. Janet is another derivitive of Jean or Jane.
Just something to consider when searching records....try all variations of the name, and see what pops up.
Incidentally I have loads of BARR relatives who lived on the Isle of Bute, which is just off the mainland coast of Paisley. Some of my BARR rellies moved to Paisley from Bute, and vice versa.
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Thank you Time Traveller,
I appreciate what you have shared with me.
I am researching families in Cumberland in the 1700's and have read reports from churchmen of their "trial" marriages.
These Cumberland families were on both sides of the border.
I didn't realize it was to check whether a woman was fertile!! :o :o
Well I guess it would have helped women too, in the event of the husband being infertile.
Although she might be seen as infertile and unmarriageable, in that event, when she wasn't infertile.
Love never got a look in! ::)
Makes the women seem like cattle purchased in a market place.
I will keep in mind all the name derivations. That's good advice.
Julie
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Hi All
Just to add to the conversation re John Barr. John Barr born 1822, married Isabella Barr born 1832, in 1850. My records say that John and Isabella were cousins. John's parents were John Barr and Jean Calder (perhaps step mother) and Isabella's parents were William Barr and Jean/Jane Browne. Death certificates mention they were born Johnstone Renfrewshire Scotland. They were my grandfathers parents.
Janie G
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Thanks Janie G.
Every detail helps to expand the tree. We are trying to find the parents of all of those Barrs listed on the manifest.
Your John and my Jeanie were brother and sister.
Nice to meet a new cousin regardless how far it goes back.
regards
Jules
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It might be worth my adding to the discussion by saying that "trial" marriage and "handfasting" marriage, which are supposed to have been ways of testing fertility, never in fact existed, but are much more recent folkloric inventions - I've just read "Marriage Law for Genealogists" by Professor Rebecca Probert, who's the world's leading authority on the history of marriage laws and practices, which explains in detail that the idea of this kind of informal or trial marriage are complete myths, invented either by the Victorians or even by C20th folklorists. She's also written a number of academic articles on the origins of the myths of trail marriage, broomstick weddings, handfasting and so on. Her book really is excellent for getting a much clearer understanding of the truth about the legal and social choices your ancestors had, without being coloured by the mythology and folklore. Also, I'm sure be very interested in hearing from you - she's at Warwick University and encourages genealogists to contact her with their stories of ancestors interesting marriages.
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Thanks LiamJDB,
I haven't any idea about marriage custom. To me they either married or they didn't. Just like today.
Thanks for your input though because my lack of knowledge could lead me to make wrong assumptions.
Jules
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Hi Jules
Interesting to hear you say you don't have any preconceived ideas about marriage customs - I've been working on the history of marriage law and practice for a while now, as Prof Probert's husband and sometime publisher, and the family history world seems to divide into people who start out with a belief in widespread 'folk' customs such as "jumping the broom" and "handfasting", and people who've never heard of them (because they didn't exist!). The long and the short of it is that before the late 1960s formal marriage was almost universal amongst couples who had a stable, sexual relationship. Basically, they married! The option of not marrying if you were in a sexual relationship, especially one that led to pregnancy, only dates back to the 1960s in statistically significant numbers. It was no more a lifestyle choice than getting dressed before you left the house!
Good luck with the genealogy!
Liam
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Hi Janie
John and Isabella were my Grt Grt Grandmother Mary Jane Barr's parents.
Do you know which ship they came to Australia on?? Family legend has it that Mary Jane was born on the ship coming into Sydney Harbour. I have only been able to find her Baptism, not a birth certificate.
Debbie
Hi All
Just to add to the conversation re John Barr. John Barr born 1822, married Isabella Barr born 1832, in 1850. My records say that John and Isabella were cousins. John's parents were John Barr and Jean Calder (perhaps step mother) and Isabella's parents were William Barr and Jean/Jane Browne. Death certificates mention they were born Johnstone Renfrewshire Scotland. They were my grandfathers parents.
Janie G
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Hi DeeBee,
You have tried to PM Jules but sadly his email address is not working.
Regards
Sarah
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Thanks Sarah