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General => Armed Forces => World War One => Topic started by: ALCAVTAY on Saturday 24 March 12 21:34 GMT (UK)
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Hello again, I have another help request from the war memorial.
Ernest C Benn was listed on the WW1 memorial.
There is only one Ernest C (Charles) Benn in the area in BMD and census records and he was born 29th May 1888 to Elizabeth and William Benn (occupation: shipwright)
There is only one E Benn on the CWGC database but the Soldiers Died in the Great War entry shows this is Edward Benn from Stratford.
There is only one Ernest C Benn medal card - Lancashire Fusiliers - but no record that he was a casualty of war.
any thoughts???
Ta
Mand
{edit} forgot to say there is a Benn, first name unknown died 1918 on the marine deaths register but I don't have a subscription to findmypast to get further details...
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{edit} forgot to say there is a Benn, first name unknown died 1918 on the marine deaths register but I don't have a subscription to findmypast to get further details...
This is Victor E Benn :)
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Thanks *crosses another bright idea off the list* ;)
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Mandy
Theres an Ernest Benn b 1858?? on Mercantile Marine Medal Cards.
If he died but unattributable to enemy action he wouldnt be on CWGC
I have no more info though
Ady
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Mand,
Presumably the memorial you refer to is in Liverpool? When was it dedicated?
Ernest Charles Benn does seem to disappear without trace, but looks worth pursuing. I can't see a marriage or death for him on FreeBMD. If you have access to the full BMDs on Ancestry etc, try to locate a death for him in later years, if only to rule him out.
Are there any AVLs for your area?
It is also worth checking the Scottish BMDs as there were several military hospitals across the border. He may have died post-discharge, without returning home, which means he could be missing from CWGC. One of my Non-Comms probably never left hospital, but died 6 months after being discharged from the Army.
To help you narrow it down a bit, I checked the airmen's index in AIR 78 and also the CEF and AIF records, just in case. I couldn't see anything.
Phil
Edit: Ignore the first bit. I've found it.
http://thewarmemorial.blogspot.co.uk/
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Phil,
Thanks for checking those records. I do have access to Ancestry and can't find any marriage or death records for him. In the 1911 census he was 22, single and worked as a coal dealer, still living with his mum.
Unfortunately there aren't any AVLs for Liverpool.
I'll have a look through the Scottish BMDs, thanks for the tip.
Mand
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Mand,
There appears to be a family grave at Toxteth Park, but Ernest is not buried in it from what I can see. Nor is his father, William, but if there is a headstone, it may be worth checking if he is mentioned on it.
Phil
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2 pieces of information which may be of assistance....
1. The following Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve: Record of Service is listed at the PRO: -
WW1Name Benn, Ernest Christopher
1894-1922 ADM 337/127 (The usual payment required to view the record on-line).
2. An E.C. Benn appears on the LNWR (London & North Western Railway) Great War Roll of Honour. Here is the entry...
Benn, E. C. Scaffolder Edge Hill Royal Navy Seaman.
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Thanks for the leads, can I just ask, the LNWR roll of honour, does it definitely say Royal Navy? I checked the online database and that just said Seaman which could be the Merchant Navy and would make more sense, with him not having a CWGC entry.
He seems to be the best bet so far, as he was definitely in Liverpool and died in the war. Unfortunately Ancestry don't seem to have any record of him in their LNWR collection.
The only Ernest Christopher Benn I can find in the BMD records was Welsh and survived the war, living until 1981.
Thanks again
Amanda
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There is an Ernest Benn, born Liverpool 1888, on someone's tree on GenesReunited.
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There is website with much detail on Toxteth Park Cemetery and inscriptions. Try Googling, in one word, 'toxtethparkcemeteryinscriptions', and you should find it useful.
A
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Can only see a Ernest P Benn on Merchantile Marine Medal lists on Ancestry Naval Medal Rolls but cant see him on the Naval Records so COULD be a mistake maybe worth purchasing the record to see what info is given.
Think he is down as Ernest C Bean on the 1911 census?
Ady
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Deleted
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There is website with much detail on Toxteth Park Cemetery and inscriptions. Try Googling, in one word, 'toxtethparkcemeteryinscriptions', and you should find it useful.
A
got it!
Ernest BENN, / who was lost at sea 20th March 1918, / aged 28 years.
He could be the Benn (no first name) on the deaths at sea index for 1918, on the Olympic, I believe it was used as a troopship, googled it and can't find any 'action' on that date so he wouldn't have been eligible for a war grave.
His mother's name on the inscription matches the Ernest Charles Benn from the census returns (Bean in 1911!) so I think it's him... may spend some cash and look at the mercantile marine record to see if that ties in too.
Thanks a lot everyone, good spot Ainslie!
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Ernest BENN, / who was lost at sea 20th March 1918, / aged 28 years.
He could be the Benn (no first name) on the deaths at sea index for 1918, on the Olympic, I believe it was used as a troopship, googled it and can't find any 'action' on that date so he wouldn't have been eligible for a war grave.
Not sure it is irrelevent whether there was an action or not - if he was merchant marine the qualification requirements are that his death has to be 'war related'. I would have thought that death while serving as crew on a troopship (eg Olympic - His Majesty's Transport 2810) would qualify.
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Basically to qualify the death has to be related to enemy action.
Imber
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I thought it was quite a narrow definition for the Mercantile Marine, being lost overboard from a troopship in stormy weather or dying of flu while on a troopship for example wouldn't count.
I guess I'll have to try and get a copy of the death certificate.
I've been unable to find any mention of anything happening on the date given on the grave although one diary entry does say it was a rough crossing:
A stormy crossing added a full day and a lot
of discomfort to the return crossing from
Liverpool to Halifax. Diary entries by the SMO,
Colonel Leprohon, record a number of storms
during several Atlantic crossings. "All night
furious gale and boat pitching heavily", he wrote
on 18 March 1918. "A great number of people
sick.... Waves are mountainous high."
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CONFUSED ???
so, the Benn on the Olympic was Ernest's brother Harry. Accidentally drowned so no war grave. His Mercantile Marine ID card doesn't have much info but does have a photo of him.
BUT the date of death matches the one given for Ernest on the grave inscription and Harry isn't on the war memorial.
I'm going to have a cup of tea, this is making my head hurt.
Mand
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Ok, so I noticed something else... here's the full inscription from Toxteth Cemetery:
In loving memory of / our dear mother / Elizabeth BENN, / died 6th Jan. 1927, aged 72 years. / Also Ernest BENN, / who was lost at sea 20th March 1918, / aged 28 years. / Also Margaret BENN, / died 26th Dec. 1911, aged 28 years. / *Peace, perfect peace.* / In loving memory of / my dear husband / Harry BENN, / died 18th April 1931, aged 44 years. / *He giveth His beloved sleep.*
Checking up BMD records I found that Harry Benn was actually christened Henry Benn. He was married in 1910, became a widower in 1911 (Margaret on the headstone) and remarried in 1918 (signing both Harry and Henry on the certificate) then died in 1931.
So, simplest answer seems to be that both brothers were in the Mercantile Marine and there was a mix up when Ernest died on the Olympic.
Any thoughts?
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Have you downloaded the RNVR record? If so what does it say?
Ady
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Hi Ady, you mean the one for Ernest Christopher Benn? There is someone of that name in the BMDrecords who lived 1899-1981 so I presume that's him... I've reached my limit for paying for speculative records for a while!
The Ernest P Benn in the MM Medal list didn't have any other info, but there was a Harry Benn, quartermaster on the same page - when 'our' Harry remarried in 1918 his occupation was quartermaster so that could be him.... doesn't really help though.
I would contact Barbara on GenesReunited - she has Ernest Benn b1888 Liverpool - but Idon't have a subscription...
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I sent Barbara a message this morning. I wouldn't hold your breath as I have a high failure rate in seeking a response from GR members! Dormant members are fairly common on GR.
Imber
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Thanks Imber, I appreciate it :)
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Hello. I was messaged via GR on Friday by 2 people. Sorry, only just got chance to look at my tree - haven't done anything for over 2 years.
Blimey!!
I don't know anything about Ernest Charles Benn b 1888 in Liverpool, except he was on census records in 1901. The GR census records had incorrectly transcribed surname as BERRN. Why do you want to know about Ernest? What is your relationship with him?
Ernest was brother to my mum's granddad Harry/ Henry Benn (B 1886 D 1931). My great granddad died just before my mum was born. As a small child, I met Ernest's sisters Mabel and Nellie. They both appear on mum's wedding pictures! I don't ever remember any talk about that Ernest B1886. Mum's granddad re-married after being widowed and the first son to his second wife was also named Ernest - he was born in 1919. (That may explain why he named his second son Ernest if his brother had been lost in the war??). Mum had a younger brother now about 72 - he is also named Ernest Benn and still living in Liverpool. I could try to ask him but he is quite frail now and may not know the answer. Sadly mum died about 18 months ago, so I can't ask her. Hope this helps!
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Sorry, I spell checked my posting and Blimey was translated to "Blimey" !!!
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Hi Barb Bee
thanks so much for getting in touch... this post went on so long that I'll send you a pm instead.
Mand