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Research in Other Countries => Europe => Topic started by: juniper on Friday 25 June 04 21:56 BST (UK)
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I am researching the surnames GOBENER/GOEBENER and SCHWARMANN/SWARMANN/SWARMAN. I am looking for descendants of TEWES GOBENER, sugarbaker from Selsingen? Hannover who settled in Whitechapel in the mid 1800s, & his wife EMMA SCHWARMANN. She was the daughter of HENRY SCHWARMANN who I believe was from Bremen, Germany. TEWES & EMMA had a large family, so I believe there may be some descendants still in UK. If anyone has any information I would be grateful for their help. Thanks.
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Have you tried a google-search for Schwarmann ?
I found:
"... Schwarmann Family - 8/26/99 -- I am a Richard Henry Schwarmann from Sagehorn, Germany, the birth place of the Schwarmanns, however living in the United States. ... "
with web-address:
http://www.hopefarm.com/ulsquer3.htm
I don't know how far "removed" Richard is, but the contact may be useful.
Hals und Beinbruch !
Bob
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Hello June,
I checked www.192.com for you.......
I found 3 Gobeners in the uk 2003/2004 Electoral Roll but no Schwarmann's sadley.
Regards
Sarah
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I wish I could find out when my gt. grandfather came to England from Germany is there a way I can do that? I can only find him on the 1901 census, he married 1890 and had his first child, that I am aware, in 1892 but cannot find him on the 1891 census as Benjamin Amsden Binner or Otto Herman(1st child's birth certificate) or Charles Hermann on 3rd children birth certificate. Regards Irene
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Hello Irene.
I am at a dead end myself with my German ancestry for the exact same reason - I just cannot find how to trace them on any passenger lists. If anyone can help I too would be grateful for any advice. I have looked at the Anglo Germany History Society website: www.art-science.com/agfhs ( Len Metzners Indexes?). But most passenger list sites seem to apply to those leaving Germany for USA e.g. www.olivetreegenealogy.com. I had a look via google for Binner genealogy but not much there for you. Wish I could help. If anyone can help point Irene and myself in the right direction please get in touch. Thanks.
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Hello Irene,
Can you not find any of the family in the 1891 Census ???
What was his occupation at the time, maybe this may give you a clue. I saw this article on German miners which is what made me think of you.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/legacies/immig_emig/england/cumbria/article_1.shtml
Sarah
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Here is some basis information I found on Germany
Germany
The territory of Germany has varied considerably over the centuries. Until 1871 Germany consisted of numerous independent kingdoms, duchies, principalities and states, whose borders often changed and merged. In 1871 all states except the Austrian states were consolidated into the German Empire, under the leadership of Prussia.
After the First World War, some areas ceded to France, Belgium and Denmark. Posen and parts of Silesia and West Prussia ceded to Poland and the northern tip of East Prussia (Memel) went to Lithuania.
After the Second World War, East Prussia divided between Poland and Russia; most of Pommerania, West Prussia and Silesia went to Poland.
Record Keeping in Germany was not consistent until 1876 and very much depends on the state.
Archives
Internal provincial border changes often make it hard to determine which archive has the particular records you need. Some archives are:
Zentralstelle fur Genealogie
Georgi-Demitroff-Platz 1
O-7010
Leipzig
(Holds vital statistic records for more than 400 communities)
Leo Baeck Institute
New York
NY 10021
Web site: www.lbi.com
Births, Marriages and Death Registry Offices
Senatsverwaltung fur Inneres in Berlin
IC 506/507
Fehrbelliner Platz
D-10702 Berlin
There is no central registry office in Berlin, each district has its own. If the exact address of the district is not known, the above may be of use.
Landesarchiv Berlin
Kalckrreuthstrasse 1-2
D-10777 Berlin
Holds lists of Berlin deportations and other Berlin Jewish Communal material
Bundesarchiv
Berliner Strasse 98-101
O-1561 Potsdam
Staatsbibliothek (a major library)
Unter den Linden 8,
Postfach 1312
O-1086 Berlin
Hamburg Staatsarchiv website www.hamburg.de/fhh/behoerden/staatsarchiv/ has a searchable database with details of many emigrants embarking at Hamburg.
State Archive Stuttgart
Konrad-Adenauerstrasse 4
D-780137 Stuttgart
Email: Hauptstaatarchiv[AT]s.lad-bw.de
Web site: www.lad-bw.de
Generallandesarchiv Karlsuhe
Nordliche Hildapromenade 2
D-76133 Karlsruhe
Moderator Comment: e-mail edited, to avoid spamming and other abuses. Please replace [AT] with @
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Sorry I have been away so have not been on the sight for awhile.
No luck tracing my german gt.gdf. He was a hairdresser. He married my english gt.gdm and they had a large family. The family story goes that after WW1 he was repatriated back to Germany, the ship he was on was blown up at sea and he died. I have him in the 1901 census but not sure about 1891 (could be him) Cannot find the marriage certificate. Not sure of his german name. I have him as Charles Hermann in census and my grandfather's birthcertificate but my grandfather's sisters have him as Otto Hermann on their birth certificates. He married Alice Stroud.(if they married)
I have purchased 2 marriage certificates that are no good to me.
Otto Reinhold Haus/Hans Herrmann
Benjamin Armsden Biner
both marrying an Alice. Any use to you please let me know.
Where does one go from here.
Regards Irene
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Can I just add to Sarahs mail that the postcodes for Germany have changed.
the O prefix was for the eastern states and W for West. They were all replaced by the D prefix.
Also, the 4 digit codes have all been replaced by 5 digit ones.
;)
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its really difficult isnt it my hubbies side is really hard they came over sometime in 1790-1810 they are on the 1841 & 1851 but it only says from germany Samuel Raphael married Sarah Franc? in 1833 in Great synagogue but only names I have for parents aretheir jewish ones he was Shmuel son of Meir Halevi and she was Zelfa dau of Shlomech Zalaman
can trace them forward but not backward lots of people seem to have been researching this family but nobody can get any further back I am not sure with all the name changes that these families have Jewish families have cerimonial names and familiy names and civic names
Still we all keep trying I did find http://www.jewishgen.org/databases was quite helpful
http://jewishwebindex.com
http://www.eclipse.co.uk
sandie
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Hi Juniper,
Your original query was a while ago, but I was just browsing through RootsChat and saw sugarbaker and immediately thought of this site:
http://www.mawer.clara.net/intro.html
It is a site devoted to german Sugar Refiners & Sugarbakers who emigrated to the U.K.
The site has history, sources, locations and a database of (as of today) 15,184 names !
This site is a must, for general info, and specifically, german sugar-working immigrants !
Just for fun, I looked up Gobener and found
GÖBEN Hermann - (Zucker-becker) (verh. St.Michaelis) Hamburg 1755
I don't know how good your german is, so just in case:
zucker is sugar and becker is probably a phonetic spelling of Bäcker or missprint of Baecker, meaning Baker
verh. is an abbreviation of verheiratet = married
A possible ?
Try out some other possible name changes as well.
Good Luck !
p.s.
just discovered the site was recommended here on RootsChat by JDG.
Thanks, JDG, it's a great site !
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Hi Juniper,
probably too much to hope for, that some one says "is this the one ?" and it is !
Still, we all keep trying, and one day .................
Going off on a tangent:
I notice you are looking for Baxters and Colemans.
I have a Joseph Baxter, who married Hessie Stevenson, about 1850's in Ireland (the wife's g-g-grandparents),
and
I have a Henry Frederick Coleman, came over from Germany, probably between 1882 (he's not in the 1881 census) and 1887, when he married Rose Elvina Breeze (my g-grandparents).
Probably no connections at all (both had fairly small families), but, no harm in asking .......
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Still looking for Schwarmann from Sagehorn ?
I was looking up someone else recently in a german database (GEDBAS) and out of idle curiosity I typed in Gobener (no hits) and Schwarmann (1 hit)
http://gedbas.genealogy.net/datenblatt.jsp?nr=7205535
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Margaretha Schwarmann
geboren: 1685 Sagehorn
gestorben: B 23.10.1719 Sagehorn
Eltern
Ehepartner und Kinder 5.9.1710 - Henrich LÜSSEN
T 11.10.1711 - Henrich LÜSSEN
T 11.3.1713 - Lüder LÜSSEN
T 8.12.1715 - Anna Liesbeth LÜSSEN
T 15.10.1717 - Margarethe LÜSSEN
Einsender:
Elk Bensemann
elkbensemann[AT]hotmail.com
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The 'T' next to the children is probably for 'Taufe' - Baptism
Don't know if you can do anything with the info. but I thought you might like to see it ! Maybe add it to your family chronicle as a footnote ?
Regards,
Bob
Moderator Comment: e-mail edited, to avoid spamming and other abuses. Please replace [AT] with @
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Hi Bob, :) Have not checked for a few days so was lucky to pick up your message so quickly. Thanks for the information on Schwarmann. Will keep it on file. I have been concentrating on Gobener last couple of weeks because of reunion on Sunday with new Gobener cousins. Your recent advice proved helpful and have now realised Gobener & Goebener are same name, the latter without the umlaut over the o. Now having some success in Selsingen area of Hannover. Looking for Nicholas Gobener / Nicolaus Goebener in Hannover & found one in Selsingen. Now looking for link between him & my TEWES! Thanks again. J.
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Hi Juniper,
Good luck with the reunion ...
... and when you get back to Schwarmann:
I have posted another site in "Sharing useful Links: Germany ...": http://www.geneanet.org/
I typed Schwarmann and got a list of 4, including Margaretha Schwarmann from Sagehorn (btw: pronounced saga-horn).
Different contact address from the GEDBAS one, so I clicked on that, which gave a web-address: http://www.gencircles.com/users/cpsmitchell/1
for Carol Peymann Mitchel and more Schwarmann details ....
But, one thing at a time ! Hope you have a great time at the family reunion !
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Hi Bob,
Thanks once again for all your kind help. Had a quick look. Those names keep cropping up! Wish I could link them to mine. Will get emailing! All the best. J.
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If this thread is still being read, the Anglo-German Historical Society has published a book on German hairdressers in the UK. Irene, you mentioned that your ancestor was a hairdresser earlier in this thread. I have not yet seen this book, although a relative of mine has it and reports that there are actual names included.
The book is called:
German Hairdressers in the UK: their effect upon the British way of life, by Jenny Towey, London: Anglo-German Family History Society, 2004. It is available through http://www.genfair.com/shop/pages/ang/page04.html
Thanks for the info about the repatriation ship being blown up at sea; I am still trying to find out what happened to my interned relative, Peter Krein (who was not a hairdresser).
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Have looked at the book on Amazon and it is £14 but expensive if my gt.grandfather is not mentioned. Does anyone have the book please and if so could they please check if he is there. Otto Herman/Charles Herman (looks like he did his training at Hoxton. Many thanks Irene
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I'm surprised you found the book at amazon, as it wasn't there when I was looking for it a while back.
Anyhow, I now have the book.
There is a Charles Hermann, 6 Manilla St., Millwall, E whom the book says is listed in the 1902 London Trade Directory under Hairdressers and Perfumers.
There are also several other people surnamed Herman(n): Jack, Jacob, Joseph, Pieterkosky, Emil, Gustav, Joseph, Julius, and Peter.
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Yes thank you so much that is my gt.grandfather at 6 Manilla St. Does it say anything more about him. Would I find anything else out if I bought the book. Did you see it listed on Amazon 4-6 week wait. Many many thanks for your kind reply. Irene
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Glad I could help!
No, it doesn't say anything more about him specifically; he is just one in a long list - my greatgrandfather is on the page opposite, further down the list!
The book is useful though for giving the context of their work, and it gives some clues along the way as to how one might do further research.
I can envision a better book, but this is useful inasmuch as there isn't anything else on the topic, and it is a beginning. If you are planning on doing more extensive work on his "world", then I would suggest you get the book.
On the other hand, if you're not really all that interested in hairdressers and their struggles, then perhaps not. A good chunk of the book is taken up with the author's own discovery of her family back in Germany and how she was able to find them and meet them. There are numerous photos which are interesting as well, and some examples of various forms, and a one-page bibliography.
I ordered mine directly, and didn't have to wait very long at all, FYI. The book is 140pages, printed on large paper in largish print, paperback.
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Thank you so very much for taking the trouble to reply. I went to the records office in Bancroft Road and saw the entry in the directory for Charles Hermann, hairdresser. My gt.gdf can be found at the address mentioned in the 1901 census. I am hoping that when I can get to Kew(I live in Norfolk)there may be a copy of an Indenture that he completed to serve his apprenticeship, you never know. Thank you again for your help. Many thanks Irene
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The confusion in forenames might be due to the fact that Germans typically used the final of their 2 or 3 or 4 forenames as the one they were known by, whereas the British may have referred to them by their first forename.
Where does Bin(n)er fit in? That is completely different.
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Hi
I am new to this forum, but I was intrigued by your post. I have the name Tewes in my wife's ancestry but the name is a surname, not a first name. Our family member is Joseph Tewes (born 1850, Germany) who turns up in the East End of London around 1870 - Interestingly because of the differences in pronunciation (Tewes is pronounced 'Tevis' in German) the family were entered on one of the Census' as 'Davis'
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Hi,
The name TEWES is unusual and I am now finding other relatives on my Steffens side (the mother of my Tewes Goebener was Marie Steffens) with that name too. It seems the spelling of the name Tewes in the Steffens family in Malstedt and Selsingen in Hannover was often shown as THEES or THEIS. In fact, when I found our TEWES on the 1851 Census in Shadwell/Wapping, London, his name was written as THEIS. From the 1861 onwards his name was written as TEWES. We have seen our TEWES written in error as LEWIS on transcription of his marriage regn on Ancestry but I don't know if he was known as Lewis or how his name of TEWES was prononced. I am grateful to you for the pronounciation of your family name of "TEVIS" and I think this pronounciation may be a possibility. It's not one I have come across before. There was a Sugarbaker in London shown on the Mauer list with surname of TEWES; sure I picked him up at one stage - is he yours?.
To update the information on this Post, I have now confirmed my family connection back to Selsingen and Malstedt, with the help of the St. Lamberti Lutheran Church in Selsingen and have our TEWES' date of birth, both parents names and can trace back on the Goebener line now to 1600s. They kindly passed my letter on to a researcher in Hamburg who found the information for me. I am now working on the Steffens tree and am back to Tewes grandfather, VALERIUS STEFFENS born August 27, 1766 in Malstedt, Hannover. I have Steffens relies in San Diego, South California, and Alaska who I am now trying to prove the link too. Most are descended from siblings of our MARIE STEFFENS who left Malstedt in the 1860s and later.
It goes to show that if you keep persevering, even though deadended for years, we can with the help and inspiration of other researchers eventually get a good result.
So thank you all for your very kind help. Juniper
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Hi, back again, I recently tried to use the new ancestry.co. uk data re 1850 passenger lists from Hamburg to pick up my gr gr gr grandfather Tewes Gobener. The Anglo Germany FHS say he arrived in London on the Caledonia on 5th November 1850. I trawled through the 1850 ancestry passenger lists but cannot find the Caledonia nor a Gobener anywhere. As there are about 178 pages on that years list, in no sort of apparent order, to go thru I gave up. A very expensive exercise! What did I do wrong? Would just like to see if anyone else was travelling with him at the time. Just wondered if anyone else had found anyone on the new lists successfully? Juniper
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I don't know the answer to your question, but I do know that ancestry is haphazard with their indexing.
Can you not ask the AGFHS for a reference as to where they got this? I believe Len Metzner or whatever his name is, is still living, for instance. Perhaps he, or someone, still has a copy of whatever they got this from.
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Hi Loo,
Yes, I think that is my best route now. Will go back to Anglo German FHS and ask them to check the entry out further for me. Probably a more sensible solution! After all they must have had sight of the original initially. Thanks. Juniper
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Do let us know how you make out with that, please.