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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: alisonb123 on Tuesday 20 March 12 22:22 GMT (UK)
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Hi
I know this is a long shot but I live in hope. My Gt Grandfather was William Reeves who married my Gt Grandmother Frances Ada Dines from Bethnal Green, London. Although William was using the surname Reeves his name was actually Anderson or Henderson. I think his mum died and his dad remarried then his father died, he decided at the age of 11 to leave Hamilton and go to London where he joined a circus and ended up being taken in by Edward Reeves whom he states is his father on his wedding certificate. I am told that he had a twin brother called John and I do know that John jumped off a bridge, killing himself leaving his wife to bring up their 3or4 children. My dad had a letter that the wife had wrote to William and his wife telling them of the brothers suicide. A family member took this letter and has never returned it.
Any help would be appreciated, I don't know William's DOB but I think it will be around 1870 and he was from Hamilton.
Thanks
Alison
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Do you have an approximate date for John jumping off the bridge? And any idea where the bridge was?
I see from FreeBMD that William Reeves married Frances Ada Dines in Stepney in 1897. However there is a family in Bethnal Green in the 1901 census consisting of William Reeves, 26, born Millwall; Frances Reeves, 29, born Millwall; William J Reeves, 3, born Stepney; Thomas E Reeves, 1, born Bethnal Green. FreeMBD has a birth of a Thomas Edward Reeves in the 4th quarter of 1899, and a William John Reeves in Mile End in the 4th quarter of 1897.
I have failed to find a William Reeves, born in Scotland, in either the 1891 or 1901 census.
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The marriage was 1897 and the 1901 census gives William's place of birth as Millwall ???
Just noticed your addition Forfarian
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in 1911 census he is a dock labourer born Scotland
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Is he 36 in 1911? So born 1874/5?
There is no William Henderson or Anderson, born in Hamilton, with a twin brother named John, in the CD-ROM version of the 1881 census in the southern half of Scotland, including Lanarkshire.
There's a 4-year-old William Henderson with a 1-year-old brother John in Maryhill, Glasgow and a 9-year-old William Henderson with a 12-year-old brother John in Hamilton itself.
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I think the letter that was wrote regarding John's suicide was dated 1903, I do not remember what bridge it was only that it was in Glasgow.
Alison
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Right. If I were you this is what I would do.
If John and William were indeed twins, and William's age in the 1901 census is correct, John should be aged about 28 in 1903.
So I would go to www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk and buy 30 credits for £7. I would then search for a death of *nderson, John, between 1901 and 1903, aged 20 to 50, in Lanark(shire), which will produce 22 matches. Or maybe 1901 to 1904, age range 20 to 45, which produces 24 matches. Then I would use one credit to view the matches, and see if there are any which look likely.
If the listed matches contain one aged about 28, death registered in Glasgow*, I'd use 5 more credits to look at his death certificate and see the cause of death. I'd still have 24 credits, which is enough to look at 4 more certificates if I got the first one(s) wrong, plus enough to view two 'Registers of Corrected Entries' which there are likely to be as it was a case of suicide.
*Glasgow contains a number of registration districts, e.g. Kelvin, Partick, Gorbals, Dennistoun etc etc.
The death certificate would tell me the full names of both of John's, and therefore William's, parents, including his mother's maiden name.
Happy hunting!
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Found it
John died 1904 from a fractured skull at Auchincampbell Bridge in Hamilton. John's parents were given as
John Anderson and Elizabeth Reeves previously Anderson maiden name Fraser both deceased
Send your email address by pm and I will forward the certificate
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RCE confirms it was recorded as suicide
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Well done, sancti
Very kind of you to use your own credits for Alison.
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That was great Sancti, well done on that one!
See mother Elizabeth Fraser went on to marry a Reeves - maybe that is the origin of the surname change of son William, from Anderson to Reeves, that Alison mentions? Maybe it was their Anderson father that died young and mother remarried a (?Edward) Reeve?
Monica
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Wow, I am amazed. Thank you so much.
I can't wait to tell my dad. He has parkinson's and I don't think his mind is going to be all there for much longer so this is very special to me that I can pass some info onto him. I am going to see if there is any other info on Scotlands People.
Thanks again.
Alison ;D
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Hi Alison
That was a great find by Sancti wasn't (I did wonder earlier whether anything could be found...and it has!).
Once Sancti has confirmed the cert details to you, it would help (Sancti, where are you?! I am lost on the searches again!) to know who John Anderson was married to. This will help you to find his marriage cert and also his census entries. Also what his occupation and the occupation of his father was.
His age on index shows as 28 in 1904, so born c. 1876-7 perhaps?
Can't see easily a death for mother Elizabeth with these combinations of surnames: Anderson/Fraser/Reeves so maybe her death was not in Scotland?
Monica
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Yes, I must admit like I said in my original post, "it was a long shot", but I knew if I was going to have any luck it would be with Rootschat, with the great knowledge you guys have and your willingness to help. I can't thank you all enough for taking you time out to help me.
I have just found the Marriage Cert but am off to pick kids up from school so will take a detalied look when I get back. Will let you know what it says.
Alison
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I'm picking up late today from school which is why I am still here! More updates later :)
Monica
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Hmmm.
According to the new Familysearch web site (I just hate[/b] it compared to the old IGI, but I can't access the old site today for some reason)
John Anderson and Elizabeth Fraser were married in the parish of Urray, Ross and Cromarty, on 7 June 1861 and had
Ann, born 20 September 1863
Robert, born 7 April 1865
William, born 16 June 1867 died 17 June 1867
William, born 30 May 1869
John, born 17 May 1872
all in Inverness. And yes, John's age is 4 years 'out' compared with his death certificate.
There are also listings for
Christina, born Glasgow 10 May 1869
Abbina, born Greenock 10 May 1869 (yes, the same day, just 3 weeks before William)
but these two are 'submitted' so can safely be ignored.
In the 1881 census the only possible John A is a boarder in the household of Duncan Fraser at Lagnalion, Inverness, but I have not found any of the other children yet.
Edward Reeves, street singer, aged 31, born England, and Margaret Reeves, 29, born Kirkcaldy, are among numerous lodgers at 65 Grassmarket, Edinburgh. The CD transcription does not say whether either or both was married. The index at SP lists one match for a marriage of Edward Reeves to an Elizabeth A* in 1883, but the bride's surname is apparently neither Fraser nor Anderson.
You might find it useful to get these two marriage certificates from SP and see what they reveal.
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This is the Marriage Certificate.
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Death certificate and RCE sent 8)
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Thanks am just downloading them now
Alison
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From the marriage cert info posted, this looks to be John and new wife Georgina in 1901:
John Anderson 26, coal miner b. Glasgow
Georgina Anderson 22 b. Linlithgow
Address: Springwell Place, Hamilton
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Sancti, not sure if you have checked already. Would there be any mention of John's suicide I wonder in perhaps the Glasgow Herald :-\ What was the date of his death or enquiry from the RCE? Maybe further details from more local papers?
Monica
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Death was 24 August 1904, informant was his Brother-in-law
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Thanks Sancti :)
Struggling still to link up the big pieces...
Do not think the Inverness-shire family of a John Anderson and an Elizabeth Fraser is the right one...but not yet seeing the right one!
I thought this might be John Snr going by location and occupation in 1871:
Janet Anderson 60
Ann Anderson 58
John Anderson 23, boiler maker b. Glasgow
David Anderson 18
Herriet Anderson 16
Address: 31 Mansfield St, Partick, Govan
ADDED: Above John can't be the correct one as this John is showing in 1881 married to a Marion, occupation boiler maker and still living in Partick.
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Monica, I have come to the same conclusion as you .... looks as if the Inverness family is a red herring then .... still can't find John in 1881. Unless he is the 4-year-old orphan in a home in Kilmacolm. In which case where is William?
How old was William in 1897 according to his marriage certificate?
I tried the Gale 19th century newspapers but the Glasgow Herald, as I feared, only goes to 1900.
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Couldn't find a suitable John and William with parents 1881
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William shows as aged 22 in the parish entry to his 1897 marriage to Frances, father Edward Reeves is down as a retired sailor (no mention of him being deceased).
This is all a bit confusing isn't :-\ We really do not have much to go on so far to try and link the family group together.
Couldn't see a likely death for mother Elizabeth on SP with the names we have so far.
Did see this entry for 1891 earlier on today, which is more interesting now given what we now know of brother John's occupation:
Mary Hamilton 50
John Ferguson 15
James Ferguson 11
Robert Ferguson 37
John Reeves 19, boarder, coal miner b. Glasgow
William Smith 18
William Reeves 16, boarder, coal miner b. England
Francis McMuerry 16
John Murray 15
John Dick 16
Address: No 26 Larkfield, Blantyre Lanarkshire
Forfarian, when Gale tail off in 1900, you have to work off exact dates and look in the Glasgow Herald here http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=GGgVawPscysC
I am beginning to wonder whether Elizabeth married either John Anderson or Edward Reeves - can't see any marriage for her on either SP or www.freebmd.org.uk so far.
Monica
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I am beginning to wonder whether Elizabeth married either John Anderson or Edward Reeves - can't see any marriage for her on either SP or www.freebmd.org.uk so far.
I've been wondering the same thing.
This may be another poke o' red herrings, but in the 1891 census there's an Edward Reeves, 37, seagoing engineer, born Deptford, living in Westoe, County Durham, with wife Eliza, 48, born Poplar. And in 1901 there's an Edward Reeves, 53, harbour pilot, with wife Elizabeth, 52, both of them born and living in Bristol.
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We are at the very frustrating bit!
How old do we guess Elizabeth Fraser may be when having John and William? Guessing perhaps born c. 1840s, maybe early 1850s if John and William were born in the mid 1870s.
Monica
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I note with great interest (now that the old IGI is up and running again) that a John Fraser, son of Elizabeth Fraser, no father named, was born in Glasgow Tradeston on 19 February 1872. This John would have been aged 19 on the day of the 1891 census.
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John is buried in Common ground
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Hi Alison
I've just come across your message written in March regarding William Reeves or Anderson. Did you find the information you were looking for? My Grandmother, Georgina was married to John Anderson when he committed suicide on their wedding anniversary and while she was pregnant with their second child. John jumped from the Auchincampbell Bridge in Hamilton in 1904. I have a photo of John taken with my Grandmother and their daughter, Elizabeth.
If I can help with any other information let me know.
Macy56
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Hi macy
Thanks for getting in touch. I would love to see the photo and see what other information you have. You csn email me at (*) looking forward to hearing back from you.
Alison
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
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Hi again Alison
This is what I know about John Anderson. I had no idea that he had a twin brother because I haven't got around to looking into his background. As I said John married my Grandmother, Georgina Fraser Snedden in 1900 in Hamilton age 24yrs. He was a coal Miner. They had 2 daughters, Elizabeth born 1901 and Robina born 1903 (sorry I gave you the wrong info that Georgina was pregnant when John died). Elizabeth died age 31yrs a year after giving birth to her daughter, Georgina (father unknown). I knew my auntie, Robina (aka Beanie) who died in the 1970s. Hope this makes sense?
I have John and Georgina's marriage extract and a copy of the RCE regarding his death. I have also visited the bridge and it is very high! My mum told me John was depressed because he couldn't find a job to support his family. I can give you copies of the above and a copy of the photo I mentioned earlier by scanning and e-mailing to you or by posting if you would prefer.
Nice to hear from you Alison.
Kind regards
Macy
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Hi Alison and Macy,
I know I am joining this conversation a little late but I have recently started looking into my family tree and find it fascinating. William Anderson is my Gt Grandfather. I would love to see the photograph of his brother John.
Like you, I am struggling to find any information prior to the wedding between William and Francis Dines in 1897. I would love to know what William did during his period of travelling between ages 11-22, and any information about his childhood before he left home. Basically any information that people would be happy to share about the entire family!
Thank you,
Teddy
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Just a wee point, and I'm wondering if it's causing the problem with the parents of William and John, but if you look at John's marriage certificate both his mother and his wife's mother are given as an Elizabeth nee Fraser and I'm wondering if that was a mistake by the Registrar? His wife's middle name is Fraser so it looks as if her mother is correct. I may be wrong?
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Hi Teddy
I would be happy to pass on any information I have regarding John Anderson including the photo. Alison, who I've been in touch with is from John's side of the family so she knows more than me and I'm sure would be happy to help you. We've been unable to trace John's birth entry and wonder if it could be down to his name not being spelled correctly or even if he was registered under another name (not uncommon). You're correct that their mother's names are both Elizabeth Fraser. Don't know if it's correct for John but my Grandmother, Georgina's, mother was definitely, Elizabeth Fraser. I've visited the cemetery where John is buried and it's common ground with no marking, which is so sad. It would be nice if the Council put up a sign in commemoration of the poor souls who lie there. I've also been to the house he lived in with my Grandmother when he died. Also, if you saw earlier posts, I thought I had made a mistake when I said that my Grandmother was pregnant at the time John died, Alison later found information that she was and the baby died at a few months old. If you have any information to pass on to me and Alison it would be great to hear from you.
Kind regards
Macy
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Hi Teddy
It is lovely to hear from you. I have lot's of information that I am really happy to share with you. I also have all the family photo's. When my uncle John died I was lucky enough to be given a big bag of photo's. There is one problem though, they have no information on them but I cherish them not just for myself but for all of the family that are interested in our past. Not sure if admin will let me post my email but I will try it's . It would be great to speak to you so if you can email me I will give you my phone number.
Alison
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Alison,
I think it's more because bots can pick up your email and start using it for spam that Admins ask you to remove it or amend it?
You might want to send it by PM and remove it from here?
Carolineasb
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Myself and other family members are looking for information on my Great grand father. His name was William Anderson, although he used the surname Reeves. Reeves was his mother's 2ND husband. He died in 1946 and was 71 at the time of death. His father is stated as John Anderson and his mother is Elizabeth Reeves formerly Anderson and maiden name Fraser.
William left the family at a unknown age but maybe 11 or 12. This was due to his mother dying and his step father remarrying. He had a brother called John and there is possibly a sister called Robina. I'm wondering if anyone here can find anything. Thanks
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Hi ,
Who did William Anderson/Reeves marry ?
Do you have any further information from that marriage cert. ?
ev
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Hi,
Were the family in Lanarkshire at the time of William's mother's remarriage? I can't see a marriage in Scotland for an Elizabeth Fraser to a male Reeves.
The only marriage I have found between two people with those names is in Sprowston , Norfolk in England - an Elizabeth Frazer and a Charles Reeve (no s ) on 1 Nov 1876 (so not an impossible date).
Looby :)
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Hi
There is a ton of background/extra information here on an old 2012 post, which is useful to this new topic and will save some going over of already known information:
Threads merged.
William REEVES/ANDERSON married in 1896 in Stepney, London to Frances Ada DINES.
His brother John, died 1904, Hamilton, Lanarkshire - I'm still reading thru the old thread.
Cheers
AMBLY
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On Williams marriage cert he has an Edward Reeves stated as being his father.
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I can't conform where she was living when she married Anderson or Reeves. I do believe William had roots in Glasgow or surrounding areas.
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So, having read through the rest of the old thread....
You still need to establish if Elizabeth Frazer was ever married to either John Anderson or Edward Reeves.
You haven't found a birth for either John (jnr) or William Anderson.
You haven't found either on the 1881 or 91 Census.
You haven't found a death for Elizabeth Frazer/Anderson/Reeves.
Gosh, they are hiding well !!
Looby :)
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I now have a letter written by Georgina Johns wife to my Gt Grandfather William. This explains william name and is very informative.This was after Johns death. I cant seem to attach and post to the forum though.
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Just want to clarify….
Did your William REEVES ever actually use the surname ANDERSON? Have it recorded anywhere in any document etc?
Cheers
AMBLY.
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I dont know. He didn't seem to know he was an Anderson. His sister in law told him in a letter.
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I have checked both Johns death cert and marriage cert. His mother's maiden name is Fraser on both.
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I dont know. He didn't seem to know he was an Anderson. His sister in law told him in a letter.
If he didn't know he was an Anderson, I ponder how did he reconcile the fact his brother was Anderson, or used Anderson and he was Reeves, or used Reeves. Presumably, there was an established relationship between the two men at least -Georgina Fraser Anderson, nee Sneddon (his sister in law) had William's address.
It would be nice to understand Georgina's letter and contexts - are you still having problems uploading some of it, or maybe you can type it out?
Also, William died 1946 in England. Have you found him on the 1939 Register? His declared date of birth will be on there, if he is.
The reason for my question about his name, I was wondering if they were actually half brothers, or even step brothers - their indicated birth years are 1875 (William) and 1876 (John).
Which lead to my the next reply below....
Cheers
AMBLY
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I have checked both Johns death cert and marriage cert. His mother's maiden name is Fraser on both.
That was what started me thinking.....
On his 24 Aug 1900 marriage:
John ANDERSON 30, of Robertson's Building, Greenfield, Hamilton, Glasgow, Coal Miner
Parents: Both deceased
John ANDERSON, Boilermaker Journeyman.
Elizabeth REEVES, formerly ANDERSON, m.s. FRASER
He married Georgina Fraser SNEDDON of 30 Glasgow Road, Hamilton - the same address where the marriage occurred.
Parents: Peter SNEDDON, Coal Miner, deceased,
Elizabeth THOMAS, previously SNEDDON, m.s. FRASER.
It was pointed out on an earlier 2012 reply...
His mother: Elizabeth REEVES, formerly ANDERSON, m.s. FRASER
Her mother: Elizabeth THOMAS, formerly SNEDDON, m.s. FRASER
And you know Georgina's mother is correct as shown there - her middle name also 'Fraser'.
What if Elizabeth's stated name is incorrect, a mistake by the registrar/writer/clerk? Could it be that Fraser was never part of her name?
On John's 1904 Death his parents are recorded exactly the same:
John Anderson and Elizabeth Reeves previously Anderson maiden name Fraser
But that could simply be Georgina (or whomever was the informant) repeating what she believes to be true from her Marriage record.
Also, you mentioned William possibly had a sister named Robina? What's the background on that information? ( I know John had a daughter named Robina b 1903, from earlier information posted here)
cheers
AMBLY
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13/5/06.
Dear William
I received your letter and I may say I was married under the name of Anderson. My husband informed me that when your father died, your mother married Reeves and when your mother died your step-father married again which left you with both step-parents. Therefore your father's name was Anderson.
I have heard John speak about your mother's sister being flitted to some place in Sterling.
I am sorry to tell you that I have had some trouble through measles to two of my children. My children's names are Lizzie, Robina and Jeanie. Lizzie after your mother, Robina after your sister and Jeanie after myself.
I am glad to hear of yourself wife and family keeping in good health.
I will now close my letter hoping to hear from you soon.
Yours sincerely
Mrs Anderson
This is the info from the letter.
Thank you looking into this for me.
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It is possible that the Fraser maiden name was incorrect. It's so hard to know anything for sure. Although with all the information there is, it should be an easy find but isn't. Something is confusing the search.
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This is totally .... have I been part of a previous query about this family ???
After reading the letter transcript you just posted.....I thought, I'll just have a wee look in Scotland's People Marriages for Edward REEVES
The ONLY one I could see as a possibility was 1883 - and I've already viewed and paid for this image back in 2012! I guess I must have been trying to help back then, downloaded that image and never went further, thinking I was on wrong track. :(
So this is it, maybe nothing, but who knows:
Registered in Dennistoun, Lanark.
Marriage 29th Sept 1883 at Blackfriars House. Dennistoun
Edward REEVES 35, Musician, Bachelor, of 56 Kings Street, Calton, Glasgow,
Father: Edward REEVES, Seaman, ---- Deceased
Mother: Helen REEVES, ms CLETHEROE
Elizabeth AILWOOD 29, Domestic Servant, Spinster, of 56 Kings Street, Calton, Glasgow
Father: Henry AILWOOD, General Labourer, Deceased
Mother: Agnes AILWOOD, ms DAVIS, Deceased.
Witness: Thomas MARTIN and Agnes SOMERVILLE
Also: Both Bride & Groom have signed with their X MARK. The officiating Minister, Thomas SOMERVILLE has co-signed each as a witness to their marks.
When William married Frances Ada, his father: Edward REEVES, Retired Sailor.
Hmm,
So William had written to Georgina, and she replied but this was 1906, 2 years after John died.
Oh, how curious - Musing out load (as I'm sure you also do ;D) What lead to Georgina correcting William regards the surname Georgina was married as/to... How did William address her in prior letter's?
* William's mother Elizabeth had a sister, who was said to be in service in Sterling
* William had a sister named Robina
Cheers
AMBLY
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"I have heard John speak about your mother's sister being flitted to some place in Sterling"
Flitted = Moved House
Sterling = Stirling
Annie
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The Bent Cemetery Burial Records show the following:
ANDERSON, John, age 36, interred on 26 August 1904, address 52 Glasgow Road, Hamilton
ANDERSON, Georgina, age 3, interred 23 April 1908, address 8 Gladstone Street
ANDERSON, Georgina, age 48, interred 13 April 1926, address Woodlea Asylum, Lenzie
Cheers,
Rodeo
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The Bent Cemetery Burial Records show the following:
ANDERSON, John, age 36, interred on 26 August 1904, address 52 Glasgow Road, Hamilton
ANDERSON, Georgina, age 3, interred 23 April 1908, address 8 Gladstone Street
ANDERSON, Georgina, age 48, interred 13 April 1926, address Woodlea Asylum, Lenzie
Cheers,
Rodeo
Georgina went on to marry again so that isn't her.
The other two are correct though. The recorded age of John on his death doesn't tally with 3 other records. I will search for a birth record around that time though.
Thank you
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Hi everyone
Now opening this up again as I am trying to find a birth certificate for my Gt Grandfather William Reeves, who the letter above is written to.
I believe he was born in 1875 to Elizabeth Anderson (ms Fraser or Ailwood) and John Anderson.
Can anyone please help?
Thank you in advance.
Rosie