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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Completed Lookup Requests => Topic started by: carol at tankerton towers on Monday 16 May 05 15:56 BST (UK)
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Hi, I am a newcomer to this and now have to look up my first birth in the parish records for Bethnal Green 1860, I have never done this before so not too sure what to do, do I have to come to Bethnal Green? or can I access these records on line. I and others have looked for this person in the normal birth registers to no avail.
many thanks, Carol
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Hi Carol
Assuming they were C of E, you have a number of churches to choose from to try and locate the christening/baptism:
http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/MDX/BethnalGreen/churches.htm
Enquire at the London Metropolitan Archives (or search their catalogue) for available records.
http://www.cityoflondon.gov.uk/Corporation/leisure_heritage/libraries_archives_museums_galleries/JAS/lma/lma.htm
Alternatively, you can search the LDS library catalogue http://www.familysearch.org to see which records they have filmed and order them for viewing at your nearest family history centre - see the site for locations.
Best wishes
Casalguidi
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Carol
You have set yourself a very hard task if you are going to look at Bethnal Green Parish registers. There are a lot and the problem is the person may not have been baptised in Bethnal Green itself but in the surrounding districts. or even somewhere else entirely.
What name are you looking for. Have you found them in any census? What "normal" birth registers have you checked. Are they registered under another name. Although some people do not get registered it is unusual and they are usually there somewhere.
Have you checked Freebmd or 1837online. Have you tried name variations?
If you tell us the name and what information you have someone may be able to help. I can't promise but you never know.
Sylviaann
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I am looking for a MARY ANN ELIZABETH ELGRAM, born 1860 (she was 19 at the time of her marriage, for which I have a certificate, when she married Joseph French in August 1879. Her daughters b/c states that her mothers maiden name was ELGRAM. Fathers name at her time of marriage is also listed as ELGRAM.
I have searched on the census and found an ELDEN in 1861 for that name ,I have also searched ancestry.co. and found an entry for ELDEN in Sept 1860, for a Mary Ann Elizabeth
thanks for your advice and assistance
Carol
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Hi Carol
Where did she marry? Marriage witnesses? Father's forename & occupation? Was there an address listed for her?
Have you found her on 1871 census?
I assume that 1881 and later census give her birthplace as Bethnal Green?
Best wishes
Casalguidi
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Hi, Mary ann married at St Thomas church, parish of Bethnal green on 3/8/1879. fathers name william elgram, he wa a mariner, address 24 orange street. witnesses isabella wightman and either frances/james Goodwin?
cant find them on the census until she gets married to joseph john french, but have found an Elden, full name ties up, at 10 Essex St Bethnal Green, rg9/260 st Jude, no 17, folio 61, page 33/34, mother also named as Mary ann
1901 census give birthplace at whitechapel
thanks so much for your help, am just realising how much I DON'T know,
Carol
as a newcomer to this, don't know whether to presume they are the same family?
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Hi Carol,
Welcome and don't worry we all start somewhere - your're doing fine so far ;D
Since Casalguidi isn't online at the mo, just so that others who may want to help here is the 1861 census entry I think you're referring to:
1861
10 Essex Street, Bethnal Green
Mary Ann Elden 27 Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England Wife
William Elden 22 Lambeth, Surrey, England Head
Mary A E Elden 9 months Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England Daughter
William is a Bricklayer
RG9/260
Folio: 61
Page: 34
Regards
Jonathan
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that them alright, only found them on saturday, not sure if to presume that it is her and get b/c, would I presume that she is an Elgram? but because I know she couldnt read and write would not know that her name was spelt differently/wrongly?
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Me again,
Just trying to rule in or rule out this family you spotted Carol.
This looks like the family in 1871:
2 Usher? Road, St Mary Stratford le Bow London
Elizabeth Elden 1864 Mile End, Middlesex, England Daughter
Emily Elden 1866 Mile End, Middlesex, England Daughter
Marian A Elden 1835 Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England Wife
Marian E Elden 1861 Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England Daughter
Walter M H Elden 1868 Poplar, Middlesex, England Son
William Elden 1839 Lambeth, Surrey, England Head
William G F Elden 1863 Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England Son
William is still a Bricklayer
RG10/578
Folio: 114
Page: 32
Jonathan
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Hi Carol,
It's possible that the names are misspelt as you say. But I'm a bit concerned perhaps about the father's occupation not matching - Mariner vs Bricklayer.
I'll have a look at some alternatives - hopefully others will too.
How old was Mary on her marriage certificate?
Back in a sec.
Jonathan
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Hi Jonathan,Mary was 19, i am pretty sure it does say Mariner, I have had loads of people look at it, it is extremely 'curly' writing.
the French family she married into were dock carmen
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Me again
I don't think this is the correct family Carol - which is good if we can rule them out.
In 1881 they are all still together with Mary at home.
47 Usher Rd, Bow
Elizabeth Bigmore abt 1808 Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England Mother in Law
Elizabeth Elder abt 1864 Stepney, Middlesex, England Daughter
Emily Elder abt 1866 Stepney, Middlesex, England Daughter
Mary A. Elder abt 1834 Waterloo, Surrey, England Wife
Mary A. Elder abt 1861 Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England Daughter
Walter M. Elder abt 1868 Bow, Middlesex, England Son
William Elder abt 1839 Lambeth, Surrey, England Head
Wm.G. Elder abt 1863 Waterloo, Surrey, England Son
William is a Builder.
RG11/0490
Folio: 17
Page: 28
Will go and start a different hunt - back in a sec.
Jonathan
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Hi Carol,
Been looking for a census entry for the family in 61 71 81 but without much luck :(
The Elgram name does exist though as found some - not yours too young - in 1881 born St George in the East and living there. Quite a few on free BMD all seemingly based in St George in the East.
Will keep looking ... hopefully someone else will too ;)
Jonathan
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What about this .................. ???
1881
24 Orange St, Bethnal Green
James PEGRAM/PIGRAM? head unm 42 cabinet maker b.Bethnal Green
John brother unm 38 b.Bethnal Green
Emma sister unm 26 chair.........? maker b.Bethnal Green
RG11/426 folio 49 page 56
Casalguidi
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1871
24 Orange St, Bethnal Green
James PIGRAM head unm 59 japanner b.Hertfordshire
Martha wife 57 b.Spitalfields
James son 32 cabinet maker b.Bethnal Green
John son 28 wood carver b.Bethnal Green
Emma dau 16 b.Bethnal Green
RG10/493 folio 30 page 15
So, assuming that it is the same house, this family were in residence both before and after Mary married ???
Casalguidi
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Carol, the same family (as PIGRAM) are also at the same address in 1861 but no sign of any Mary Ann E ............. ???
Could your name read PEGRAM/PIGRAM rather than ELGRAM? I am just wondering iwhether we should all now be looking for this name or stick with ELGRAM?
Casalguidi
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Hello,
Bit of a saga this one ;D
Here is 1901 just for the record ...
25 Tarling Street, St George in the East (where I was born!)
William Elgram abt 1863 St George in the East, London, England Visitor
Catherine French abt 1890 Whitechapel, London, England Daughter
Jane Eliz French abt 1886 Whitechapel, London, England Daughter
Joseph J French abt 1859 Whitechapel, London, England Head
Margaret French abt 1899 Whitechapel, London, England Daughter
Mary Ann French abt 1861 Whitechapel, London, England Wife
RG13/312
Folio: 112
Page: 28
William is definitely an Elgram on the page ??? and is a Dock Carman and is married. Joseph is a Dock Carman too.
Jonathan
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A possibility for 1871? On the page which is a bit scratchy looks like it might be Engram or Engam :-\
1871
5 Monmouth Street, Shadwell
Martha Engram 1841 Greenwich, Kent, England Head
Mary Engram 1859 Greenwich, Kent, England Daughter
Samuel Engram 1868 St George in the East, Middlesex, England Son
William Engram 1861 St George in the East, Middlesex, England Son
Francis Engram 1854 Greenwich, Kent, England Son
Difficult to tell if Martha is Married or a Widow ???
RG10/544
Folio: 80
Page: 20
All very confusing ...
Jonathan
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There are several Births deaths and marriages for Elgram on Free BMD. They are 1865 and later and mostly in St George in the East.
There are no Elgram/Engrams in bethnal Green, Whitechapel, Shoreditch or St George in the East in the 1851 indexes
For what it is worth I did find William Elden aged 12 born Surrey, parents Henry and Mary Ann.
Ref HO 107/1540 folio 273. Someone will look this up if you are still interested. If they don't after a week then ask again quoting the reference number and name.
Personally I think you should Follow the Elgram line first and try to find the father in other areas.
Actually re the jobs. One of my East Enders is down as mariner on marriage and birth certificates but on the census is a sugar baker.
Have you checked 1837online for her birth?
Sylviaann
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Me again,
This is very confusing indeed and I don't want to make things more obscure but ... ???
The Monmouth Street noted in the 1871 is right on Shadwell Docks which would make sense if the father was a Mariner.
If this is the right family, the only thing I could find in 1861 that seems likely is ... wonder if Ingram/Elgram/Engram is all used in variation?
1861
3 Duke Street, St George in the East
Francis Ingram 1854 St George, Middlesex, England Son
Martha Ingram 1837 Not Known, Middlesex, England Wife
Mary Ingram 1858 St George, Middlesex, England Daughter
William Ingram 1860 (think is says 6 weeks) St George, Middlesex, England Son
Martha is a Tailoress. Her age is very difficult to read! but she is married.
No Samuel ???
RG9/279
Folio: 62
Page: 40
This address is again right near the Shadwell Docks.
+++
There is this too ...
Birth
Mary Ann Ingram
Jun Qtr 1861
St George in the East
Vol 1c Page 456
(from FreeBMD)
Sorry this might be leading right up the garden path ... :-\
Cheers
Jonathan
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Hi, thanks so much everyone for all the info, I now have to decide whether to 'hold out' for an Elgram to appear or to go with the different spelling on the name, what does your experience tell you, i'm sure you've come across this before. I have contacted an ancient relly who may know something and will have to wait for her to reply to me. That's interesting knowing that the address 1871 is near the docks. I have this gut feeling I should stick witth the Elgram name, maybe something I can remember hearing as a child, I don't know, maybe I should be regressed!!!
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Hi Carol
We seem to have been all round the houses but I think it's best to stick with what you know.
This looks interesting:
1881
20 John Street, St George in the East
Martha ELGRAM head wid 40 b.Scotland
Samuel son 14 van boy (carman) b.St George in the East
RG11/452 folio 24 page 42
This could just kind of fit with the "ENGRAM" family that Jonathan found in 1871 at 5 Monmouth Street (posted above) - just a different birthplace for the mother ??? Possibly even the INGRAM family in 1861 at 3 Duke Street?
Lets hope you get a pointer or two from your relative.
Best wishes
Casalguidi