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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Sussex => Topic started by: mandyj51 on Tuesday 13 March 12 10:00 GMT (UK)
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Could anyone please advise me where births c.1800 - 1814, Handcross would be registered, if at all. The father of the children was non conformist and I can find all the registered births from his 2nd marriage but not these earlier ones.
Have spent years trying to find these registered births with no luck. Have subscribed to ancestry sites, bought CDs of births, marriages, deaths, purchased certificates, am a member of Sussex history group, have posted requests on here, have been to The National Archives .... :( I have looked at all the births for Slaugham covering all the immediate areas that have transcribed records.
I know the 4 people exist, and they give their place of birth as Handcross, (and sometimes Slaugham) in census records but I just cannot find any birth records for them anywhere. Their mother died c.1814 and there is no death registered for her either.
One of the c.1800 births registered his children's births at Staplefield Provident Chapel c.1833 but the chapel didn't exist c.1800.
If births for c.1800 Handcross have not yet been transcribed is there anywhere I can physically go to view the actual parish records? There must at least be a burial site somewhere for the mother c.1814? Is there a church in the area whose records haven't been transcribed?
Thank you for any help.
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IGI batch C071071 seems to have some baptisms 1800-1814, what surname were you looking for?
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Civil Registration began in 1837, so these births will not be registered anywhere.
So you will be hoping for a christennig record.
But the children in question may not have been christened. If they weren't, then there will be no record.
As the family were non- conformist, then a christening in teh C of E (parish) church is unlikely.
The Sussex Record Office may hold records of christenings in local Non conformist churches, but these may not have survived. You would need to contact the Sussex Record Office.
You do not say what non conformist church the family attended. Bear in mind that whilst some non conformist churches do practice infant baptism, many do not. In thoses, peopel choose themselves to be baptised, or not, once they are old enough to make there own decision.
So it is highly likely that the children you are seeking were not christened/baptised as babies at all, and therefore there will be no record. But well worth seeking out any non conformist records first (I have recently found some of my ancestors chr in a non conformist church!)
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Thank you for your reply and advice.
Yes, I too have found non-conformist births (1819-28) from the 2nd marriage not registered until 1837 (Dr. Williams library.) I'm not sure what religion they practised as this isn't recorded anywhere on the documents. The chapel at Staplefield used to record the later births (1833+) is just described as a 'Congregational Providence Chapel'. (Is there a hint there I'm missing?)
It could be that as the mother of the c.1800 births died c.1814 then she wasn't alive to record them in 1837, as the wife from the 2nd marriage did with her children.
I still feel there should be a grave for the mother somewhere. I have checked transcribed burial records for Handcross and surrounding areas but nothing is coming up. Does anybody know of a church in the Handcross area which is right for the burial time c. 1814 - 1818?
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Hi Hugatree :)
The surname is Whiting. I've probably looked at the IGI batch a few times myself but I may have missed something so would appreciate a fresh pair of eyes. Thankyou!
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I have had a look at the IGI Batch. There are quite a few early and later Whiten's/Whitings but none for the early 1800's. Have they been transcribed for that period?
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Hi Mandy J.
I have looked up your past correspondence on the family and wondered whether you had actually considered they may have originally been travellers or gipsys with no permanent place of residence? Handcoss and Slaugham at harvest time and plantings did seem to be a seasonal gathering place for many from that type of background, and I believe your ancestry shows your line also had ties with London areas where there were commons, and the descendents eventually found their way into horticulture of some sort.
Just a thought Roy G
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Hi Mandy
I've looked at the batch and it does cover a lot of names for that period, just not yours I'm afraid. If non-conformist then there are a few records available for Rye and Cuckfield, and the family may be have been done in one batch as it were, when they could get to the Chapel. It sounds like they were Congregationalists. Could you share your list of missing names with us please? Oh and the parents/grandparents too please.
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Hi Roy,
thankyou for your help yet again. That's an interesting thought. I did consider it once briefly but didn't look into it too much so I'll certainly have another look. The family moved from Slaugham to Horley in c.1819 when the mother died and the husband remarried, and the husband's listed in Reigate in the Land Tax records there so not sure if that fits in with the gypsy/traveller theory? The husband died between 1828 - 1937 and the 2nd wife and all the children (1st and 2nd marriage) are then located in London in dwellings from then on. I will have a look on the traveller genealogy website.
Hi hugatree,
the family are
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Hi Roy,
thankyou for your help yet again. That's an interesting thought. I did consider it once briefly but didn't look into it too much so I'll certainly have another look. The family moved from Slaugham to Horley in c.1819 when the mother died and the husband remarried, and the husband's listed in Reigate in the Land Tax records there so not sure if that fits in with the gypsy/traveller theory? The husband died between 1828 - 1937 and the 2nd wife and all the children (1st and 2nd marriage) are then located in London in dwellings from then on. I will have a look on the traveller genealogy website. Thank you.
Hi hugatree,
the family are -
WILLIAM WHITING 1801
THOMAS WHITING 1803
HANNAH WHITING 1806
MARY WHITING 1814
PARENTS - WILLIAM WHIT(E)ING and HANNAH BISHOP married 13.07.1801, Slaugham
I have lots of info. on all the children born to William Whit(e)ing - marriages, births, deaths etc. but have no idea where the 1st wife is buried or parish records for the births for the children mentioned above. Also have no info. on the parents of William Whiting or Hannah Bishop.
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Yes, I too have found non-conformist births (1819-28) from the 2nd marriage not registered until 1837
Births registered in 1837 will be babies born then (within 6 weeks), not older children.
Babies born before 1837 will not be registered as registration did not exist. When it was introduced, it is for babies born from then onwards - you couldnt register someone's birth from previous years!
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Hi mandy
I have trawled the non-conformists, but not found anything likely for Sussex and surrounding areas, sorry :(
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Thankyou anyway hugatree. It was very kind of you.
Hi lizdb,
They were non conformist births which took place between 1820-28, the certificates/records are signed by the mother only in 1837 as the father is deceased by that time.
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Good morning,
Handcross is in Slaugham parish, the church is St Marys in Slaugham. There is also Staplefied Parish church, St Marks. Both are about a mile from Handcross and both have graveyards. Both have graveyard plans of burials in the porch There is also a Catholic church in Staplefield but no graveyard, have never heard of Staplefield Provident Chapel but will ask around. In Handcross High st is the Zoar Strict Baptist Chapel, no burial ground. If I see Pastor Bradstock I will ask about records, but the baptists do keep very good central records. There used to be another non-conformist chapel on the other side of the road but now demolished and don't recall what it was, again will ask around.
John915
The next nearest parish churches would be Balcombe, Cuckfield and Lower Beeding. I don't know what non-conformist chapels there were in those villages.
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Hi John,
that's fantastic information you have provided. Thank you very much.
William and Hannah married in Slaugham in 1801. I'm assuming it was at St. Mary's. I have searched for Hannah's burial there but cannot find anything. I think St. Mark's at Staplefield was built in 1847 which is too late for Hannah as she died some time between 1814-1818. Her last child Mary was born c.1814, Slaugham so I am wondering if Hannah perhaps died in childbirth. It would make sense if she were buried at St.Mary's but I'm not finding the burial recorded on available records.
Staplefield Congregational Providence Chapel (Broad Street) was established in 1821 but is now closed and used as offices.
It is very useful for me to know there aren't burial grounds at the catholic church or the Zoar Baptist Chapel as I did wonder about both those sites so that information is much appreciated.
I will have a look for more information on the churches at Balcombe, Cuckfield and Lower Beeding.
Many thanks,
Mandy
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Good evening,
Broad st is in Cuckfield and there is an old chapel along that rd. Now out of use as a chapel and has been for many yrs, now used for other purposes so that could be the one you are after. Again I will make some enquiries. I am the local RBL standard bearer so I know the vicars very well. I can't promise to get it done this weekend as we have the 2nd grandson staying over, full time job looking after him.
John915
Two mentions of the congregational chapel later church here; http://www.cuckfield.org/page.php?pg=37
Try google maps with st view, the bus is just passing the chapel.
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Cuckfield Museum have various records from the churches in the village - there were several - so worth a visit if you can get there. Chichester Record Office will have even more stuff. The Congregational Church in Broad Street was established c1821. Picture on the Cuckfieldcompendium.co.uk site. The Baptist church have their own records so contact them direct.
I have some non conformist baptism and burial records but from the mid 1830s so too late for you. No Whiting entries. I also have access to many of the Holy Trinity, Cuckfield register entries and some early Slaugham ones - pre 1780.
In case you don't have them the witnesses at the marriage in 1801 were James Brown and Lydia Bishop.
As you have done detailed searches you have no doubt searched the film of the Slaugham registers. If not, you can do so at your nearest LDS family history centre. Even if the IGI is supposed to cover it they do miss things. Cuckfield, for instance, only has the female baptisms on the IGI for some years - the males are not there.
Andrea
PS Don't forget the onlineparishclerk site Cuckfield has one so other Sussex places may have too. http://www.sussex-opc.org
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Thank you for the additional information and kind offer John. I look forward to hearing from you again at your earliest convenience.
Hi Sillgen,
thank you for the suggestions. I hope to visit Cuckfield and Chichester once I have passed my driving test; not too long to go I hope. I did request a look up as I'm a member of the Sussex History Club but never heard back and that was months ago. I guess they had as much luck as me!
I have checked all the records you mention. I did know about James Brown and Lydia Bishop (thank you anyway). I thought I might be able to get somewhere with them and perhaps tie in with Hannah and William that way but had no luck; not surprising given the surname!
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Your Non Conformist births may be a bit late for this but Cuckfield and Bolney (just outside Handcross) were once centres for Quakerism. Quaker records for the area were kept across the border in Capel, Surrey, but I think they were also like some other NC religions, and did not perform baptisms either. Roy G
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Hi Roy,
thanks for the post. I get so confused by all the different non conformist ways of registering/not registering births. Someone said in an earlier post that births had to be registered within 6 weeks, but I know that some of the Whiting births weren't recorded until 1837, some 9-18 years after the actual births. I think I'm right in thinking that many Non Conformist births weren't recorded until years later at the Dissenters library (Dr. Williams library?) and were registered just to provide evidence of the birth/ the individual's existence, just as we use our birth certificates for ID now. I know this was done by William's 2nd wife after his death, which could explain why there are no records at the dissenters library for the births of William's children from his first marriage to Hannah as she had died by 1819. (Was it more the mother's 'job' to visit the Dissenters Library?) As I cannot find any records in any transcribed registers other than in the Dissenters register for any of the births this suggests that maybe none of the births were recorded at the time? Or the registers they were recorded in simply weren't handed in despite the 1840 Non-Parochial Registers Act?
William's son by William and Hannah - also called William - registered his children's birth in a congregational chapel, so as hugatree suggested earlier, I think William Snr was most likely a congregationalist. As the chapel wasn't there when William's children with Hannah were born that could explain why I am not finding the births recorded. I think I now need to work along the lines of William being a congregationalist and look more into that. I'll try and locate the nearest congregationalist place of worship to Slaugham at that time to see if I can come up with anything. It's a new avenue to explore.
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Hi Mandy
You need to avoid the use of the word "registered" to describe church entries. That may be what is confusing us all - and you! We all tend to assume that registering births only happened after civil registration started in 1837 ie those entries held at the General Record Office with certificates issued as we have today. Prior to that date only baptisms in a church give a record of a child. Some non conformist churches do not do infant baptism - people are baptised as adults which is what seems to have happened in your case.
Andrea
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Hi Andrea,
sorry. I don't mean to confuse anyone. I am still getting used to the terminology. Henceforth the word will not pass my lips again!
Kind regards,
Mandy
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Good girl!! When I am next in Cuckfield Museum I will see what they have that might help. I think Chichester will be a better bet for a visit though as they will have all the records - not just Cuckfield ones.
Andrea
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I know it is confusing, many of my family were Baptists. You would think with a name like that, Baptists at least would baptise their kids at birth. But no, most (except those who were sickly and thought to be unlikely to survive) were not baptised until they were in their teens or almost adults. Roy G
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It is because it is not a case of "baptising their kids.."
Baptism in a Baptist Church takes place at the request of the person being baptised, therefore does not take place until someone is old enough to make their own decision about their own beliefs. It is often referred to as 'believer's baptism' - because someone chooses to be baptised because they have chosen to believe. it is not something done to them based on someone else's belief or tradition.
To family historians and genealogists this is a pain, I know, as we associate infant baptism as a useful record of a birth, or as near as we can get to it, and rely on the vicars' records for our sources. These records were probably never intended for use in this way at the time! But they are invaluable to our reseach now.
But certainly when someone is baptised as a believer in a Baptist Church, the event has absolutely no connection with their birth, and we, the family history rersearchers, should not make the mistake of thinking that it is or should be.
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Good evening,
A little more for you,
1. I was wrong, the Zoar Baptist chapel does have some burials although I don't recall ever seeing any headstones. They are probably all fairly old so will ask Paster Bradstock if I see him.
2. The chapel that used to stand opposite was Wesleyan.
3. There was also at one time another place of worship beside the Baptist Chapel, Plymouth Bretheren.
4. The Roman Catholic Church in Staplefield may have been a chapel of some description before it became RC, will look into that one.
5. I incorrectly described the two parish churches as having graveyards, they don't. They have churchyards, apparently there is a legal difference all to do with ownership. Graveyards are public burial grounds not necessarily with a place of worship attached. This I found out when enquiring as to where non-conformists would normally be buried particularly at the time we are looking at.
So we may be looking at a possibility of the burials being some distance from Handcross at a public burial ground which was open at that time.
These days that usually means Worth crematorium.
John915
PS. Further to lizdb, in many Baptist chapels it means you have to become a member of the church, non-members may still attend services but can't take communion. You also have to be an adult usually over 16, and you have to stand and make a declaration of devotion to be accepted. OH is a Baptist and has been through all this.
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The cemetery at Cuckfield is actually a public one - albeit perceived by many as the church graveyard. The burial registers from 1855 onwards have been put online by the parish council who run it. There is a link from their website.
I am getting confused as to what dates we are looking for but the deaths may show up in Cuckfield.
Andrea
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Thank you for all the posts and offers of help. I am learning more with each one. (Especially to watch my language!) I look forward to any future developments. Thank you everyone.
Dare I ask one more question? William Snr may possibly have been buried at Christ Church, Southwark. (Sorry, I do realise this is the Sussex board.) I have been advised that his body was probably removed due to overcrowding so the grave no longer exists. Does anybody have any idea what happened to bodies removed in these circumstances?
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Hi Andrea,
the death took place some time between 1814 - 1819. (Hannah Whiting nee Bishop.)
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Good evening,
Bodies are not usually exhumed and reburied unless the ground is being deconsecrated for some reason. This happens when churches are sold for developement but only if there are no living relatives for any of the occupants. Thats not to say it could'nt have happened in earlier times for whatever reason. The burial in Southwark would fit with the move to London after Hannahs death. When some of the London cemetarys became full large overflow cemetarys were created outside of London. Brookwood in Surrey was one of these originally, it even had it's own branch line and station to take the coffins right there ready for burial.
Had hoped to get to one of the churches tonight but did'nt finish work until 6-30 and have to collect OH from work at 7 on Tuesdays.
John915
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Hi John,
The burial ground was re-landscaped as a public garden in 1900 so if William is still there I doubt I'll be able to locate him. His final resting place may now be marked by a public bin. I'm hoping the church at least retained the grave stones. (I read that they may be propped up against the railings.) I was born and raised in London and I can remember more than enough open spaces without this needing to be done. I'm not for it at all.
It would be great to locate Hannah's final resting place. It would also hopefully provide us with a year of birth for her as we are itching to try and go further back with the family tree. Not sure what OH means? Your help is very much appreciated at your earliest convenience. Thank you John.
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Good evening,
Other Half, the good wife, you will see many abreviations used on roots chat. Some are easy some are not.
John915
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Good morning Mandy,
Sorry not to have been about much this week but very busy at work as it's been hot. Went to the baptist chapel last Sunday and spoke to a couple of people. They dont have a complete record of everyone who is buried there. Most of the graves from the 1800s are unreadable now, there were some that had wooden markers often known as bedhead memorials as that is what they resemble. Unfortunatley they have rotted away completely and there are also many which never had markers of any sort.
They are doing a little research for me though. Also the Catholic church in Staplefield was previously a Baptist chapel as well and may have some burials around the back but only a very small plot. It is believed to have been something else before that but don't know what as yet. Will try to find out as there was reference to the Congregational chapel in Staplefield.
Iv'e lived here for 30 yrs and found out more over the past couple of weeks than I have in all that time.
John915