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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: eregli_gene on Sunday 11 March 12 10:37 GMT (UK)
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I am interested in Alfred Cluney
Alfred Cluney was supposedly born around 1831 in London, England,
having died in Sydney in 1873 aged about 42. He had a father
and brother, both called Francis. There is no obvious record
of him visible in the 1841 or 1851 English census.
It is my opinion that the following newspaper references in
Australia and New Zealand between 1857 and 1874 all refer
to the same individual.
From the "South Australian Register", Thursday, 22 October 1857 :
"Port Adelaide: Wednesday, October 21.
[before Mr R.F. Newland.]
Cluney v. Harper
Allen Harper, master of the Burra Burra, appeared to a summons by
Alfred Cluney, cook, for 14 pounds 8s. wages due.
The defendant pleaded the drunkenness and inattention of plaintiff,
and his having damaged certain steam-pipes connected with the vessel's
galley. Plaintiff whilst in port had several times refused to cook the
dinner for the crew, and had taken articles belonging to the ship.
By Mr Beykett - Plaintiff has been 10 trips in the vessel, at the
rate of 6 pounds a month. He suited me until the matter occured of
which I complain. Had about 60 persons on board last time, but
plaintiff had a soldier and another person to assist him.
A. Vincent, steward, deposed that plaintiff had been drunk on
several occaisions which incapacitated him from doing his duty.
A steam-pipe is missing from the galley, which it would cost one
pound to replace.
Jedgment for 8 pounds 10s. wages and costs, plaintiff having
received on account 4 pounds 10s. and one pound deducted for damage
done, with 8 shillings forfeiture for incapacity to perform his
duty through drunkenness.
From the "South Australian Register", Saturday, 24 November 1860 :
"Port Adelaide: Friday, November 23
[before Mr G.W Hawkes SM]
Disorderlies.- Alfred Cluney was fined 10s. for being drunk and using
obscene language - James Stewart seaman, was charged with being drunk
and disturbing the peace; also with assaulting Police-constrable Stewart
in the execution of his duty. He as fined 10s.
An account appears in the Brisbane Courier of 29 February, 1864.
This account or almost identical ones also appears in
multiple New Zealand newspapers of the same month.
An Otago paper of the 19th of this month, the latest received, says:-
Alfred Cluney, chief cook of the Queen, steamer, was last evening
released from custody. It will be remembered that he was arrested
on suspicion of being concerned in the death of John Craig, late
chief engineer of the boat, and that the resident magistrate
remanded him, pending the verdict of the coroner's jury. He was
present during the inquest on Saturday, and again yesterday, and
at the request of the jury the coroner accepted his own
reconissances for his appearance before the resident magistrate
this forenoon, when he will, no doubt, be formally discharged.
At the sitting yesterday captains Francis and Davidson gave evidence
which showed that if poor Craig was murdered, robbery was not the
inciting cause. It was suspicious that Craig having received
34 points on the Saturday preceding the Monday when his body was
found, only 4 pounds 10s. remained in his purse, and that a watch,
which he was known to possess, was not in his pocked. Captain
Francis proved that a silver watch and 17 pounds in notes was left
in the deceased's berth ; while Davidson stated that the watch
was the only one he had known Craig to possess, and that the
deceased told him on Saturday night that he had length 10 pounds
to a friend. But the verdict of the jury was an open one - that
the deceased died from fractures of the skull, there being no
evidence to show how those fractures were caused. The coroner
told Cluney that, so far as the court was concerned, he left it
without the slightest stain, and we have no doubt that the
magistrate will, today, show that he believes what Cluney said
when first brought up, 'You'll find me innocent, sir'.
Craig's body was found in the bay on the first of February.
Alfred Cluney died in Sydney around 13 December 1873. His funeral was
held in Sydney two days later on Monday 15 December 1873.
A death announcment for Alfred Cluney appeared in the
Sydney Morning Herald on Saturday 13 December 1873:
Cluney - December 13, at his late residence, 711 George-street,
Sydney, after a short and painful illness, Alfred Blackley Cluney,
native of London, in the 42nd year of his age, and dearly beloved
son of the late Francis Cluney, Excise Officer of London, and brother
of Francis Cluney, band-master, leaving an affectionate wife and
large circle of friends to mourn their loss.
Another death notice appeared on Saturday 21st February 1874 in the
Sydney Morning Herald ( 2 months after his funeral ):
Cluney - Dec 13, 1873, Alfred Blackley CLuney, native of London,
aged 42.
His funeral was announced in 4 separate funeral notices
in the Sydney Morning Herald of Monday 15 December 1873.
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Hi
It looks a wife was Margaret McFall (daughter of Daniel McFall) and they married at Port Adelaide, SA, on 13 May 1857. It confirms his father as Francis Cluney
There looks like a lot of records for him on ships manifests as well. Will post them in a second (dates are arrival dates).
5 December 1864 on board the "Kangaroo" between Hobart & Sydney (as a Cook)
12 May 1869 on board the "Black Swan" between Maryborough & Sydney (as Chief Cook)
26 May 1869 on board the "Black Swan" between Maryborough & Sydney (as Chief Cook)
26 August 1869 on board the "Havilah" between Rockhampton & Sydney (as Cook)
15 September 1869 on board the "Havilah" between Rockhampton & Sydney (as a Steward)
11 October 1869 on board the "Havilah" between Rockhampton & Sydney (as a Cook) (confirms birthplace as London)
28 October 1869 on board the "Havilah" between Rockhampton & Sydney (as a Cook)
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Hi
London birth and baptisms
Alfred Blakely son of Francis and Margaret Clooney was baptised 29 Apr 1827 in the parish of St George, Middlesex, fathers occupation revenue officer, familys address Old Gravel Lane, Alfreds birth given as 15 Dec 1826.
Kevin
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It appears that he married in Sydney, 1869, Elizabeth Dalzell. NSW Marriage Reg 217/1869
The funeral notices say that his father-in-law was John Dazell (sic) and his brothers-in-law
were Messrs Thomas, John, James and Robert Dazell (sic)
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Brother Francis christened at St Dunstan and All Saints, Stepney on 31 May 1829. Father's occupation given as Excise officer.
No other obvious siblings nor on the census so far
I wonder as well if Francis Jnr went to Australia as well - there is a death on 21 June 1887 in Adelaide of a Francis Cluney, aged 59 which would take us back to him being born around 1828/29
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FreeBMD has a Francis Cluney deceased Lambeth 1920 but he was supposedly aged 73 which is about 20 years too young.
I can't find any death or remarriage for Alfred's apparent second wife Elizabeth Dalzell in NSW. There may be a spelling variation that I missed. Her four brothers seem to have had a few children in NSW.
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I've drawn a blank on the census' no matter how many different spellings of Cluney I can come up with - wonder if the whole family went out to Australia before 1841?
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Well there is a ship captain John Dalziel sailing to and fro at that time.
Is Dalziel the same as Dalzell ?
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http://messenger-news.whereilive.com.au/news/story/ghostly-goings-on-at-adelaide-arcade/
Francis Cluney is apparently a ghost in Adelaide.
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possible?
828/1882 Elizabeth CLUNY m. Joseph H J W HILL Sydney
2522/1883 birth Annie A HILL parents Joseph H T W and Elizabeth Sydney
4087/1902 death Elizabeth HILL parents John and Charlotte Sydney
Children b. to John DALZELL and Charlotte include Elizabeth (1869), John, James, Robert and Thomas BDM NSW
SMH 13 May 1882 marriage of Joseph H T W HILL, of Dartmouth, Devon, and Elizabeth CLUNY of Sydney at St Barnabas'
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Don't know how I missed that 1883 marriage, I thought I checked through all the Clooney spelling variations for 30 years. That is probably her. Since she would have been well over 30 at the time of that second marriage, I would not expect many children. There do not seem to have been any children of her marriage to Alfred Cluney. ( no doubt someone will find one within ten minutes ).
There are births for Cluny(one) and Cluney(about 7) between 1868 and 1878 but none for Alfred and Elizabeth. And curiously, no Clooney births in NSW between 1868 and 1878 which I find hard to believe as that is by far the most common spelling.
Most of the other Dalzell's children in the 1870's would appear to be the children of her four brothers ( Alfred Cluney's brothers-in-law, all named in the 1873 funeral announcement ).
""The friends of Messrs Thomas, John, James and Robert Dazell (sic)
are invited to attend the Funeral of their late deceased Brother-in-Law,
Mr Alfred Cluney, to move from his late residence, No. 711, George-street
This(Monday) Afternoon at quarter to 3 o'clock, for Necropolis
J and G Shying."
Their father was also called John.
I will order some transscriptions of their certificates, to find out where they came from. The one who drowned at Long Reef was a Shetland Islander.
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Another curiousity is that the 1873 apparent death registration for Alfred Cluney has a very low index number which you would not normally expect to see for a death in December, and it says his father's name was Richard.
He supposedly died on the 13th december yet a quite detailed death notice appears in the Herald of the same date and says his father's name was Francis. I suppose with dodgy handwriting it is posisble to make Francis look like Richard, or vice versa.
And then there are two more death notices in the same newspaper 9 and 10 weeks later - for what purpose is not obvious.
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Hi, My husbands grandmother was Mary Jane Dalzell,sister of Elizabeth Dalzell married to Arthur Cluney. We don't know anything re Aerthur & Elizabeth. I have had question from Ancestry com asking if I know about Arthur in NZ, being tried and cleared of a murder charge. Can you help with any information re this??
I found that Elizabeth remarried a Joseph Hill in1882 then she died in1902.
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It's kind of weird there would be a comment on this 18-month-old thread the day after I was looking at it.
Alfred was not really tried on a murder charge. The suspicion that he was involved was rejected at the first hearing before a magistrate. I don't think it was even what we would call now a committal hearing.
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/60578148
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/60581367
http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&cl=search&d=ODT18640205.2.18&srpos=9&e=-------10--1----2alfred+cluney--
There are numerous other slightly different versions of this.
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Brother Francis christened at St Dunstan and All Saints, Stepney on 31 May 1829. Father's occupation given as Excise officer.
No other obvious siblings nor on the census so far
I wonder as well if Francis Jnr went to Australia as well - there is a death on 21 June 1887 in Adelaide of a Francis Cluney, aged 59 which would take us back to him being born around 1828/29
There is apparently a Henry Cluney (c.1819-1881), who's father was apparently a Francis Cluney, and also had a son called Francis, and also had a daughter called Harriet, which is a name that Alfred Cluney(1826-1873) and Francis Cluney(1828-1887) gave to their first daughters.
I am suspecting that this Henry Cluney is a brother of Alfred and Francis, and son of Francis who was married in 1815, it would be surprising if he had no other children until 1826.
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There is apparently a Henry Cluney (c.1819-1881), who's father was apparently a Francis Cluney, and also had a son called Francis, and also had a daughter called Harriet, which is a name that Alfred Cluney(1826-1873) and Francis Cluney(1828-1887) gave to their first daughters.
I am suspecting that this Henry Cluney is a brother of Alfred and Francis, and son of Francis who was married in 1815, it would be surprising if he had no other children until 1826.
Sources, references?
Is there a chatter with multiple usernames on this thread?
Cando
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I have just checked, and the Original Poster ( eregli_gene ) has not been online since
25 May 2012, 23:12:14
So I am confused by michinyon's post : It's kind of weird there would be a comment on this 18-month-old thread the day after I was looking at it.
and by kennett's post commenting about Ruth's post....
And no one was on hand to welcome the newbie bribuck, who has only posted just the once, (the day after joining RChat,) but has been online even today ( Today at 15:28:14 ).
Perhaps the Chatterbox forum is helping out with info for this request. If not, then it does make me wonder if there's one person talking to one or more versions of themselves perhaps, and that in turn does confuse me.
I know that old saying about curiosity, but of course, my usual response in the real world is "but, satisfaction brought it back" and I am as curious as Alice (’Curiouser and curiouser!’ Cried Alice)
Cheers, JM
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There is apparently a Henry Cluney (c.1819-1881), who's father was apparently a Francis Cluney, and also had a son called Francis, and also had a daughter called Harriet, which is a name that Alfred Cluney(1826-1873) and Francis Cluney(1828-1887) gave to their first daughters.
I am suspecting that this Henry Cluney is a brother of Alfred and Francis, and son of Francis who was married in 1815, it would be surprising if he had no other children until 1826.
My sister, who ( surprise ! surprise ! ), has similar research interests to me, but goes about things in a different way, is known to post on this forum. Her activities depend very much on her workload.
Sources, references?
Is there a chatter with multiple usernames on this thread?
Cando
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There is apparently a Henry Cluney (c.1819-1881), who's father was apparently a Francis Cluney, and also had a son called Francis, and also had a daughter called Harriet, which is a name that Alfred Cluney(1826-1873) and Francis Cluney(1828-1887) gave to their first daughters.
I am suspecting that this Henry Cluney is a brother of Alfred and Francis, and son of Francis who was married in 1815, it would be surprising if he had no other children until 1826.
Sources, references
I am not sure who you think you are, to be petulantly demanding sources and references for every speculative remark, hypothesis or suggestion, but on this occasion I will indulge your arrogance.
Henry Cluney appears in the 1851 UK census, aged 33, born Lancashire. He appears again in the 1871 UK census, aged 52, born Liverpool Lancashire. He was married on 4 June 1851 to Louisa Matthews, daughter of James Matthews, at All Saints, Lambeth, London. Henry's father's name is recorded as Francis Cluney. Source LDS Familysearch index. Henry's wife Louisa appears in the 1871 census, aged 53, born Churchfield Sussex. Churchfield is near Hastings. Henry and Louisa appear to have had three children.. Louisa Margaret Cluney ( 1852-1854 ), Louisa Sophia Cluney (b. 1856, appears in 1871 census aged 15 ) and Henry James Cluney ( 1854-1855 ). It would appear based on the location of these events, that they moved to Brighton, and later back to Lambeth in London again.
Henry and his family live consistently in Lambeth, London for more than 50 years.
A person going by the username of Maggie Kyte has posted a tree on the internet concerning this family. I note that a great-granddaughter of Henry Cluney married a man called Kyte in the 1920's, so I conjecture this woman is a direct descendant of this family. I sent her an email last week, I haven't had any response as yet. All of the details she has published about this family seem to be plausible, potentially verifiable and consistent. Based on what this Maggie Kyte has published, she seems like neither an idiot nor a fantasist. She even has photos of the more recent ones, presumably her own grandparents or great-grandparents.
Henry Cluney appears to have been married before Louisa Matthews. The 1851 census suggests he had at least three children before his marriage to her, with children Harriet, Francis and George aged 9 4 and 2. Maggie Kyte has posted a copy of the birth certificate of Francis Cluney (b.1847) online, which appears to state that his mother is Mary Cluney formerly Dixon. Neither Maggie Kyte nor myself can observe the apparent marriage of this Henry Cluney to Mary Dixon. Nor is the death of Henry Cluney's supposed first wife, Mary, apparent in the 1849-1851 time frame when she would have apparently died. This is an acknowledged lacuna in this hypothesis. Given the propensity of these Cluneys to visit Ireland, maybe he married there ?
Louisa Cluney died in 1875, aged 57, at Lambeth, and Henry apparently had a third marriage in 1875. Henry Cluney died in 1881, aged 62.
The LDS sources reveal a man called Francis Cluney was married to a woman called Margaret Horne at the Holy Trinity Church, Liverpool, Lancashire, England on 1 May 1815. The LDS sources record the baptism of 6 or 7 children for this couple, some of them recorded many times, and some of them under the name of Clooney and some as Cluney. These are Harriet Cluney, baptised 12 May 1816 at St Peters, Liverpool, Richard Henry Cluney bapt St Peters Liverpool 1818, Alfred Cluney bapt 15 Oct 1820 at St Peters Liverpool, Francis bapt 18 Sept 1822 at St Peters Liverpool, Alfred Blackly Cluney bapt 29 April 1827 at St George London, and Francis Frederick Cluney bapt 31 May 1829 St Dunstan Stepney London. Alfred born 1827 and Francis born 1829 were both in the military and both of them died in Australia. Both of them claimed to be the sons of Francis Cluney, an excise official, a very uncommon name ( except for four generations of this family ).
There are two Alfreds and Francis in this list. There are several scenarios which would have to be considered. (1) The first Alfred and Francis died (2) They were baptised twice (quite common) (3) They are completely different families and not connected. (2) is plausible, except that the military and australian records have ages which appear to confirm the birth dates of 1827 and 1829. That leaves (1) or (3).
Henry Cluney, who claimed when he married in 1851 that his father's name was Francis Cluney, and claimed in the 1851 and 1871 censuses that he was born in Liverpool, Lancashire , and gave ages corresponding to having been born in about 1819, may, or may not, be the Richard Henry Cluney baptised at Liverpool in 1818 with parents Francis and Margaret Cluney. Or possibly this Richard died and Henry was born the following year.
A Francis Cluney, who lived at Mile End Old Town, died in 1830. A Margaret Cluney aged 74 died in 1869, a plausible candidate for the Margeret Horne married in 1815 to Francis Cluney.
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part 2: message divided because it exceeds 5000 character limit.
Francis Cluney born in 1847 died in 1920, he married a woman called Julia Casey, and he had one son, Henry Maurice Cluney born about 1885. Francis Cluney is recorded as an employee in a clothing factory. Francis, Julia and Henry Maurice appear in the 1901 and 1911 census. Henry Maurice Cluney married Louisa Lillian Gray in 1905 and they had at least 5 children between 1905 and 1911 , who appear in the 1911 census, one of their children was the fourth Francis Cluney, born in 1906.
Francis Frederick Cluney born 1829 was in the Crimean War. His medals were auctioned in London, last year. He then lived in London, in Ireland, at Cork and Wales before moving to Adelaide in 1882, where he died in 1887 in spectacular fashion. Francis born 1847 also lived at Cork, where his son Henry Maurice was born ( as claimed in the 1901 and 1911 census as Henry Maurice's birthplace ).
The first identifiable child of Henry, of Alfred and of Francis was called Harriet, in each case, which is curious.
There is only one other family of Cluneys in the south east of england. A John Cluney married a Martha Harrison, from Queensborough Kent, and their children and grandchildren are speculatively identifiable in the BDM records and the census records. They appear to account for all the other Cluneys that occur in SE England. It is not a common name, although confounded by the alternative spelling Clooney. I am not speculating on any link between this family of John Cluney and the descendants of Francis Cluney, I only remark that these two families appear to account for all identifiable Cluney BDM and census entries in SE England.
The key elements of my speculative analysis of this family are, that the family of Henry Cluney (1819-1881), whose father was allegedly Francis ( as claimed to the clergyman at his 1851 marriage ), and the brothers Alfred and Francis Cluney ( born 1827 and 1829 ), who parents were Francis Cluney, the tax official, and his wife Margaret, are the same. And futhermore, that the Francis and Margaret Cluney who lived in London in the 1820's, are the same ones who married and had children at Liverpool after 1815.
The records of registrars, marriage celebrants and census takers are only as good as what people tell them. If someone shows up at the church to be married, and says their father's name was Francis, but he is dead, and therefore not going to show up to the wedding, then who is going to argue with them ?
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Quote from KENNETT. Yesterday at 18.52.
"There is apparently a Henry Cluney (c.1819-1881), who's father was apparently a Francis Cluney, and also had a son called Francis, and also had a daughter called Harriet, which is a name that Alfred Cluney(1826-1873) and Francis Cluney(1828-1887) gave to their first daughters."
Ah I don't believe the above is actually either a speculative remark, hypothesis or suggestion, but instead, a statement of FACT.
In which case on this forum it is usual to supply a source for the information!!
Neil
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Ah I don't believe the above is actually either a speculative remark, hypothesis or suggestion, but instead, a statement of FACT.
In which case on this forum it is usual to supply a source for the information!!
Neil
May I please support Neil's comment. By asking for a source for the information, no one in this forum is ever actually attempting to undermine the information, but simply being sensible researchers, and asking for the source so that the OP has the source to in turn validate that information for themselves.
So with a recognised independent source, we can then help the OP turn factoid into relevant fact. Surely that ought to be the aim for any family history buff.
Cheers, JM
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Alfred Cluney Married my gg Aunt Elizabeth Dalzell ,
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Hi there,
Welcome to RootsChat, a great place for help with your family history.
The RChatter who started this thread has not been back on RChat since May 2012. I am not a family member, but I have a long standing interest in family history, particularly when it involves NSW in the 19th Century. May I please encourage you to ask for further information about your g g Aunt, Elizabeth Dalzell, if you want us to look up from our own resources if you have any ‘blanks’ in your own research.
You will find we are a friendly lot here, as I am sure the regulars will be along shortly to also welcome you.
Most likely once we know what information you want us to look up about your gg Aunt, we may well ask our Moderator to consider popping your enquiries on a new thread, so that we don’t get too confuddled with the earlier info about these Alfred Cluney chaps.
In the meantime, ask away !
Again, Welcome,
Cheers, JM
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Hullo Lisa, Welcome to Rootschat, hopefully the original poster will get the message and you two can compare notes.
Neil