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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Denbighshire => Topic started by: irene33 on Thursday 08 March 12 09:14 GMT (UK)
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Hi Everybody,
I have a John Jones Jnr and Snr from Chirk that I have been researching for a while.
I now believe John Jones Snr (born about 1845) married Catherine Phillips. Catherine Phillips I believe is the daughter of Jane Phillips. Yeah those Phillips (Jane & Martha) - all I know is they had lots of children and no husbands (until Martha married anyway).
Today I received Catherine's birth cert. (1846), naming her mother but no father (no surprise there).
I also received the marriage cert. for Catherine Phillips and John Jones (Wrexham 1866). Both named their father's which was a surprise. I didn't know that John was also illegitimate and Catherine actually named someone. However, I also thought (a) picked names because they had to fill in the box OR (b) they named their real father's.
Next question is John Jones (born about 1845) and all of the census records I have been able to track down he stated he was from Chirk. Problem is there a approximately 39 John Jones born in Oswestry between 1844 and 1846. Any ideas, I would like to find out who his mother is and order his birth certificate ???
I would at least like to find out who his mother was.
Any help would be appreciated
Irene
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Hi Irene
Is the John Jones connected to this family:
Hi there,
My John Edward Jones was in district of Weston Rynn, Salop during the 1901 census with his wife and 3 children.
On the 1911 census he is living in Durham.
I was just going over the places his children were born most were born in Durham, however, one was born in Chirk Green also she was listed as age 9 in 1911 her name was Mary Kathleen. There was another child born in Pendlebury, Lancs (spelling may not be correct.
On the 1911 census he is 37 years of age his wife is 36 and they have been married 17 years.
So his birth year was probably 1873 or 74. His wife was born 1875.
My father seemed to think he (John Edward) had relatives in Lancs.
Will this bit of information get us closer?
::)
If so, the whole thread is relevant:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,395115.0.html
gnu
Added - please note that Irene has added all of the text to her first posting since I posted - her line had gone down so none of the info was up apart from the subject line and a 'Hi Everybody'. The info that I found was discovered without ref to this so it's good to see that the families matched!
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Hi gnu,
Yes it is connected, however, I am more interested in his father John Jones that married Catherine Phillips.
Sorry I lost you there for a moment, the wifi went.
thanks
irene
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Hi
I thought that as that's where you left off last time.
I've had a look at possible marriages in the broad area before 1873 ~
There are two possible marriages with a Catherine Phillips and a John Jones on the same index page
June q, 1860, Oswestry v 6a 1295 (as Phillips)
Sept q, 1866 Wrexham v 11b 415 (duplicate entries under Philipps and Phillips)
Note that they are only possibles.
Do you have anything more on John Jones than last time?
gnu
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From my Ruabon registers, the best bet would be one that took place in Ruabon 13 August 1866 ~
John Jones, 22, (collier) and Catherine Phillips, 20, both of Cefn Mawr
Fathers - William Moody and William Davies ??
This would be the second one in my previous list - Wrexham v 11 p 415
Please note that these are only possibles.
gnu
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Unfortunately, I can't find a suitable couple on the 1871 at the moment. I've tried the Denbighsire and Shropshire areas. I have to be away now but will look again when I get back, unless someone else has found them.
gnu
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Hi Gnu,
The marriage cert I received today is for John Jones 22, (collier) and Catherine Phillips, 20 both of Cefn Mawr.
Fathers as you named.
This is my John E. Jones parents. Catherine Phillips died in 1874.
What I am now trying to determine is who the parent are of John Jones (born about 1844).
irene
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Hi Gnu,
I have been going through census records for Chirk and area between 1851 and 1871.
In 1871 I found John Jones and Kate Jones in Ifton Rhyn. Then I searched for John before 1871 and came up with a possibility of a 1851 Oswestry census of Knockin
Piece 2784, folio 75, Page# 1
Household Members:
Samuel Jones 69
Mary Jones 66
William Jones 22 (son) - Collier
John Jones 5 (grandson)
I don't think William is the father of the children John and wondered if any records would show any other children for Samuel and Mary.
irene
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Just wondering if this is them in 1871:
Coed yr allt, Ifton Rhyn, St Martins
RG10/2784/74/1
Jane Phillips, hd, unm, 46, b. Chirk
Edward Phillips, son, unm, 20, coal miner, b. -do-
John Jones, lodger, m, 27, -do-, -do-
Kate Jones, wife, m, 25, b. Chirk
Next door are a family of Moodys, which includes a Frederick who late married into my family.
I see you've found the Kate one.
gnu
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My records show that John Jones's father was William Moody - ties in with the Ifton families. Coed yr allt is very near the Forge, Chirk, if I recall correctly.
Will have another mosey around.
The Moodys were an Ifton, St Martins/Chirk family
gnu
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The Moodys who were next door in 1871:
Coed yr allt, Ifton Rhyn, St Martins
RG10/2784/74/1
Elizabeth Moody, wid, 82, b. St Martins
Frederick, son, widr, 41, coal miner, b. -do-
Frederick, grdson, unm, 18, -do-, b. Chirk
Samuel Moody, grdson, 12, -do-, -do-
gnu
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The Moodys in 1841:
Coed yr allt, Ifton Rhyn, St Martins
HO107/916/3/32/10
John Moody, 45, coal miner
Elizabeth , 50
John, 20, coal miner
Mary, 20
William, 18, coal miner
Frederic, 12
/
Richard Jones, 20, ag lab
//
All born county
gnu
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This is the William Moody from the 1841:
1861
Halton, Chirk (Halton is on the Pentre side of Chirk)
RG9/1880/98/11
William Moody, 37, coal miner, b. St Martins
Elizabeth, w, 38, b. Chirk - forgot to put her age in when I first posted
Mary, d, 10, b. St Martins
William, s, 8, b. Chirk
Frederick, s, 6, b. St Martins
Samuel, s, 1, b. Chirk
These last two were with the Coed yr allt family in 1871
Will check my Chirk records for this family but nothing showing for a John Jones bpt circa 1844.
gnu
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1851
Glynmorlas, St Martins
HO107/1993/718/11
William Moody. 27, coal labourer, b. St Martins
Elizabeth, w, 25, b. Chirk
Margaret, d, 2, b. -do-
Mary, d, 5 mths, b. St Martins
George Wallis, lodger, 15, coal labourer, b. Brentford. Essex
Interesting - from my Ruabon records
Marriage - Dec 25 1848
William Moody, collier, and Elizabeth Jones. Both of Cefn mawr and 'of full age'
Parents - John Moody and Samuel Jones
gnu
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Just checked your 1851 ref - it's not Knockin it's Pentre, Chirk. I think, maybe, you were looking at a few families and mixed up the refs. Here it is:
Pentre, Chirk
HO107/1993/789/6
Samuel Jones, 69, coal miners labourer
Mary, wife, 66, labourers wife
William, son, unm, forgeman (pudler)
John Jones, grdson, 5
All born Chirk
So it looks as if the Elizabeth Jones who married William Moody was the daughter of Samuel and Mary Jones and the likely mother of John Jones.
gnu
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Not sure if you've got this but it fits with Catherine/Kate's death and the ages seem correct. John sees to have re-married. Birthplaces for the sons are wrong but this happens!
1891
RG12/4072/19/32
719 Tottenham, Coundon, Auckland, Co. Durham
John Jones, 45, coal miner, b. Chirk
Mary, w, 38, b. Wales
John Ed, s, unm, 18, b. Lancashire
Samuel, s, 14, b. Lancashire
William, s, 8, b. Co. Durham
Nicholson, s, 1, b. Co. Durham
Next door (717 and 718) are Phillips and Moody families, b. Chirk and North Wales
gnu
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Hi Gnu,
I see you have been very busy. Yes you are correct on all you searches, I have found the same. Except maybe
The Moodys who were next door in 1871:
Coed yr allt, Ifton Rhyn, St Martins
RG10/2784/74/1
Elizabeth Moody, wid, 82, b. St Martins
Frederick, son, widr, 41, coal miner, b. -do-
Frederick, grdson, unm, 18, -do-, b. Chirk
Samuel Moody, grdson, 12, -do-, -do
I think Frederick (grandson) is Frederick (widower's son). Samuel is probably William Moody's son because by 1871 William and his new wife (Martha) are in Ince Lancs. RG10/3892/70/16
irene
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This is the William Moody from the 1841:
1861
Halton, Chirk (Halton is on the Pentre side of Chirk)
RG9/1880/98/11
William Moody, 37, coal miner, b. St Martins
Elizabeth, w, 38, b. Chirk - forgot to put her age in when I first posted
Mary, d, 10, b. St Martins
William, s, 8, b. Chirk
Frederick, s, 6, b. St Martins
Samuel, s, 1, b. Chirk
These last two were with the Coed yr allt family in 1871
gnu
Think you might have missed these. Ok - Frederick had a Frederick aged 8 in 1861 so that's his. My Frederick was son of a Richard s - so another Moody Frederick ::)
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Hi Gnu,
Your comment about
Interesting - from my Ruabon records
Marriage - Dec 25 1848
William Moody, collier, and Elizabeth Jones. Both of Cefn mawr and 'of full age'
Parents - John Moody and Samuel Jones
[/color]
This I found interesting also...BUT. If John Jones born 1844/5 is the son of Elizabeth why didn't he take the Moody name and why didn't he live with them. I think it would be more likely that John Jones has another biological father and William Moody is just someone who married his mother OR he is the product of another daughter of Samuel Jones.
I think first of all I need to find who the other children of Samuel and Mary Jones.
irene
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We won't know but he lists William Moody as father on his marriage certificate, doesn't he.
A thank you is always appreciated :)
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There is a baptism in my Chirk records that might be John:
May 17 1846 John s/o Elizabeth Jones, spinster of Pentre
Note that Samuel and Mary and grandson were living in Pentre in 1851
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Hi Gnu,
Sorry, I apologise I do appreciate your efforts. My only excuse is that you are so fast I am anxious to reply and to get the information off to you....unfortunately, I forget my PQ's.
As for the following information you sent.
There is a baptism in my Chirk records that might be John:
May 17 1846 John s/o Elizabeth Jones, spinster of Pentre
Note that Samuel and Mary and grandson were living in Pentre in 1851
Does that mean the Pentre birth etc. would be recorded in Chirk?
Thank you
irene
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My Chirk records again ~
Baptism
29 Sep 1822 Elizabeth d/o Samuel (labourer) and Mary Jones of Pentre
gnu
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Pentre was a township/settlement of Chirk parish - I don't want to repeat it ;D so see:
Hi Irene
Chirk (Y Waun in Welsh) was a fairly large parish with it's main centre around the church. Shops,pubs and other services are concentrated on the main through road that was the old A5 coach road to Holyhead - called Church Street as it passes through the village. There are a number of settlements in addition to this area:
Black Park/Halton to the North East of the village - located close to the site of the previous Black Park Colliery
Rhosywaun to the North of the village - mainly a concentration of housing built in the ?1930s and further extended in the late 1940s-50s. The Wharf is adjacent to this settlement but was there earlier.
Chirk Green - primarily a community based on the old rows of miners cottage - now knocked down and redeveloped
Pentre - a settlement to the North of Black Park
The Forge/Pontyblew to the East - more an area of scattered houses close to the old forge than a settlement itself
Bronywaun/Church View -mainly a post WW2 housing development adjacent to the 'village' but extending for about a mile to the east.
Over the last 30 years more and more private housing (Maesywaun, Lodge Vale, etc.) has been built on the remaining land between these settlements so that only the outlying areas of Pentre, Black Park and the Forge/Pontyblew are distinct.
Other scattered housing and farms are located in the outlying areas.
There are two large 'family seats' - Chirk Castle, the home of the Myddleton family and Brynkinallt, the home of the Trevors.
Have a look at these two links:
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/DEN/Chirk/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chirk
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Samuel and Mary in 1841 - same area:
HO107/1399/4/12/9
William, is with them but no sign of Elizabeth - she was probably working elsewhere and very difficult to find an Elizabeth Jones of 15+ in that area on the 1841 :-\
added -
My Chirk records yet again ~
Baptism
5 Oct 1828 William s/o Samuel (labourer) and Mary Jones of Pentre
It's getting late so I'll have a look through the marriages tomorrow to see if I can see anything.
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Hi Gnu,
Thank you very much.
much appreciated.
irene
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Only one marriage showing in Chirk in the 1813-1837 period. They are both showing as being b. Chirk so this would be the most likely. Other parish that they might have married would be Llangollen, Ruabon or St Martins - all close by. I've had a quick look but don't see anything in Ruabon or Llangollen. St Martins' marriages are on the IGI - Batch no M085801 Jones is not an easy surname to track down :-\
Chirk Marriage by licence
2 Sept 1819 Samuel Jones (widr) and Mary Davies (sp, with con of par) .
Mary was under 21 when she married, so would be no older than her early 40s in 1841. She is noted as 45 (45 to 49 with rounding) on the census. There might be something in the marriage bonds at the National Library that gives more info on this - http://isys.llgc.org.uk/ Select Marriage Bonds, enter one of the names. When the file names come up, select the St Asaph diocese ones.
gnu
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This is all very tentative but all that I can find about Samuel at the moment.
On the 1852, he is down as being 69 - i.e. born circa 1782. On the 1841, he has been put in the 45-49 age band - i.e. born 1792-1796. He is recorded as born Chirk.
The only baptism that I can find is this one:
13 Jan 1782 Samuel Jones s/o Samuel and Sarah.
There is another baptism to this couple on 26 Jan 1777 Mary - Samuel recorded as a Corvr (shoemaker) and a marriage -
18 June 1773 Samuel Jones, shoemaker and Sarah Jones, both otp. Samuel Jones signed.
I also found that Samuel and Mary had a daughter, Sarah:
1st Jan 1826 Sarah d/o Samuel (labourer) and Mary Jones of Pentre
gnu
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Summary ~
Samuel and Mary Jones of Pentre had a daughter, Elizabeth bpt in 1822
John Jones bpt 1846 to Elizabeth Jones, spinster of Pentre
Elizabeth Jones m William Moody in 1848 Father given as Samuel Jones
1851 - John Jones appears as grandson, aged 5, to Samuel and Mary Jones of Pentre
1864 - Elizabeth Moody nee Jones dies aged 41 - b.c. 1823
William Moody, widr, marries Martha Phillips in 1864. One of the witnesses was a John Jones
John Jones gives his father's name as William Moody on his marriage cert in 1866. Witnesses were William and Martha Moody
gnu
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Irene
I've been using my own records, acquired over many years, but the Chirk and other Denbighsire parish records are now up (since last week) on the FindmyPast site. It's pay to view or by sub but probably worth looking at as Chirk records are not available online anywhere else. Because of the Terms and Conditions of FindMyPast we cannot give info from their records.
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/content/news/welsh-records
gnu
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Hi Gnu
Thank you so much for all the time you have put into this for me. It has certainly pointed me in the right direction (again). Now all I will be doing is finding more about our family from Denbighshire.
I guess I should also thank my gr. grandfather who almost consistantly recorded on his census records where he was born, even if he didn't live there most of his life. He must of been awfully proud of his Welsh roots.
Funnily enough, I had only a couple of months ago stopped using FindMyPast. It looks like I will be signing up again.
Again...thank you so much, your a treasure. ::)
irene
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Hello. I am new to these boards and trying to research my son's family with only (currently) a cursory knowledge of England and Wales. I am also looking for a John Jones of Chirk, Denbigshire, a coal bank laborer. My son descends from a Job Jones (born 1829 or thereabouts, presumably in Chirk). He is age 12 in 1841 Census, living with his parents - John and Elizabeth (both age 35). The oldest child is named Priscilla, age 15. Then Job, then Samuel (10), Mary (8), Levi (6), James (3), Jane (10 mos. in 1841).
By 1851 they are living in Bilston, Staffordshire, England. Any help in locating them pre-1841 and identifying the larger family to whom John and Elizabeth (nee ?) Jones connect would be greatly appreciated.
Job's daughter Ann married Thomas Hearp in Cannock in 1884, and shortly thereafter they settled in Pittsburgh, PA. It is a bit difficult to order records from the USA.
Evan
Irene
I've been using my own records, acquired over many years, but the Chirk and other Denbighsire parish records are now up (since last week) on the FindmyPast site. It's pay to view or by sub but probably worth looking at as Chirk records are not available online anywhere else. Because of the Terms and Conditions of FindMyPast we cannot give info from their records.
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/content/news/welsh-records
gnu
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To follow-up, I *did* just obtain some additional information from the FindMyPast site, recommended by "gnu." it was very helpful, so thank you! I have now John JONES of Chirk m. Elizabeth CASH of Chirk, 16 Aug 1824. Job JONES, their son, born May 3, 1829.
John JONES who m. Elizabeth CASH was likely born 8 September 1804, and baptized 10 February 1805. However, there is also another John JONES of Chirk, also son of John and Elizabeth, born February 17, 1802. Perhaps this first John died and the couple had another child with that name.
There is, adding to confusion, another Job JONES, born in Chirk in 1830. He is one year older than "my" Job JONES in other Census records. He is the son of John and Ann, and also moves to Staffordshire, but several years after the other Job JONES. Any relation? It seems Job is not a terribly common name for Chirk.
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Hi Evan and Welcome to Rootschat :)
I don't come on very often these days but your names ring lots of bells with me and the moves to Stafffordshire and Pennsylvania. I would need to get all my files out and read through. Unfortunately, I'm being admitted to hospital tomorrow and I'm not sure when I'll be back and fit enough to search through my boxes.
If you can wait, I'll get back to you in the next few weeks.
Regards
Gadget
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I can wait, and feel better!