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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: VictorianDreamer on Tuesday 06 March 12 09:13 GMT (UK)
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Hi everyone,
I'm after some information for a business in London during 1811 - 1832. I've searched newspapers until I'm blue in the face, but the only references I found was a small ad for an apprentice in 1811 and another advert for Scotch Rapee (sp). The latest reference we have for the business is an 1832 insurance record.
Insurance records:
1817 - 1,000 pounds.
1818 - 1,500 pounds.
1828 - 1,300 pounds.
1832 - 1,200 pounds.
The name of the man who owned the business was James Christie and we assumed the name of the business was Christie's. He was a tobacco/snuff manufacturer. There are two addresses for it on the insurance records, two for 42 Brewer Street and 2 for 43 Brewer Street, Golden Square.
I have hit a brick wall as far as researching the family, but that's not the information I'm after (have some new leads that need to be investigated). I ONLY want information about the actual business. If anyone that lives in the local area could possibly help out or point me in the right direction, I'd be willing to reimburse for any costs incurred of copying documents etc.
The conversion rate for the insurance amounts is actually phenomenal and I find it surprising that there isn't much information for such a successful business (And it doesn't help with Christie's Auction house in every search too!)
Thanks in advance if anyone can assist me with this information.
Victoria :)
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Have you seen this?
http://member.melbpc.org.au/~albonser/christies.html
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Thanks KG,
Yes, they're a relative we've been in contact with, but they don't have any info on the business either.
Victoria :)
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There's some interesting hisotry about Brewer Street, but I can't identify the buildings:
http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=41459#s3
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Hi hugatree,
That's where we found the information about the change of street addresses in the 1820's. Sadly, yes, no photos :( but the samples through out of other buildings is just gorgeous! And along with the insurance records, we do know that it was a brick, 3 storey, so it would have been a site to see in itself at the time :)
Victoria :)
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The Post Office London Directory of 1841 has this:
Christie, John
Tobacconist
205 Whitechapel Road
Any relation?
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Hi KG,
James Christie (tobacconist) did have three sons, John (1816), James (1818) and William (1822). John became a Solicitor's Clerk and worked with the Forth & Clyde canal company at it's London offices in Golden Square though. James, convict, and William a Master Baker.
As far as we know that John Christie isn't a relative...but...it's not out of the realms of possibility at all and we are still investigating a pile of Christie's from the areas.
Victoria :)
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He's in the 1814 PO Directory directory which is online http://www.rootschat.com/links/0krc/
( I googled Chriftie Brewer !)
The 1819 PO Directory has Christie J, tobacconist. 42 Brewer Street.
1822 Pigots lists Christie Jas as a tobacconist at 43 Brewer Street.
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Hi Shaun,
Thanks. We do know he was definitely there and have found as much as we can regarding directories, newpspaper clippings and the insurance records. It's more trying to find information about the actual business itself that we're after, pictures, film, rent/rates, actual business records, other than the insurance one's etc.
Victoria :)
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Interesting perhaps that he is listed as a tobacconist and is not in the lists of tobacco manufacturers in the directories.
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Hi Shaun,
There's a lot of 'interesting' goes on with this family! He doesn't seem to have advertised much to have had such what i'm assuming, would have been a roaring trade at the time? He was also a Deacon as Wells Street Church, but that's another story altogether!
Victoria
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Forgive me but this deserves a Sherlock Holmes quotation: "It is quite a three pipe problem, and I beg that you won't speak to me for fifty minutes."
Have you tried Westminster Archives? http://www.westminster.gov.uk/services/libraries/archives/ They might be able to help or to point you to someone who can? They might also be able to tell you whether the street numbering is the same as it is today, or whether 42-43 were somewhere else. I've just Streetviewed my way round and most of the buildings seem to be later than early C19, sadly.
One more thing on the building: are you sure it was his place of work rather than his residence? Many of the buildings in StreetView look as if they were originally residential?
My other thought is, where did the capital to set up the business come from? Worth looking into the family tree and Wills for this; also whether he married money (I have two neat examples of this in my own research - could even be that his wife inherited from a childless uncle or something).
As a much longer shot, what about apprenticeship? As this wasn't in the City of London (assuming I have my geograhy right) there is less chance of there being a direct link with Freedom of the City and a Livery Company, but worth a whirl. I've been to look at the Livery Company http://www.tobaccolivery.co.uk/home.html and it looks as if they won't have much info although they were still trying hard to protect their monopoly into the 19th century unlike many Livery Companies - I just wonder if he was trading outside the City because of that?
Hope this is helpful rather than stating the obvious or setting off a wild goose chase.
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Someone else interested in this family http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,298720.msg1809556.html
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I rather think that, with businesses, it's only the bad news that gets left behind in archives!
I had a search on The London Gazette, but it doesn't look as if he ever went bankrupt?
(unlike some of my lot!!)
Also no mention of any partnerships starting or ending. ::)
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Hi Graham,
I'm hoping someone in London, near the archives can help out there. I have looked on the site, but nothing jumps out at me for him in particular. Last resort will be to actually contact someone at the archives and employ them to do the hunting.
42/43 Brewer Street was long ago changed and after looking at an old map, it seems a restaurant is in the location now. As to whether it's the same building or not, no idea, which again, is why I'd love to get someone local to investigate the building, rates or any other business documents. It's definitely where he worked and lived as the insurance records mentions plate, linen, china, etc and the business storage etc at the back of the building.
As to the capital, we are still not sure on his parentage yet and would love to 'trip' on something that said "Money paid by......." but i'm not sure how likely that is, so on the one hand we are still investigating this family and it's origins and connection back to Edinburgh, the business information is the only bit I can't do much with being in Australia, apart from hire someone at the archives to look, and that will be done if no one else can help.
No Wills of any of the family have been found. Possible Wills for 'possible' relatives, but so far no mention of our particular family.
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Apprenticeships, we're not sure whether to look in London or back in Scotland, so that's why we're still trying to determine his actual origins. We do know that his son did an Apprenticeship with Broadwoods Pianoforte Manufacturers when he was a teen, but not sure how likely it would be to see those records just yet. I know there's new records coming out all the time for all over the place, so i do still hold out hope that our lot will miraculously appear on a document and it will all be solved....only to then start on the same questions for the next generation!
Thank you for the suggestions though, any of the help given is appreciated, Graham.
Victoria :)
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Someone else interested in this family http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,298720.msg1809556.html
This is my sisters thread Shaun, so yes, same family.
Victoria :)
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Hi KG,
Yes, it's seeming that way about only the bad news got reported. I just find it surprising that he paid so much for insurance without advertising. Common business sense tells you that advertising is the best way and yet there is none to be found apart from the one small one I did find.
Victoria :)
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Do you know how much of the insurance was for the buildings, how much for stock etc?
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Hi Shaun,
This is a partial transcript of just one of the records.
On his now dwelling house only situate as aforsaid brick Eight hundred pounds.
Household goods, wearing apparel, printed goods and plate therein Two hundred pounds.
Storeroom behind rear brick and timber One hundred & fifty pounds.
Stock & utensils herein One hundred & fifty pounds.
Victoria :)
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I tried and failed but there might just be a tobacco trade journal that was circulating then. If it could be found, copies might be somewhere - Colidale, perhaps?
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They're an elusive bunch, but shouldn't be, so you're not the only one that's been stumped Graham! Thank you for trying anyway :)
What is Colidale?
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Colidale - no idea except a typo of mine!
What I meant was Colindale - the British Library's newspaper library
http://www.bl.uk/aboutus/quickinfo/loc/colindale/index.html
An amazing experience which is going to disappear as digitisation takes over.
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Ah, with you now. I've searched loads of newspaper/gazette's/books etc all over the place and other than a small ad and an early mention, I've never found anything for this lot! I figure someone local may have more hope on this one. My online resources are just not giving up anything on either them or the business!