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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: topas37 on Monday 05 March 12 15:16 GMT (UK)
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Alfred Matthew William Hedges May is my grandfather, he married Minnie Rose Lough in 1911 at the time he was a Colporal in the 2nd West Riding regiment
then went on to be a Prison Officer he died Dec 1967 on the Isle of Wight, but no matter how much we have tried we can't find his birth or place of birth we think he was born around 1890 can any body out there help us before I pull all my hair out or turn more grey than I already am
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HI
If you send for his Marriage Certificate it will give you his age at time of marriage which will help narrow it down. details for Marriage Year 1911 Jul,Aug,Sept, District Hartley Whitney, County Hampshire, Vol 2c Page 431
Regards
Pughy
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Hi,
On Isle of Wight FHS Death Records -
1967 MAY Alfred Matthew William 78 years 1888 - 1889 HEDGES (other surname)
That hopefully will narrow the search.
JJ
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Sorry perhaps I am being a bit thick are you saying his original surname was Hedges and then for some reason May was added to it
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HI
If you send for his Marriage Certificate it will give you his age at time of marriage which will help narrow it down. details for Marriage Year 1911 Jul,Aug,Sept, District Hartley Whitney, County Hampshire, Vol 2c Page 431
Regards
Pughy
It should also give the groom's father's name, so the family could be found in the pre-1911 censuses :)
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If you look at the link below you will be able to see the entry on the Isle of Wight FHS
http://www.isle-of-wight-fhs.co.uk/bmd_1/deaths/d_results_1.php?surname=may&forenames=&oname=&died_start=1967&died_end=1967&Search=Search
Not sure why it shows Hedges as other surname ???
Like Nick29 and Pughy said, it would be useful to obtain the marriage certificate to enable you to progress
JJ
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On findmy past there is an entry for Alfred May it is for a civil service Evidence of age
details given date of birth 25 June 1889
Bromley, Poplar
Middlesex
Type of record Birth
also known as Hedges M W
ref Z 86669 194
Regards panda
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Thanks that helps but not sure why he would change his name but I expect that will always be a mystery
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Type of record Birth
also known as Hedges M W
ref Z 86669 194
I wonder if this is his birth registration then?
Matthew William Hedges
Poplar
1C 577
Sept quarter 1889
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Possibly I will check, still confused as to why he added another Christian and surname to his name vwill probably never know
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There is this baptism
Poplar All Hallows
Matthew William Hedges
15th July 1889
Father Matthew Hedges clerk
Mother Amelia Hedges
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Hi
Birth for Matthew William Hedges
July Qrt 1889
Reg Poplar
Middlesex
Vol 1c
page 577
Baptism Record
15 July 1889
Father Matthew Hedges
Mother Ellen Amelia Hedges
Tower Hamlet
Death Record
Mathew W Hedges
Birth 1889
Oct Qtr 1967
Age 78
Reg Isle of Wight
Vol 6b
Page 997
It looks like his death was registered under both names?????
Margp
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There is this marriage for his parents - after his birth
Name: Matthew Hedges Age: 21
Spouse Name: Ellen Amelia Chatterton Age: 21
Event Date: 25 Dec 1889
Parish: Poplar St Stephen
Father Name: William Thomas Hedges
Spouse Father Name: John Chatterton
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There are army service records on findmypast for Matthew hodges borm Poplar 1899 Mothers name ellen Allen 4 suffock st North St Poplar. Also says younger brother william Thomas Hedges. If we try and find this family on the census records it might help solve the mystery.
Don't you just love family history
panda
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We know he was a Colporal in the 2nd West Riding when he married in 1911 and was stationed at Halifax
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Where do you get that information from do you have his papers etc?
Regards panda
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1891
RG12; Piece: 335; Folio: 20; Page: 33
383 West Ferry Road
All born Poplar
Matthew Hedges 25 labourer in lead works
Ellen Hedges 25
Matthew Hedges 2
Joseph F Hedges 4/12
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Matthew Hedges is a step son in the 1901 census
mothe remarried now Ellen Allen this ties in with the army information
ref Piece:349
Folio: 25
Page:42
Registration District:Poplar
regards panda
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We got his regiment info from his marriage cert
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Mother a widow by 1911does she marry for a third time? He might then take new step dads surname. Anyway off to make the tea. Will check back later to see if we have solved this puzzle.#
Happy hunting
panda
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Thanks for all your help
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Sorry from earlier post I got the impression you didn't have the marriage cet???? If you have it does it give his fathers name and occupation so we can clarify that this is the same family pleae
regards panda
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Father was Matthew William May he was deceased by 1911 and we believe as writing not good that he was some sort of clerk possibly Insurance
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Father was Matthew William May he was deceased by 1911 and we believe as writing not good that he was some sort of clerk possibly Insurance
Interesting as the occupation fits with the details on the baptism
Matthew William Hedges
15th July 1889
Father Matthew Hedges clerk
Mother Amelia Hedges
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I cant see a death of a Matthew May that fits, but there is this death
Matthew Hedges
aged 26
Poplar
Sept quarter 1894
1C 386
This would tie in with Ellen being remarried by 1901. If Matthew/Alfred was using the surname May, he obviously would have given that as his father's surname.
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I wonder if he used a false name when he joined the army?
You need to see if you can find him under either name in the 1911 census. I guess as he married in Hartney Wintney and as Minnie Rose Lough came from there, that is where he would be.
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It was rumoured that he joined one regiment, left and joined another but have no proof of that but in 1911 he was a Colporal in 2nd West Riding stationed in Halifax and also in 1912 when my Mum was born, he was at one time Stationed in Gibralter and after leaving the army he became a Prison Officer was one assummed that he did nothing illegal unless the prison service didn't check to much into backgrounds
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There are army service records on findmypast for Matthew
Looks like he was in the militia :)
HEDGES Matthew bn c1889 London, Middlesex
Royal Fusiliers (City Of London Regiment) - 7th Foot
WO96 Militia
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This is all doing my head in wish I had started this years ago when people were alive to ask
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This is all doing my head in wish I had started this years ago when people were alive to ask
Join the club - we've all said that.
Have you found him in the 1911 census, if so what name was he using then? He must have been in Hampshire at some time to have met Minnie, as according to the free 1911 she was there then.
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In 1911 he was listed in the army in Halifax so don't know how they met
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I see he is under the name of Alfred May then and says he was born in Lewisham, which is the opposite side of the river from Poplar. Very strange.
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Fed the family now back to family history. I have looked for him in the 1911 census under ervery possible name and date of birth combination but can't locate him ???
anyone got any bright ideas ???
Was he serving abroard at the time of the census?
Regards panda
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I can't see him either panda, and I can't find the May connection, his mother died as an Allen
Death Record
Helena A Allen
DOB 1866
Age 60
Reg Wandsworth
London
Vol 1d
Page 402
Baptist Record
Helena Amelia Chatterton
3 June 1866
Father John Chatterton
Mother Catherine Chatterton I wonder if she is a May?
Tower Hamlets
I find it strange that his death was registered in both name's so, it was common knowledge that he was know as both?????
Margp
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Nope - that's not the May connection
Marriages Mar 1854
Blackwell Catherine Poplar 1c 827
CHATTERTON John Thomas Poplar 1c 827
In 1911 he was listed in the army in Halifax so don't know how they met
Down as Alfred May
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Hi Topas
Who were the witnesses on the marriage certificate?
Margp
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The witnesses were Eleanor Emily Lough and James Edward Lough not a lot of help as that is his wife's family, we can't understand where the May came from or the Alfred it's a real puzzle
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It was rumoured that he joined one regiment, left and joined another
I wonder if that is a clue - did he rejoin under a different name for some reason?
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Your guess is as good as mine, as I say it is only a rumour I have no way of confirming this as nobody left in the family knows anything
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Look at this
First name(s): Matthew
Last name: HEDGES
year of birth: 1889
Parish of birth: Poplar Middlesex
Age at attestation: 17 years 2 months (29th Aug 1906)
Attestation corps: 5TH ROYAL FUSILIERS
Attestation soldier number: 6070
Discharge corps: Royal Fusiliers (City Of London Regiment) - 7th Foot
Looks as if he joined under the Hedges name.
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Well when he married in 1911 his name was Alfred Matthew William Hedges May and he was listed as a Colporal 2nd West Riding Regiment stationed at Halifax.
Anyway thanks for all the info everybody have left it for my husband to sift through as I am off to work now, but please keep the info coming if you have any and I will check it out in the morning
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Look at this
First name(s): Matthew
Last name: HEDGES
year of birth: 1889
Parish of birth: Poplar Middlesex
Age at attestation: 17 years 2 months (29th Aug 1906)
Attestation corps: 5TH ROYAL FUSILIERS
Attestation soldier number: 6070
Discharge corps: Royal Fusiliers (City Of London Regiment) - 7th Foot
Looks as if he joined under the Hedges name.
He was only in this unit for couple of months then transferred to R M S J what ever that is???
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Royal Military something?
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This is just a theory but it does happen. Alfred/Matthew was born in June.
Matthew and Ellen married after birth.
Could the mysterious May surname come from Alfred/Matthew's real father and Ellen only married Matthew afterwards and he took on Matthews surname of Hedges. Only to find out in later life his real surname should be May.
It may pay to order his birth certificate to see if it contains any other information that might help us unravel this mystery. his might explain why he uses all four names.
I would also suggest looking back through the censuses to see where Matthew and Ellen were before they married.
regards panda
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Could be and I wondered that, but the baptism gives Matthew Hedges as his father
Matthew William Hedges
15th July 1889
Father Matthew Hedges clerk
Mother Amelia Hedges
Unless of course Matthew was willing to accept him as his. Odd as they weren't married but she is down as Hedges.
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The information on the marriage certificate stating he was a corpral in the 2nd Wesr Riding regiment has yet to be proved. Has anyone access to these records or can find anything on line. We know that people did put little white lies on their marriage certificates and to date we have only found evidence of him serving in a different regiment under a different name
Another possible spanner in the works
panda
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That is the same information as the Alfred May in the 1911 census in Halifax.
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Another spanner in the works
Marriage Index
Matthew Hedges to Ellen Amelia Chatterson
Oct Qtr 1888
Reg Poplar
London
1c
1192
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Another spanner in the works
Marriage Index
Matthew Hedges to Ellen Amelia Chatterson
Oct Qtr 1888
Reg Poplar
London
1c
1192
The Parish record as been transcribe incorrectly and is 1888 on the original
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There is a mistake in the transcription, I've looked at the Parish records and it should be 1888. So they married before his birth.
Name: Matthew Hedges Age: 21
Spouse Name: Ellen Amelia Chatterton Age: 21
Event Date: 25 Dec 1889
Parish: Poplar St Stephen
Father Name: William Thomas Hedges
Spouse Father Name: John Chatterton
I can see what has happened, the next year is on the same page and whoever transcribed it took the whole page as 1889
Snap Margp ;D
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On findmy past there is an entry for Alfred May it is for a civil service Evidence of age
details given date of birth 25 June 1889
Bromley, Poplar
Middlesex
Type of record Birth
also known as Hedges M W
ref Z 86669 194
Regards panda
Hi Topas you can order this on the following link
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/csEvidenceOfAgeSearchResult.action?earfnbr=39552
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Well, I been racking my brain, as to why anyone would what 2 Death Certificates for the same person, in 2 different names, and the only thing that I can come up with is that, he may have had Insurance Policies/Bank Accounts in 2 differnt names and this was the only way to obtain the money that he had left???????????
Margp
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I have found Matthew W Hedges b 1889 in a tree on Ancestry, there is also a Alfred Sidney May b 1875 Elstead Surrey in the the same tree, but I have not found how they could be related yet, or am I just clutching at straws.
Margp
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Jsut to clarify it the GRO has his death in both names, but with the same number, so there is no doubt it is the same man.
Alfred May
Age 76
Dec quarter 1967
I.O.W. Hampshire
6B 997
Matthew W Hedges
Age 76
Dec quarter 1967
I.O.W. Hampshire
6B 997
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Jsut to clarify it the GRO has his death in both names, but with the same number, so there is no doubt it is the same man.
Alfred May
Age 76
Dec quarter 1967
I.O.W. Hampshire
6B 997
Matthew W Hedges
Age 76
Dec quarter 1967
I.O.W. Hampshire
6B 997
Jan do you think that all the information would be on one certificate
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As I understand it, he enlisted aged 17½ in 1906 under the name of Matthew Hedges, but was in the 1911 census and married that year under the name of Alfred Mays, so the name change came between then.
Two theories:
1. Something happened in the army causing him to leave one regiment and rejoin another under a different name.
2. He changed his name in order to inherit money when he reached 21. I have a relative who did this, but only added a surname,
he didn't change his first name as well.
The fact that he kept his given names as middle names make me think that he didn't do anything illegal.
I dont know, Margp as I've never come across it before. As you order certificates by the number I wonder what they would send you?
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How about this scenario.....
Matthew Hedges marries Ellen Chatterton, they have a son Christened Alfred.
Alfred joins the army under the name Hedges.
Later on, Ellen is widowed, marries again to a May, and her husband adopts Alfred, and he takes on his adopted father's name by tacking May on the end of his name.
When he dies, birth death certificates are issued for both names for insurance/pension purposes.
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How about this scenario.....
Matthew Hedges marries Ellen Chatterton, they have a son Christened Alfred.
Alfred joins the army under the name Hedges.
Later on, Ellen is widowed, marries again to a May, and her husband adopts Alfred, and he takes on his adopted father's name by tacking May on the end of his name.
When he dies, birth death certificates are issued for both names for insurance/pension purposes.
Hi Nick we have already covered this in previous post and it came to nothing
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Hi Topas
Did Alfred and Minnie have any children while he was still in the army, if he did his regiment number may be on there birth certificates.
Marg
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How about this scenario.....
Matthew Hedges marries Ellen Chatterton, they have a son Christened Alfred.
Alfred joins the army under the name Hedges.
Later on, Ellen is widowed, marries again to a May, and her husband adopts Alfred, and he takes on his adopted father's name by tacking May on the end of his name.
When he dies, birth death certificates are issued for both names for insurance/pension purposes.
The trouble with that is that he was baptised Matthew William Hedges and changed both his first and surname.
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There appear to have been 3 children from the marriage:
Doris E H born Hartley Whitney 1912
Ellen A H born Halifax 1914
Grace P H born Farnham 1916
Interesting that they all have a name starting with H - could that be the continuation of the Hedges?
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There appear to have been 3 children from the marriage:
Doris E H born Hartley Whitney 1912
Ellen A H born Halifax 1914
Grace P H born Farnham 1916
Interesting that they all have a name starting with H - could that be the continuation of the Hedges?
I would say you are right there Jan, its a good job there were no boys they would have been named May but descendants of Hedges
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On findmy past there is an entry for Alfred May it is for a civil service Evidence of age
details given date of birth 25 June 1889
Bromley, Poplar
Middlesex
Type of record Birth
also known as Hedges M W
ref Z 86669 194
Regards panda
Hi Topas you can order this on the following link
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/csEvidenceOfAgeSearchResult.action?earfnbr=39552
It might be interesting to know the date on this record and why,it was probably when he joined the Prison Service?
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My Mum was the D.E.H. May and on her birth cert is gives her name as Doris Elizabeth Hedges May
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My Mum was the D.E.H. May and on her birth cert is gives her name as Doris Elizabeth Hedges May
Does it mention on her BC her father occupation?
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Occupation Corporal 2nd West Riding Regiment
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What shame there is no regiment number, we can't find any army records for him in this regiment under any of his names
Margp
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He was stationed in Gibralter at one time as one of my Aunts not mentioned in previous message was born there her name was Alfreda and was born in 1923, my grandfather joined the prison service in 1928 first prison Wakefield, then Dartmoor, and ended up at Parkhurst IOW which is how my grandparents ended up there
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Hi
I have found your aunts birth record, can you confirm that she is no longer with us, before I post the details, as we not allowed to post anything on living people.
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Yes she died in the 1980's I think, have sent for that Civil Service Evidence of Age not sure what it will tell us but hopefully something interesting
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Alfreda E H
b 1923
Station Bostandjik
Country Unknown
Page 615
GRO Army Births Indices (1881-1965)
I have a not got a clue where Bostandjik is, I googled it, and it mention something about a cemetery in Turkey??????????
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I know that my grandfather was definetly on Gibralter, as my Mum used to talk about living there and as far as I knew Alfreda was born while they were there
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I think that we need a Military expert on this, it may be worth posting on that Forum to see if they can find him in the 2nd West Riding Regiment, I am also wondering if he was on some sort of covert mission, and may have been the reason for the names change???
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Don't know anything is possible but thanks again for all your help, my husband is trying to sift through all the information and make sense of it
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I think that we need a Military expert on this, it may be worth posting on that Forum to see if they can find him in the 2nd West Riding Regiment, I am also wondering if he was on some sort of covert mission, and may have been the reason for the names change???
He must have been very young then as the name change was before 1911 when he would have been 22. We have his army records as Matthew Hedges, but I cant find any army records as Alfred May, but we know that he was still in the army, possibly in Turkey, in 1923.
If you do put a query on the Military forum, don't forget to link it back to this thread so that people don't waste time looking up what we have already found.
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Thank you going to put it on Military later when I get a minute not sure how to link it to this unless I just tell them what board etc the details are on
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Just copy and past from the bar at the top
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,585485.0.html
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See also this thread
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,585843.0.html
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topas37 alerted me to this thread because it's my tree on Ancestry for Matthew Willm Hedges. Can't help with his later life - this change of name is news to me - but I know abt his parents. His mother Helena Amelia Chatterton md Matthew Hedges in 1888.
Helen aAmelia was 6mths pregnant with Matthew Willm when she md Matthew. Two more children followed - Joseph Frek Hedges in 1890 and Willm Thom in 1892 before Matthew died in 1894 aged 26.
In 1896 she md Thomas Allen (the uncle of her 1st husband Matthew Hedges) who brought up the three boys before he too died in 1902. There's a likely death for her in Wandsworth 1926 when her surname was still Allen, making it unlikely she married a 3rd time although she might have lived with someone.
Of Matthew Willm's two siblings, Joseph Frederick died aged 2 in 1893. Willm Thomas was in the 1911 census with Helena Amelia and working as a Yard Clerk in Milwall Works. She was widowed and working as a Charwoman. I've nothing further on Matthew Willm after 1901.
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Hello Wendy and welcome to Rootschat, as you can see Matthew is a man of mystery. We seem to have established that he added the first name Alfred and the surname May at some point between joining the army in 1906 and 1911 when he appears on the census as Alfred May and his marriage in that year when he uses the full name of Alfred Matthew William Hedges May.
I suppose there is the possibility that Matthew Hedges (senior) was not the biological father of Matthew William Hedges and that he did take his "real" father's name in later life for some reason. If that is the case I wonder why he added a new first name as well rather that just the surname.
Jan
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Maybe if this is the case his biological father was called Alfred
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Possible, it just seems odd as Matthew (senior) obviously accepted him as his child as his name appears on the baptism, and unless his mother chose to tell him for some reason, there is no way he could know. It also means that the marriage took place very quickly after the liaison. ;D ;D It's annoying that we may never know the truth.
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I have sent for the Civil Service Evidence of age in the hope that this might shed some light on it and have today tried to contact my IOW cousins who knew him better than me as they all lived a couple of miles from my Grandparents, waiting for one of them to ring me back, and if as previous posts say his death was registered in both names obviously my Nan must have known about it and perhaps the IOW cousins might have my grandparents paper work tucked away somewhere
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Fingers crossed that they can throw some light on it. Let us know if you discover anything.
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Will do just watch this space you never know it might hold all the answers
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Hi & thanks for the welcome.
I haven't had time yet to absorb all that's been added here about the name-change but the details make more sense than they did at first glance.
My hunch is that Matthew Snr WAS the father of the Matt Willm and his 2 brothers because there's nothing about this family to suggest he wasn't. I can also see MW adopting the name of someone who became a father-figure because he'd have barely remembered his own father and I suspect the mge to her husband's uncle - 12 years older than Helena Amelia - was more of convenience than a love match...but calling yourself Alfred when your name is Matthew has me stumped! Likewise, can't be for criminal intent because he'd have dropped his original name altogether if so...
Not sure where an inheritance could have come from either - Helena Amelia was working as a charlady in 1911 and although I think it conceivable that she found another bread-winner (hence the move to Wandsworth?) she was no spring chicken to be showered with riches at age 45.
Will go back & read some more about this name-change. Does someone have MW's death cert? Is that registered as AMWHM or are there two certs? Wendy
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Apparently his death was registered as Alfred May and M.W. Hedges a link to the IOW historical society amongst the posts somewhere
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but has anyone actually obtained a copy of the entry from the IoW Register office? I'm wondering how his 'other surname' of Hedges is defined - 'also known as' or 'formerly known as'?
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I can send for death cert on the IOW historical website it just says had Hedges as another surname, I am waiting for phone calls from IOW cousins haven't been in touch with for years, so I might have to keep phoning until I find them in
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According to Freebmd there two registrations, one in each name, but with the same registration number - see post 53.
If nothing else, topas it will put you back in touch with your cousins. ;D
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Yes it's listed 3 times on the Home Office GRO's records - ALFRED MAY, ALFRED M W MAY and MATTHEW W HEDGES but they're all referenced Vol 6B Pge 997 so I just wondered meanwhile how the powers-that-be accounted for so many name variations.
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Do you want me to send for cert
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Let's see what your family say. If they knew your grandparents their memories could be more useful than any certificates. I'll send for the dth cert meanwhile and then we're covered!
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Hi
The GRO index is created from information on the registration so if for example an informant advises the registrar that the deceased was John Smith but was also known as James Black then both names would appear on the registration and the GRO would index the death under both names. There would only be one registration. The actual wording on the death registration (not the index) would be helpful
Andy
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Thanks, Andy.
I haven't come across that before so I didn't know how it worked.
Wendy
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Hi Wendy and welcome to Roots
Can you tell us if you have come across the name May in your tree?
Margp
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OK, I've looked through this now - thanks everyone.
I've also revised my original opinion of an inheritance being unlikely - he's clearly gone to a lot of trouble to keep his original name alive, as if he was reluctant to change it. Even adding Hedges to his dghtrs names is odd - I know about the custom of adding the mother's maiden name but these Hedges didn't do that either.
So I agree now that inheritance is most likely. I wonder if topas37's cousins can shed any light; if the grandparents showed signs of undue affluence? It must surely have been a sum worth having to warrant the hassle of the name-change. I'm also theorising that the benefactor was an "Alfred May" and childless or without surviving sons to make the name-change significant? Or a codicil attached to the original inheritance stipulating that it could only pass to an "Alfred May" regardless of the current benefactor's knowledge or wishes? Just thoughts.
Still finding it impossible to believe that my immediate Hedges had any money to leave I then thought it could have come from a fallen comrade? There's an Alfred John May, solldier, b 1891 in Hartley Wintney in the 1911 census. The only trouble with this theory is that he appears to have been still alive and kicking in 1970!
But returning to topas37's original query to me yes I do have an Alfred Sidney May in my Hedges tree but as he was born 1875 in Surrey, married Alice Emily Lampard in Surrey 1902 and died 1938 in Surrey I couldn't originally see any connection to Poplar or the Isle of Wight until Hartley Wintney came into the frame on this thread because the Hedges/Mays are related to the Priseman's of HW. Harriet Sarah Hedges b 1858 in Lambeth md John Priseman in 1874 in Poplar. He was born HW. Alice Emily Lampard was born in HW in 1882. I haven't done much research on the Priseman family, being so extended from me, but I do remember when I looked at them a few years ago - and there's a lot of them as I recall - other researchers seemed to think they originated from landed gentry or nobility or something. My GG Aunt, of course, married the one who worked as a labourer in the docks!
Last thought, is there any independent evidence putting Matthew in Halifax in 1911 apart from the census? I can see Minnie was there in 1914 to give birth to their daughter but I'd have thought the census for Alfred May b c 1888 in West Ham a more likely match. But he was stationed in Dinapore Cantonment India in Apr 1911 with the W Middlesex Regt (at least I think it says "W"). Is that possible?
Wendy
PS my "Hedges Tree" is public on Ancestry.co.uk if anyone wants to check it out.
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Hi my Grandparents definetly didn't have any money, they didn't even own their own home and when they died they didn't leave anything to their children, I only have the phone number of one of the IOW cousins, since our parents died we haven't really been in touch, I have tried ringing her a couple of times but so far had no luck will keep trying though, perhaps when I get this civil service record it might shed some light on it
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On his married cert it says Colporal 2nd West Riding Halifax and that was 1911
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Oh well, I guess Poplar and Lewisham are easily confused when you're in Halifax :)
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I tried to put a photo of my grandad on here for you to see in case he looked like anybody in your family, but I couldn't get it to post
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Tried again he is the one sitting down not sure how old he was there
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Have just spoken to one of my IOW cousins and he said Grandad was born within the sound of Bow Bells which makes Poplar as his birth quite likely but he doesn't know anything else other than it was thought he deserted from one regiment and joined another one in the North that could be the West Riding Reg in Halifax
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Have just spoken to one of my IOW cousins and he said Grandad was born within the sound of Bow Bells which makes Poplar as his birth quite likely but he doesn't know anything else other than it was thought he deserted from one regiment and joined another one in the North that could be the West Riding Reg in Halifax
So that could be the answer, he changed his name after he deserted, time wise that would fit. Interestingly there is a soldier called Alfred May in Hartley Whitney in 1911, did he use his name? He must have been there at some point to meet Minnie. In the 1911 he is just down as Alfred May in Halifax, but perhaps he felt he had to use the Matthew William Hedges bit on his marriage certificate to make sure it was legal.
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Could be this cousin is not in touch with any of the other relatives on the IOW but he is going to try and find contact details for them as he thinks they may have had my Nans paperwork when she died
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I'm struggling with the idea that he changed his name just to avoid being ID'd by the Army - quite the opposite if my reading of this is right - he's gone to some lengths to keep his original name, in conjunction with his "new" name, alive throughout his life. It just isn't jelling for me yet that he was hiding his identity from anyone - but maybe I've missed a loop somewhere...?
Also, East-enders of this generation didn't hold a candle to house-owning - more likely they were suspicious of it. If they earned/acquired/came-by any money they'd put it into gold - always pawnable when the rainy day came. And those were the prudent ones, the rest just p* it up the wall on drinking and the dogs! But these are my first-hand recollections of "my" Hedges family from what I knew of them in the 1950/60's.
Meanwhile, I should be getting Matt William's death cert in the next few days. It'll be interesting to see if it tells us anything we don't already know. Wendy
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The thing that strikes me about all this is that he was relatively young when he made the name change - between 18 and 22. For whatever reason he did, as I believe Topas knew him as Alfred May, he obviously stuck to that name throughout his life. This would make a good novel. ;D
I hope the certificate sheds some light on it.
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Yes, but when he died his "Hedges" name held enough resonance for it to be listed as an alternative name on his death cert - intriguing! Course, it'll probably turn out - if we ever get to the bottom of it - to be something quite mundane. But such are the speculations that keep us family researchers busy and guessing :)
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I'm sure what ever the reason was money or inheritance wasn't at the centre of it, as far as I know he neither drunk, smoked or gambled my Mum said money was always in short supply when she was growing up and we all used to help out financially in their later years. I only remember him as an older man as they lived on the IOW and we lived in London so didn't see them very often, my memories of him were of a deaf man, who turned his hearing aid off when my Nan nagged him, and who if you gave him any money he would straight away go off and buy sweets, but apparently, he was in his younger days a very harsh father, he never treated my Mother very nice, as she was the eldest and wasn't born a boy, he went on to have three more daughters, who he treated fairly, it was just my Mum he had the problem with. That's familys for you
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Good morning all
Well I think that this as been the most intriguing post I have been on, I agree, that I don't think that Alfred May was trying to hide his identity, especially as he was employed as a Civil Servant.
The name Alfred May was very important to him he even had his daughter christened Alfreda
I am still under the impression that Matthew Hedges father was an Alfred May and at the age of 18/21 his mother told him the true identity of his father hence the name change.
Lets hope that the records that Wendy and Topas have sent for, will answer all our questions on this fingers crossed
Marg
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I think you are probably on the right track it wasn't unknown for women to be pregnant, but marry someone other than the biological father so the child wasn't born out of wedlock, Alfred May might have died or been a wrongun and disappeared when she got pregnant hopefully eventually we will find out
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I wonder why she told him though, as he was obviously registered and baptised with Matthew Hedges as his father? What a pity that we cant find out where his mother was before she married - perhaps she was a servant in the May's house. I agree this could be a possibility, but find it a bit odd that he should take the name of someone he knew nothing about, unless he came back into his life.
I've lost track a bit, have we managed to find any army records in the name of Alfred May, if so did he use the Matthew William Hedges part of his name, or did the army just know him as Alfred May?
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I wonder if this is Helena Amelia in 1881 in a school run by the Sisters of Mercy?
Ellen Chatterton Industrial Girl (scholar) born Middlesex about 1866 at 23,25,27 High St Lewisham.
I think her mother died in 1876
Catherine Chatterton
June 1876
Poplar 1C 420
Her father was in Poplar Workhouse in 1881 and is a widower.
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It's possible haven't got as far as looking at that connection yet, have sent for my Aunt Alfreda who was born in Gibralter (while he was still in the army) birth cert to see if that tell's us anything more
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Hi groom, yes I've got Helena Amelia as a scholar in 1881 and previously living with her parents & siblings in Bright Street Poplar in 1871. Her parents were John Chatterton and Catherine Blackwell who died in Poplar 1876. With her father in the workhouse and her mother dead that's probably how Helena got into the School by 1881.
I can't see any evidence yet that Matthew Hedges mge to Helena wasn't quite straightforward. Aged 21 and 22, the right age for courting, and marrying as soon as they found out she was (3 months) pregnant, going on to have two more children - there's nothing here to suggest they wouldn't have lived happily-ever-after if he hadn't died at 26, is there?
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Wendy have you had any contact with the Chatterton's or Blackwells would they know anything or would that just complicate matters more
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Hi Jan
I think on the 1911 census Alfred May stated he was born in Lewisham?
Also, there have been no army records found under the name of Alfred May, I think that there was a possible medal card for him with reg no 9318, I think that if nothing comes of the records that are in hand, is for Topas to send for Alfreda's BC this may give more information on Alfred's army regiment number.
Marg
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Sent for Alfreda's birth cert today lets see what that tells us if anything
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Wendy have you had any contact with the Chatterton's or Blackwells would they know anything or would that just complicate matters more
No, I've got quite a lot on Ancestry about the Chatterton/Blackwell families but I haven't delved into them because I'm not directly descended from Helena. In the early days of my research my main interest in her was how she managed to marry two of my Gt Gt Uncles. When I figured that out - as best as anyone probably ever will - I abandoned the Chatterton/Blackwells.
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Also, there have been no army records found under the name of Alfred May,
Well no, there wouldn't be. The records on Ancestry are for men discharged or died up to 1921. Alfred May was obviously still serving in 1923, so (as explained in the other thread on Armed Forces!) his records should have survived intact and be available to order by next-of-kin from the MoD.
Info & forms etc. at http://www.veterans-uk.info/service_records/army.html
Cost £30 and 6-12 months' waiting.
The only thing we can't be 100% certain of is whether 9318 Alfred May is YOUR Alfred May. However, if Alfreda's birth certificate shows her father to be a WO2 (sergeant major) or higher with 1st West Riding in Constantinople (or GibraltAr if you insist; maybe she was born en route but the birth wasn't registered until they reached Turkey - who knows?!), and if the photo kindly posted by Ady in Reply#13 on the other thread resembles any photos of Alfred May that topas may have, then I'd say that was good enough evidence to risk ordering the service record.
Note that, if there's a service number on Alfreda's BC, it won't be 9318. All soldiers were renumbered in 1920, so it will be a 7-digit number starting with 46 for a man in the West Riding Regt.
Adrian
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I have ordered Alfreda's birth cert will wait and see what that tells us, and then I will see if its worth spending £30 to get his military records or one of my cousins if I get to contact them might know more, I sent for some military records for my husband's father and was told I had to wait at least a year for them I thought that was because his records were WW2 but from what you say it's any records, but we might have a trip to Halifax and see if they hold any records there that we can check
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Hi Topas
Do you know if your cousin in the IOW as any medal's ect that belonged to Alfred
Marg
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I won't know until I get in touch with them, the cousin who I spoke to at the weekend is Alfreda's son and has been out of touch with his sister and our other cousins for many years, and I don't have any contact details for them, although he is going to try and get contact details for me, if not when my brother returns from Atlanta he may have their phone numbers or addresses as he actually started this tree and went over to the Island to visit the cousins, but he didn't get very far with the tree so I took it over
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Got any email back today from GRO they can't process Alfreda's birth cert not enough information given, I gave all the info Margp posted which I also checked on Find My Past so not sure what to do next although GRO have given me a phone number and I will ring later and see what the problem is
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I wonder if it's to do with the fact that she was born abroad in Turkey? Probably it is registered differently with the GRO.
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I wonder if it's to do with the fact that she was born abroad in Turkey? Probably it is registered differently with the GRO.
I think that could be it Jan, but I do find that the GRO are not as diligent as they were year's ago.
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I rang the GRO not very helpful but I explained that this was all the information I had, they said try ordering it again so I have
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Hi Topas
If you don't get any joy, ring them again and ask to speak to a manager, I done this in the past and they have found what I was looking for.
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Ok thanks you can only give them the information that is available they must have some way of finding it
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Was there a way of making it clear to them that it was an overseas birth?
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Was there a way of making it clear to them that it was an overseas birth?
The record is for Army Overseas Births, you are right Jan this must be mentioned.
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Not sure how it was worded but it was for people overseas to forces personel so yes they did know that
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Yes that was the wording and yes I did apply in that section
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Well I have good news and bad news, in 1928 when Alfred Matthew etc joined the prison service he signed a declaration stating he was Matthew William Hedges, son of Matthew and Ellen Amelia Hedges formerly Chatterton but he actually signed the declaration A. May which when he was at Dartmoor Prison it gives his name as Alfred May without the other names, I know this as I have visited the prison museum and seen his name in their ledger for staff members, so none of this actually explains how it got from Matthew William, to Alfred Matthew etc, I am hoping my Aunt's birth cert will reveal any more info as she was born abroad, and I am still trying to track down my cousins on the IOW without much luck so far
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At least we know we were following the right family.
I've got an awful feeling that this is going to be one of life's unsolved mysteries. He cant have done anything awful, otherwise he would have tried to hide his name. It might be worth trying to find if there was anything in newspapers of the time. I have a relative who changed her name to Anglicize it and there was an announcement in the London Gazette.
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I will have a look over the weekend when I am not at work and see if I can find anything
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Have just received birth cert for Aunt born overseas his name is listed as Alfred May Seargeant 4601981 1st Batt The Duke of Wellington Regiment it gives both Turkey and Gibralter as residence it says place of registration Turkey, place of residence Gibralter
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So that means everyone was right - the registration being in Turkey, but her birth being in Gibraltar. Still no clues to the name change though. :(
I think the only way now may be his military records as it does seems as if the name change occurred while he was in the army, so the reason may have been recorded there. On the other hand it might just say something like, "Henceforth to be known as ......" in which case you will still be none the wiser. I wonder if he left a will and whether that would throw any light on it?
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Hi Topas
You now have his Regiment Number, I think that next step as suggested in previous post is to get his Army Records from the MOD, I think that it would be worth taking a chance that the answer could be in these records,if not, at least, you will the history of his army life.
I wonder if Wendy as had the Death Certificates yet
Margp
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Haven't seen any posts from her
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Hi Topas
You now have his Regiment Number, I think that next step as suggested in previous post is to get his Army Records from the MOD, I think that it would be worth taking a chance that the answer could be in these records,if not, at least, you will the history of his army life.
I wonder if Wendy as had the Death Certificates yet
Margp
No, I was hopeful for today but looks like next week now. Will let you know....
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Wendy has death cert it says Alfred May otherwise Alfred Matthew William May otherwise Matthew William Hedges, not a lot of help. To get Army records apparently can take upto a year, so we are thinking on having a ride to Halifax they have a museum there and see if we can get any information there, but it won't be for a few weeks, proberly in May.
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Wendy has death cert it says Alfred May otherwise Alfred Matthew William May otherwise Matthew William Hedges, not a lot of help. To get Army records apparently can take upto a year, so we are thinking on having a ride to Halifax they have a museum there and see if we can get any information there, but it won't be for a few weeks, proberly in May.
The death certificate is helpful in that it confirms the names he used during his lifetime.
You mentioned in an earlier post that he may have deserted from the army and then joined a different regiment.
Findmypast has some service records for Matthew Hedges born London 1889. It would be worth downloading these to see if they are your Matthew. If they are his and he did desert then that would explain the change of name.
I would make a list of all documents relating to him, census, certificates etc, in date order noting the name he used and the location. This should help to identify when he changed his name
Andy
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The death certificate is helpful in that it confirms the names he used during his lifetime.
You mentioned in an earlier post that he may have deserted from the army and then joined a different regiment.
Findmypast has some service records for Matthew Hedges born London 1889. It would be worth downloading these to see if they are your Matthew. If they are his and he did desert then that would explain the change of name.
I would make a list of all documents relating to him, census, certificates etc, in date order noting the name he used and the location. This should help to identify when he changed his name
Andy
I agree, it's worth checking anything that's to be found on this man - we're all intrigued now. My impression though, far from hiding his original name, is that he's gone to some lengths to keep it in use.
Today's wording for change of name is "If you wish to be known by a different name you can change your name at any time, provided you do not intend to deceive or defraud another person. There is no legal procedure to follow in order to change a name. You simply start using the new name. You can change your forename or surname, add names or re-arrange your existing names. Although there is no legal way to change a name, you may want evidence that you have changed your name".
FWIW, my first-hand experience of this stems from my mother's change of surname in the 1940's; she had a deed-poll drawn-up and ceased using her previous name, therefore her original name was not given on her death certificate 30 years later. I also changed my surname in the 1960's but didn't have a deed-poll because I wanted to keep my original name in use - although not all at the same time as this man's done! I've since taken steps to ensure both my names appear on my death certificate - although I didn't know it would appear twice in the registers until Andy told me.
None of this exactly helps us with what this man did but he surely wouldn't have given both names to the prison service if he'd changed it to deceive and desert the army? And, again from my experience, you have to be quite proactive to keep a previous name alive. Officialdom is happier to let it sink without trace. topas, didn't you pin it down to happening btw 1906-1911? We know he was Matthew Hedges on the 1901 census aged 12.
Wendy
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Hi
I have just found this
Historical disclosure has access to records of all Army Personnel discharged from regular or reserve service between 1921-1997 except Officers and Soldiers of the Foot Guards Regiments, these records are held at the
Regiment Headquarters
Wellington Barracks
Birdcage Walk
London
SW1E 6HQ
Does this mean the Alfred's records may not be held with the MOD and can be obtained from the Regiment Headquarters
Topas does have Mathew Hedges Army Record he joined Royal Fusiliers in Aug 1906 and and transferred to the RMSI? Oct 1906 so he change his name between 1906 and 1911
Marg
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Hi
I have just found this
Historical disclosure has access to records of all Army Personnel discharged from regular or reserve service between 1921-1997 except Officers and Soldiers of the Foot Guards Regiments, these records are held at the
Regiment Headquarters
Wellington Barracks
Birdcage Walk
London
SW1E 6HQ
Does this mean the Alfred's records may not be held with the MOD and can be obtained from the Regiment Headquarters
Topas does have Mathew Hedges Army Record he joined Royal Fusiliers in Aug 1906 and and transferred to the RMSI? Oct 1906 so he change his name between 1906 and 1911
Marg
I think this means that the service records of the Foot Guards are at the Regimental Headquarters rather than in Glasgow where I believe the rest are.
Topas, if you have the service record for Matthew Hedges what does it say about his discharge?
Andy
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Hi Andy
There nothing about his discharge, it stated he was transferred to the R M S I or J ? on the 23 10 1906, underneath this lower down the page is another date Hounslow 26 10 1906
It also states he was with the 15th Middlesex V.C.R before joining up
Marg