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Some Special Interests => Occupation Interests => Topic started by: carol sea on Sunday 15 May 05 18:19 BST (UK)
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Anyone know what a 'night soiler' would do in 1871?? The mind boggles!! :-[
Carol
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"night soil" is/are the solid contents of the chamber pot/privy/ cess pit.
Pauline
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I had a horrible feeling that somebody would say that! Thanks for the prompt reply, anyway. ;)
So I suppose this chap was probably disposing of the contents of outisde loos, overnight.
Here was I hoping I was going to find something romantic in my tree!!!
Carol
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..... and before there were flushing loos,
(are you sure you wanted to know this :o ??? ;D )
someone had to go around all the posh houses and collect the "night soil" and take it away !
So a night-soiler "shovelled sh*t", literally !!
Fortunately, it's died out as an occupation ;D
PS:
My Dad tells me his Grandfather was the WC-Janitor at Regents Park;
In the 1901 census it states "Parkkeeper". (Well, it sounds nicer on the census form ! )
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At least it's caught everyone's imagination!
There are times at work when I feel I'm following in my ancestors footsteps ::)-although my job has absolutely nothing to do with bodily functions! ;)
Carol
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There are times at work when I feel I'm following in my ancestors footsteps Roll Eyes-although my job has absolutely nothing to do with bodily functions ;)
Yes, I get days like that, too !!
I suppose everybody has the "shovelling sh*t" feeling at sometime or other :-\
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"Night soil" had value - it wasn't just a case of taking it away and disposing of it. It was used in tanning, I believe.
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Right thats it Suttontrust I will never wear my leather facket again LOL
Joe
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Obviously, that should say Jacket
Joe
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Naw, that was dog poo used in tanning. They needed the bacteria to ferment the hide for three or more days to soften the leather. Didn't you see "Worst jobs in History" a few months back?.
Pauline
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Just discovered this online:
"In many cities in the developed world human wastes used to collected from storage tanks called privy vaults. The wastes were called "night soil" and were sold to farms as fertilizer. This practice continued until early in the twentieth century."
at
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/256350.html
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http://rmhh.co.uk/occup/
old occupations index
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The occupations index is great!
I can't believe my question has generated all this interest. Looks like I've found the right level of discussion, doesn't it!! ;D ;)
Stange the things that fascinate people-(or is it just genealogists that find the weirest things riveting?) Of course I include myself in that comment!!
Carol
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Here's my twopennyworth
Night soilers were working in some of the villages in Suffolk up until the 1950's . one I know of for certain was Long Melford much to the glee of the American Service men .
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Mine was in Lancashire- North Meols, a distict of Southport.
He lived at an address called Little LOndon, which I also found quite interesting- wonder where the name came from? ???
Carol
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Yes - night soil man was an occupation practiced until very recent times at Quickedge, Mossley Lancashire. Quickedge was a bit remote from the town of Mossley, mainly rented terraced houses on 'controlled rents' (tiny amounts). As a consequence the landlords wouldn't/couldn't pay for sewerage pipes. Toilets (lavvie's) were often shared, 1 to a group of houses, situated in a close or courtyard. They consisted of a shed with a wooden box like structure, hole in top to sit over. There were examples at Hollingworth, Cheshire of communal ones and I have a distinct memory from probably 1947 of a 6 seater! Outside round the back was a hatch behind which was stored the open top soil bin. A wagon (at one time horse drawn) would visit each week, remove the used bin and exchange it for a 'clean' one. There are stories about a horse drawn s**t cart running out of control down Stamford Road, Mossley, straight through the shop on the bend at the bottom!
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Pity the poor shopkeeper! And the customers, come to that.
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How about this for a photo I just happen to have!
Jane
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Good stuff, Jane. But I can't imagine why you happen to have a photo of a loo??!! ??? ;)
Carol
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Looks like a job for Dan Dan the lavatory man.
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Just a little poem i found
The lavatory man The lavatory man down in the subway underneath the ground theres an awful lot of bulls--t
hanging around some is wet some is dry some don't smell but me o My dan dan the lavatory man hes the superintendent of the s--thouse gang picking up the papers rolling up the towels working to the sound of the grumbling bowels plipperdeplop, a sound is heard its the sound of the slippery turd plipperdep,hear them drop do the oakey coaky to the s--thouse rock.
ps tryed to keep it clean
Jim
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Spot on Jane with the pic!
Does anyone know what a Tippler toilet is/was?
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Keith
2 links for tippler toilet.
http://members.aol.com/tamesidehistory/memories.htm
http://www.oneguyfrombarlick.co.uk/ltp/Interviews/TAPE%2078AH13.htm
Jane
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Well, it's true that you learn something every day! Especially on this site.
Carol :)
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Thanks for that Jane. I was in fact asking if anyone had or had not heard of them. Having sat on ours for many a year I am intimately aquainted. I would have regaled posters with some experiences but thought the subject was drifting to far off list. The diagram available on the Tameside site is accurate save that the 6 foot drop is a minmum, not a maximum. Also, no technical diagram can convey the experience.
Keith
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I have an ancestor whose occupation on marriage was "bottom trimmer". My wife thinks it's something to do with the seats of chairs, but his father was a farmer, so I reckon it's something to do with sheep, if you know what I mean.
Is anyone else out there a bottom trimmer?
Mike
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Bottom Trimmer Occupations in Google comes up with some interesting links about every kind of bottom job except trimmer. I know you've alluded to farming but was there any other major industry in the area. I'm thinking of course of the famous Sagger Makers Bottom Knocker which was a pottery job. Have you checked a relevant census. If you look at neighbour's occupations you may get some clues. Keep us posted.
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Hi,
The guy was in the Wybunbury area of Cheshire (near Nantwich I think). I had thought of the pottery industry but have never associated that with rural Cheshire in the 1860s.
I'll try to find him in 1861 and take it from there.
Mike
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Mine was in Lancashire- North Meols, a distict of Southport.
He lived at an address called Little LOndon, which I also found quite interesting- wonder where the name came from? ??
Just found this topic after searching for night soil.
I live in Southport - maybe you do too?
Anyway been here for over 5 years and have never heard of "Little London" was it the house name or area of Southport?
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Hi there
No I don't live in Southport but was sufficiently intrigued by my ancestors lives to visit last year, (just after the posting about Little London,actually).
I found a most helpful estate agent (yes, really!) who gave me a map and sent myself and my other half off in the right direction. Apparently. the area around London Street and London Square ( town centre - ish ) was known as Little London years ago.
One of them married a widow from Castle Street, which is very near by, so that convinced me that the info was correct.
Hope this is helpful.
Cheers
Carol
P.S. LOVE Southport! :)
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Of course, if your were a Night Soil Man your family might be a little dubious to spread the news to the world.
My dear old Thomas Richard Smith of Portsea is down as Labourer(Nightman)
Not good enough for his daughter Eliza Ann. On Both her marriage certificates Dad's occupation is 'Inspector of Nuisances'
;D ho ;D ho ;D ho
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re the Portsea night soil, It's funny how things surface (as it were)- I went to an archaeological talk last year given by the gent. who owns Cadland Manor by Southampton Water. He evidently went out with his metal detector and found a wonderful collection of 19th century Royal Naval buttons on his land. In fact he has become quite an authority on the subject.
He couldn't figure out where they came from until he delved into the records and found that his farm bought the night soil and road sweepings from around the Portsmouth area and spread it as fertilizer. I think it was put on barges and taken up S'oton Water and the buttons went with it!
The dreaded "1880 farmers pocketbook" gives a complete chemical breakdown of the subject but suffice it to say it made their marrows grow!
Fred.
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I have read in many books how sometimes the fellow would come along to do the emptying when one was firmly ensconced on the wooden seat. Those were the days !
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Well.........
I'm so surprised (NOT) that this topic is still getting read!
Had to be about the worst job available, I would think. Can anyone come up with a worse one?
Now, there's a challenge!!! ;D
Carol
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you might find one here:
Topic: Link: The Worst Jobs in History
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,165726.0.html
Bob
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Thanks, Bob!
I suppose fuller could be considered worse. At least my ancestor didn't have to climb into the stuff! :o
Carol
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Hello to all following this topic:
Couldn't resist adding a trans-Atlantic perspective to the discussion. Here in the U.S. the occupation goes by the somewhat more poetic name of "honey dipper."
My father grew up in the 1930s in a small coal mining village in Pennsylvania with all the comforts of home except an indoor toilet. The privy was politely--and impolitely--called an outhouse (and though many might disagree it bears no relation to our White House). It stood at the back of the yard, as far from the residence as possible.
Back then, the miners' homes were owned by the coal company. The honey dipper, I believe, was a company employee. Having the weight of the company behind him allowed him to ply his trade openly, without fear of embarrassment or mockery, by the light of day, rather than under cover of darkness.
Every month or so he and his large horse-drawn cart could be heard clopping through the village alleyways. This gentleman in charge of discharge, as it were, would halt his cart next to a loo and employ a large scooping device, also called a honey dipper, to "carry out" his responsibilities. The wagon was outfitted with a large tank, and what he did with its contents at the end of the day, I cannot even begin to imagine.
Those backyard loos eventually fell into disuse--not from disaffection but because they were outlawed for health reasons. My dad's father was an Italian immigrant who was not one to squander a resource. To his mind the outhouse still had a usefulness that perhaps only he and the honey dipper could see. He planted a black walnut tree next to it, and that walnut tree, growing where it did and having such rich fertilizer so ready to hand, is now a towering behemoth. And fecund. Sixty years on the tree produces masses of wonderful walnuts. I'd love to say that I eat them, and that they have made me what I am. But I don't! And they haven't!
Cheers,
John
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Thanks for a wonderful story johnnyboy - walnuts and all ::) ::)
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Thanks for kind words Emmeline:
After thinking on it a bit, I realize that I actually know very little about how the honey dipper went about the business of other people's business.
That means I'll have to research a sequel. My family still owns the property of which I wrote, and every so often I have to drive for several hours to make certain that no one has absconded with the house or converted my grandfather's walnut tree into firewood.
Check back after Oct. 9 for a sequel. I'll visit the property that weekend and will discreetly interrogate an old-timer or two. Maybe I'll even post a photo of the backyard institution--if I can find one that survives.
Cheers,
John
P.S. Love Emma Louisa's hat! ::) 8) :o ::) 8) :o
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Hello John
I look forward to the sequel of the honey dipper story.
Very much like to see a picture of the walnut tree if possible. No doubt a sight to behold with all the nutrients thereabouts.
Yes, my maternal grandma's hat is indeed a very fine one -glad you like it. :) :)
With kind regards..........
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There is more to this than meets the eye!
The "Night Soil" was a very important source of nitrate, thus the link with fertiliser.
However the was another very important use for this. It was an important early source for one of the nitrate components of gunpowder. I think the use of the the word "night" is in fact a corruption of the word "nitre". After all there was no real reason why the collection should be done in the dark. In fact I am sure that anyone doing the job would regard it as highly important that they see what they are doing. One slip, despite us thinking it funny, could still result in death or injury. Drowning or asphyxiation in some stinking pit is not one of the best ways to go.
Everyone stank in those days and there were few delicate feelings to be offended, so why should the job be hidden?
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I thought the collecting went on at night because people (especially in the wealthier areas of towns) didn't want to know what had to be done to their waste.
This is interesting about the gunpowder connection -
www.geology.ucdavis.edu/~cowen/~GEL115/115CH16fertilizer.html
"Early Western gunpowder was called "black powder" because it consisted of a finely ground charcoal base, mixed with sulfur and saltpeter (potassium nitrate). Saltpeter was the ingredient that was most difficult to obtain, and since it is the major ingredient in gunpowder best suited for military use, it was the supply of nitrate that became strategically important. By the end of the 1500s, the standard formula for military-grade gunpowder was saltpeter, sulfur, and charcoal dust in the ratio 6:1:1.
At this time, the only source of potassium nitrate was from rotting organic matter, especially rotting meat and urine. The saltpeter supplier would send out teams of collectors who would locate promising places to dig (abandoned privies and dungheaps) by tasting the soil before digging it out and carting it off to be boiled, strained and evaporated to produce saltpeter of the required purity. It is said that throughout Europe no privy, stable, or dovecote was safe from saltpeter collectors or petermen."
Monica
Moderator Comment: URL edited to act as link
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All interesting stuff, this!
Glad I asked the original question.
Now, thinking about the stuff being used as fertilizer made me think.....my family were farmers also, so perhaps having a relative who was a 'night soil man' would have been quite beneficial to them! ;)
Carol
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All this talk of nightsoil, reminds me of an incident some 45 years ago now, on a farm I was working in my summer holidays,
A large pit next to the farm buildings was used to collect every kind of excrement from the farm, or as the farmer so succinctly put it, 'a s***e cocktail'.
Every so often a tanker would come and collect the contents of the pit. [It was later used for muckspreading]
I happened to be there when the tanker came one day.
One of local 'characters' stood by the pit watching the proceedings,as the tanker was pumping out the contents. He wasnt the brighest star in the firmament.
When the tanker had gone with his first load, the farmer shouted to us that he had 'a brew on'.
So off we trundled to the barn for the said cuppa.
20 minutes later we emerged into the farmyard, to the faint cries of help coming from the pit. Sure enough, down in the pit, and up to his armpits was the aforesaid local character.
We threw some rope and dragged him out.
He muttered his thanks and wandered off down towards the village.
Later that same day we were all down the local, when the same local character walked into the tap room, having NOT changed or washed. PHWOAR Imagine 6 grown men all trying to exit through the same small door at the same time
The same story now lives on in village folklore [I visited for the first time in over 40 years last year] It is known as the S***pool Incident. Same local character still alive and well , in his eighties, perhaps he had discovered the fountain of youth ha-ha.
Tom
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Well i can do a bit of 'one upmanship' here. I only found out a couple of hours ago that i had an in-law whose job title was
Inspector of nuisances
On the census i could only read the inspector part, i put it up on the board asked for help in deciphering the rest of the words and lo & behold the grand title--Inspector of nuisances--was the answer, along with a job description!!
So as my man is an Inspector he must be one step up from your lot
Same job posher title ;) ;)
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Hi polidor, meet another one with an ancestor in the same biz!
My Thomas Richard Smith put himself down on his daughter's birth cert as a Labourer.
On the census returns he is Labourer(Nightman)
Not good enough for his upwardly mobile daughter he is down on BOTH her wedding certificates as Inspector of Nuisances.
That's given me many a laugh.
Bet it was a lonely trade, but I feel a bit less lonely myself now, I wonder if there are any more descendants of Inspector out there............ :)
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Just for fun
Sung by generations of Cub Scouts to the tune “There's no place like home”
The corporation muck cart was full up to the brim
The driver fell in backwards and found he could not swim
He sank right to the bottom just like a little stone
And as he sank he gurgled
There's no place like home
Seriously we lived in a village in the late 1940s and we all (houses ,school, village halletc) had pits which were emptied by tanker then he drove to the field behind our house and drove round and round disgorging the load
The field was on a slope and we kids loved to play in it-not on sewage day! We had a "tiger" swing over the pool at the bottom of the field. A rope hung from a branch with big knots to put your feet on looking back perhaps it wasn't so funny when we all took our turn falling in ::)
Trees
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'Down under' the official name was the 'Sanitary Man' and he came in a big square truck called the Sanitary Cart - with all these little doors along the side, where he would put all the full pans in after leaving a clean new pan in the outside toilet (the slang for it was dunny)
At Christmas time we would leave out a bottle of beer and he would leave a little X mas card with a poem on it (usually funny) signed 'The Sanitary Man'.
:o Very early one morning we were out driving and came across an accident where a Sanitary Cart and a Milk Truck had collided and the Sanitary Cart had overturned...not nice!
::)I shudder to think about the Good old Day's...between him, the ice-man and the prop man!
Now do you want some gruesome stories about Bali!
MC
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My mother (now nearly 91), who was born and bred in Norfolk, remembers the night soilers well - they were called "The Lavender Men". She has also told me that later on when cess-pools were installed my Grandfather would know when it was time for theirs to be emptied ........ the rhubarbs planted next to the cess-pool would be enormous!
Ahhhhh .. Rhubarb crumble and custard !!!!!
Rosemary