RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Michelle Family on Friday 02 March 12 10:06 GMT (UK)
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Hi All,
Would I be able to request a death look up please for Thomas Brown. He was born in Liverpool UK act 1827 to John Brown a Mariner born act 1795 and Mary Jane Brown born 1795 and listed as a Furniture broker on the 1851 Census.
Thomas immigrated to Australia (unsure when) and married Annie Gee Potts at Ballarat in Aug 1852.
Thomas was a Station, printer, publisher along with his brother William Maxwell Brown, who died at Liverpool asylum, Sydney Australia in 1886.
Thomas's wife Annie, died at Wellington St Waterloo, Sydney 1881. I have a copy of her probate. They had one son, Arthur Ernest Brown born 1866 at Ballarat West.
I have spend a fair bit of money with NSW BDM and each time it is the wrong Thomas Brown.
I know he attempted suicide Dec 1874 while living at Sebastapol st Ballarat. I have attached The Argus newspaper notice.
I contacted the Geelong Hospital but they said the records for 1874 were lost so the only info I have is the newspaper notice. Thomas went on to Sydney where he continued as a printer and publisher. The last newspaper advertisement is in 1884 in Sydney about selling his business and then I can find no trace of him again. I would be very grateful if I could have some suggestions of where else to look.
Thank you
Michelle
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oops, I forgot to attach, sorry. Here it is. These are from The Argus December 1874.
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I know he attempted suicide Dec 1874 while living at Sebastapol st Ballarat. I have attached The Argus newspaper notice.
I contacted the Geelong Hospital but they said the records for 1874 were lost so the only info I have is the newspaper notice.
Michelle I am curious how know this is your Thomas BROWN? Perhaps there are some family stories?
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0koe/
Cando
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Ah I see you have now attached the snippets...I had linked one.
Cando
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Michelle how did you select which certificates to purchase?
Have you used a transcription agent?
Perhaps he died in an institution and there may be no identifying information anyway.
Sorry to sound negative but Thomas BROWN with parents John and Mary certainly doesn't make for easy research.
This one is would probably make things too easy :)
8124/1887
BROWN Thomas Age 60 years Died Liverpool
District Liverpool
Cando
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Apologies I didn't link the info about the transcriptions agents....but you may know about them anyway :)
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/howToTraceYouFamTree.htm#TranscriptionAgent
Cando
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Hi Cando,
Thanks for your reply.
The common name makes it very hard. I tried to narrow down Thomas's death by approximate year, occupation and the area he was last known to be. I have found the Newspaper death notices of his wife Annie, his son Arthur, His brother William Maxwell but absolutely nothing for Thomas. Arthur Ernest would have been alive when Thomas died so I can't understand why I can't find anything.
I have been researching my tree for about 8 years, on Mum and Dad's side and have many folders of B,D,M certs, census, Newspaper notices, photos, WWI & WWII service records, electoral roll etc. I have also been lucky enough to have descendants read the various advertisements in newspapers which has helped a great deal.
I have checked all over Australia for Thomas's death and I'm now thinking he may have gone back to England. There was also family in San Fran. USA.
No, I didn't know about the transcriptions agent to be honest. I will have a read through. Thank you for the information and link.
I think I do have that cert you refer to below in 1887 but will have to go through my file of Wrong Thomas Brown certs and let you know ::)
Regards,
Michelle
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I suggest you make a search such as this
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/result?q&exactPhrase=Thomas+Brown&anyWords¬Words&l-textSearchScope=*ignore*|*ignore*&fromdd=01&frommm=01&fromyyyy=1880&todd=01&tomm=01&toyyyy=1900&l-word=*ignore*|*ignore*&sortby&s=40
and exhaustively consider each one.
Your arthur ernest brown apparently died in NSW in 1939, I assume you know that. The fact that his parents names are stated in the index is usually a good indication that he wasn't an only child who was the last of his line.
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Thanks for the information Eregil_gene,
I have spent many many hours searching Trove, and along the way found lots of Articles, Advertisments and personal notices for Thomas and family but still no death.
I have the birth, death and marriage certificates for Arthur Ernest, for are right about siblings, brother Leslie Thomas and Emma Gee Jones (nee Brown).
I have attached Arthur's birth and marriage certs and will post another with death and Thomas and Annie Gee Potts marriage certs. Hopefully I have missed a vital piece of information which you could kindly point out to me.
I have the 1841 census when Thomas was still in Liverpool UK with his parents...His father John Brown, Mariner is a whole new headache.
Funny thing is I have progressed further with nearly every other surname other than my own surname ::)
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I have a copy of Annie Gee Brown's Probate but must admit I don't understand what most of it means. There are 2 other men mentioned in the Probate, William Shaw, who at the time was in business with Thomas with a printing and publishing company. The other man William Mason is a complete mystery. I can find no other reference to him in any other family document.
I would attach but its to big. I will try and spilt it up so I can attach.
Thank you
Michelle
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Hi
Just had a look at Annie Gee's death certificate and it doesn't tell us if Thomas is living or not, though it does not say deceased.
Cando can you have a look at it and make out the place of burial please. It looks like Necropolis Mount Kuirela? to me but I don't know my cemeteries very well.
mum mum
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Hope you dont mind me answering, I think she was buried at Rookwood, which is often discribed as the Necropolis, and the Undertaker is Kinsela.
I had a look at the Anglican Rookwood on line search and there is an Annie G Brown date of Internment 1 Jan 1881
BROWN ANNIE G 01-01-1881
Area AN Section F Row N/A Grave No. 0001230
I look on the Rookwood disk and there does not seem to be a record of a headstone.
Cass
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Thanks,
As I said, I don't know cemeteries very well and I was hoping someone might be able to find details of the grave.
mum mum
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I had another try and found the record of the grave number and have updated my post, I thought that maybe Thomas may be buried with her, and had a look on the Anglican site, there are 71 Thomas Browns, maybe an email to the Anglican Rookwood office to ask if there is anybody buried with Annie might find him
Cass
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There are a few odd dates here.
Date of death 31st Nov 1881
Date last seen by Doctor 30 Dec 1881
Date of Burial 01-01-1881??
mum mum
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hi
The fact that Annie paid probate may indicate that she was in partnership at the time with William Shaw not Thomas, very rare that a woman paid probate, unless she had a means of earning a living. What happened to her son, was he working in the family firm ?
Muss
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hi
The fact that Annie paid probate may indicate that she was in partnership at the time with William Shaw not Thomas, very rare that a woman paid probate, unless she had a means of earning a living. What happened to her son, was he working in the family firm ?
Muss
I notice that the NSW SRO's index for Deceased Estates has:
BROWN, AG with a d o d of 21 Dec 1881, and with duty paid 27 Feb 1882, and then under the remarks column it reads "No File. File now at ........ entry lists name as Annie Gee."
This suggests to me that the amount of duty paid (if any) on 27 Feb 1882 in respect of Annie's deceased estate has been taken into account when another (connected) estate was probated at some time after 27 Feb 1882.... Some times those files can be very difficult to read, but.... I think you would need to look at the File "Z00835" at the NSW SR (Reel 20/6977) to determine what (if any) of Annie's estate was subject to that probate. It could well be a private inheritance that was trusted to Annie for her lifetime, on condition it was passed on to her descendants, but that is simply speculations by me, without knowing much at all about that particular Mrs Brown. It could also, as Muss has suggested, be part of a commercial partnership. Yes, it was very rare for a female's Deceased Estate to need to be assessed for Duties.
Cheers, JM
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There are a few odd dates here.
Date of death 31st Nov 1881
Date last seen by Doctor 30 Dec 1881
Date of Burial 01-01-1881??
mum mum
Yes, absolutely odd and umm .... impossible for that d o d at least ! ..... Could it be 21 December 1881 for the d o d .... (see my post re NSW SRO Deceased Estate Files)
http://srwww.records.nsw.gov.au/indexes/searchform.aspx?id=15 (I hope this link works, )
Cheers, JM
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Hi
is this correct Thomas Brown ?
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/28381266?searchTerm=thomas brown & shaw &searchLimits=l-title=The+Sydney+Morning+Herald...%7Ctitleid%3A35|||fromyyyy=1882|||frommm|||fromdd|||toyyyy=1882|||tomm|||todd|||l-category=Advertising%7Ccategory%3AAdvertising
Muss
sorry link would not download
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Hi
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/13515236?searchTerm=thomas brown & shaw &searchLimits=l-title=The+Sydney+Morning+Herald...%7Ctitleid%3A35|||fromyyyy=1882|||frommm|||fromdd|||toyyyy=1882|||tomm|||todd|||l-category=Advertising%7Ccategory%3AAdvertising
so he was alive in 1882
Muss
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Two things that strike me as slightly odd.
Whether the marriage was at Ballarat or Melbourne. It would be kind of understandable for someone who didn't know where the actual marriage had taken place, but thought it was in Victoria, to say that it was at Melbourne. But since the apparent record actually exists, and it is specifically at Melbourne, then it seems strange to claim that it was at Ballarat.
The second thing that is odd, is that the informant on the death certificate is not the husband, nor indeed the son. Unless there is indication of a severe estrangement, this suggests to me that the husband was already dead.
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Hi
Address in 1882 - 270 Elizabeth st. is this address on any other information ?
Muss
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Hi
So Thomas Brown and William Shaw had been in partnership, which was dissolved, and it appears not to have been on friendly terms.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page1420046
Then in 1890 I found thomas Brown Engraver and Diesinker at 236 Pitt St in Sands Directory, does that sound like the same fellow?
mum mum
Thomaas Brown Engraver between 1890 and 1915, at 207 elizabeth St in 1895, 1898-1904 at 126 Pitt St, 1907 at 228 Pitt St. 1907-16 at 8 Rowe St. Still checking between 1916-20 when he is not there.
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There is a Thomas Brown in F 1096. Interred 18-11-'81. Now this could be in the same row and opposite. Just a guess, though.
Just re-read and this can't be him if he was still alive in '84. ::)
Jamjar
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Another, F 1252 30-10-1895
That's it 1880 to 1900.
Jamjar
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Sorry, jumped in too quickly, he is still at 8 Rowe St in 1920. The elizabeth St address in 1895 is close though. mum mum
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Do we know his parents' names?
Yes we do, John and Mary. ::)
Jamjar
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A possibility for the one at Rookwood:
7463/1895 BROWN THOMAS JOHN UNKNOWN SYDNEY
Jamjar
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Hi
If he was born in 1827, may not still be working in 1920
Muss
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I was thinking that as I was searching, would have been nice if Thomas Brown Engraver had closed up shop about 1910 or so. Bugger!
mum mum
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Hi All,
Thanks for all the post. I will try to answer some questions.
Annie' s father was Robert Potts who was a draper/lace manufacture at Swanston St Melbourne. He arrived after Annie from Nottingham Uk.
Thomas has signed Annies probate so he was alive. William Shaw was thee
business partner. Arthur Ernest was not mentioned at all on the probate.He was 15 when Annie died. His occupation is listed as carter on his marriage cert.
The probate in part says that William Shaw & William Mason are after payment for all and just debts well and truly worth in real and personal estate the sum of two hundred pounds. Also a statement by Thomas saying
the said goods if the dec is under thr value of two hundred pounds.
It was my mistake saying Thomas was marrried in Ballarat...it says melbourne, county of Bourke. I have contacted Rookwood and
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Roowood said to many Thomas Browns for them to look up.
Also I think it stange that Arthur Ernest was born 14 years after Thomas & Annie were married. I made a pdf doc with the various snippets mainly from the argus and will find it and post here soon.
Last address i found in Liverpool uk for Thomas is Finch street.
Also I found an ad with him selling a confectionary business. i think that was Jan 1884. Thomas has a nephew who ran or owned a confectionery business in victoria.
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Sorry, one more thing..i think the confectionary business was Castlereagh st or Pitt st sydney. Thomas brother William Maxwell died at Liverpool asylum From pththsis 1886. Thomas is not mention for the funeral notice.
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And this can't be him, why?
7463/1895 Thomas BROWN father JOHN and mother unknown SYDNEY
Jamjar
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William Maxwell Brown is buried with Annie G!
F 1231
Jamjar
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Arthur and Ada are at Rookwood. Arthur: 16 May 1939 age 72; Ada 31 March 1964; Leslie Thomas 25 July 1969 age 74
Headstone: My husband and the Masonic symbol. Section 7 Row 51 graves 3393 and 3394
Jamjar
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Awesome..thanks Jam jar. i didnt know annie and william were buried together. Maybe Thomas was sposed to be there..i wonder.
I have visited the grave of ada, arthur ernest, arthur edward and leslie. i will have to post the pics.
Thans again
Michelle