RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: VivienR on Thursday 01 March 12 16:59 GMT (UK)
-
I ordered the marriage certificate just to confirm what I thought I knew but apparently I might be wrong. ( doesn't happen very often but yes sometimes)
I know not to trust ages, names and places of birth on censuses, and ages on marriage certificates.
How often do you think that the groom's father would not be correct? In this case the groom's father listed had the same first name as the groom - could it have been an error done by whoever filled out the certificate - repeating the same name? Or possibly the groom did not want to own up to his father (dad ended up in the poor house)
Thanks for any light you can shed on this puzzle.
Vivien
-
Do you know what the father's first name was? If you know it was different to the grooms then it is quite possible that either the minister for a church wedding, or the registrar for a Register Office wedding, made a mistake when filling out the certificate.
Stan
-
Is it a photocopy of the original? Or one written/copied out by hand in the office as they do in some local register offices?
-
I have a copy of a marriage cert, bride's father - deceased (true), his occupation - paper merchant (untrue, he was an auction porter). This myth that she came from a wealthy family and married beneath her lasted 4 generations till I started researching..... :o. It is obvious from censuses and other evidence that she was VERY economical with the truth ::)
Pat
-
I have an ancestor called Henry whose father was definitely Andrew, yet on Henry's marriage cert (and parish marriage register) his father is recorded as Henry also. I think this must just be a clerical error.
On the other hand, do not be too quick to jump to that conclusion. Early in my research I thought, with good reason, that the father of one of my ancestors was Thomas. When I got her marriage cert it turns out her father was James, and I'd been tracing the wrong line for ages.
Alexander
-
A [coloured] photocopy marriage certificate from the GRO showed my great-great-grandfather's first name as Peter when it should have been Thomas. The typed certificate I got from the Warrington Registrar a few years later showed Thomas.
-
I have a couple of certificates with name errors which I believe to be clerical errors.
A birth cert where the fathers middle name was incorrect. It should have been James but put as John, the same as his child.
And a marriage cert where the fathers first and one of his middle names were totally different to what they where in reality.
And that's to say nothing about all those that have a made up fathers name!
-
My mother misplaced her birth certificate, and applied for a copy, so she could get a passport.
Nothing wrong there, except it came back as:
Forenames: Joyce Cicely
Sex: Boy!!!
So errors, happen all the time! ;D
-
I have one GRO certificate where the bride's and groom's addresses have been transposed. They married within 3 months of a census so I'm reasonably sure this is what happened.
-
In more recent times (although not as recent as all that ;D) my own father decided to call himself a different first name for his marriage to my mum. I knew it was definitely her. He only ever had one first name according to his registration and it wasn't that one.
Had I been looking in (say) Victorian times for a branch of the family ancestors where this happened I might never have found the marriage.
But all sorts of things happen.
-
I have one where the grooms name was John,he signed as John,but the vicar and therefore the GRO index has writtne him in as JAMES!
Every generation of that family had a John and then a George,we have no James's 8)
-
Well I guess I might be right after all.
I ordered the marriage record from the GRO - does that make it more official?
I think I might have to order his death certificate to see what information that has as far as parents go.
Thanks
Vivien
-
Do you have his birth certificate to see what this says his father's name is? :-\
-
IN answer to your original question ... it ain't necessarily so!
As well as all the other instances recorded here...
My favourite aunt was my Dad's youngest sister. We had her marriage certificate which showed her having the same parents my Dad had. But when I decided to get her birth certificate because I knew it would list all her older siblings and their ages (my dad was one of "11" and couldn't remember everyone's details correctly at that stage)...... we discovered that said aunt was actually his niece, having been born out of wedlock to his elder sister and her subsequent husband.
So the parents listed on her marriage certificate were actually her grandparents.
She may not have known the truth herself, at the time of her marriage.
A bit of a shock to her kids! And I had to be the one to tell them :D :D :D
Dawn M
-
Well I guess I might be right after all.
I ordered the marriage record from the GRO - does that make it more official?
I think I might have to order his death certificate to see what information that has as far as parents go.
Thanks
Vivien
The marriage certificate is the same no matter where you order it from.
The death cert will not have any information about his parents.
See here as to what it will show http://home.clara.net/dixons/Certificates/deaths.htm
Carol
-
The marriage certificate is the same no matter where you order it from.
In theory that is true, but not always in practice. I'm sure I'm not the only person who has certificates that differ slightly in the GRO copies from the local office copies. The registers at the local offices were copied quarterly and sent to the GRO. Therefore, GRO certificates were rewritten an extra time, and as whoever copied them out was only human, there are bound to be errors. The local register copies are a step closer to the original than the GRO copies.
Vivien, did they marry in a church? If so, it would be worth tracking down the parish register. It should in theory contain the exact same information, but for marriages in churches, the PR is the original source of any info on a GRO marriage certificate.
So there is a chance a mistake was made during the copying process from the parish register to the local register to the GRO register.
Alexander
-
The death cert will not have any information about his parents.
See here as to what it will show http://home.clara.net/dixons/Certificates/deaths.htm
That is true for England, Wales and Ireland death certs.
Australian ones have parents names if known and I believe Canadian ones might have the father's name (father's name is listed on the Ancestry Ontario death index images so I'm guessing its also on the actual cert, whether thats applies to all states I don't know). I don't have any US certs to know what details are included.
-
The death cert will not have any information about his parents.
See here as to what it will show http://home.clara.net/dixons/Certificates/deaths.htm
That is true for England, Wales and Ireland death certs.
Australian ones have parents names if known and I believe Canadian ones might have the father's name (father's name is listed on the Ancestry Ontario death index images so I'm guessing its also on the actual cert, whether thats applies to all states I don't know). I don't have any US certs to know what details are included.
But as the OP had ordered it from the GRO I was presuming that we ARE talking about an English one here ;D
-
The marriage certificate is the same no matter where you order it from.
In theory that is true, but not always in practice. I'm sure I'm not the only person who has certificates that differ slightly in the GRO copies from the local office copies. The registers at the local offices were copied quarterly and sent to the GRO. Therefore, GRO certificates were rewritten an extra time, and as whoever copied them out was only human, there are bound to be errors. The local register copies are a step closer to the original than the GRO copies.
Vivien, did they marry in a church? If so, it would be worth tracking down the parish register. It should in theory contain the exact same information, but for marriages in churches, the PR is the original source of any info on a GRO marriage certificate.
So there is a chance a mistake was made during the copying process from the parish register to the local register to the GRO register.
Alexander
I have a curious case of sending for a cert and assuming it was wrong as father's first name was wrong. Later looked up a church marriage record for what I thought might be someone else in same family. Got half-way through making notes then gave up as also wrong father's name and, only when I got home, realised I had two copies of same marriage but with different first names for groom. Now think that could be correct marriage but, someone having pointed out error in church register, civil copy was made with wrong name "corrected" but how to prove that?!!
-
The death cert will not have any information about his parents.
See here as to what it will show http://home.clara.net/dixons/Certificates/deaths.htm
That is true for England, Wales and Ireland death certs.
Australian ones have parents names if known and I believe Canadian ones might have the father's name (father's name is listed on the Ancestry Ontario death index images so I'm guessing its also on the actual cert, whether thats applies to all states I don't know). I don't have any US certs to know what details are included.
But as the OP had ordered it from the GRO I was presuming that we ARE talking about an English one here ;D
The MARRIAGE cert was from the GRO, but the OP didn't say where she was going to get the death cert from ;D
-
Touche ( I don't have an accent thingy to put over the E) ;D
-
Carol
Try holding down the Alt key and entering the number 0233 - é
For others try this website:
http://tlt.its.psu.edu/suggestions/international/bylanguage/french.html
Gillg
-
Thanks Gill..................... ;D
-
I got a GRO marriage cert back two weeks ago for a line I was just trying to finish off and was surprised to see both the father's name wrong (Frank instead of John) and listing him as deceased.
After much reconsidering and the ordering of other certs, I have come to the conclusion he must have been trying to disown his childhood, since his father had been a well known drunk. Surprising since most people seem to own up to things on the official docs which don't come out anywhere else.
Luckily the death cert gives date of birth and also had his wife as informant.
-
The marriage certs from the GRO appear to be photocopies of originals.
Famililiar with both my mother and grandmother's handwriting, the signatures on their GRO copied marriage certiicates are definitely theirs.
Would it perhaps be that a copy was signed at the marriage especially for forwarding to the GRO, and that this is the copy that is copied (as it were) to send out now.
-
My ancestor put an extra first name for his father on his 1856 marriage cert. His slightly older brother had that exact name. Their father was just George.
-
The marriage certs from the GRO appear to be photocopies of originals.
Familiar with both my mother and grandmother's handwriting, the signatures on their GRO copied marriage certificates are definitely theirs.
Would it perhaps be that a copy was signed at the marriage especially for forwarding to the GRO, and that this is the copy that is copied (as it were) to send out now.
I believe that is wrong (but I stand to be corrected).
What the GRO certificates are is copies of the quarterly returns submitted to the GRO by the registrars. These are entries written out again and are not photocopies of the original register.
Indeed when i ordered one marriage certificate from the GRO they rang me up to say the copy they had was not signed and so they would check with the original held with the register ie firmly establishing that it was not a photocopy of the original
Whether a different system is in place for more modern certificates (eg within the last 20 years or so) I do not know
-
As davidft says the GRO have no access to the original certificates, they have the quarterly returns which are copies made by the registrar.
Stan
-
Whether a different system is in place for more modern certificates (eg within the last 20 years or so) I do not know
Quarterly returns are still sent in to the GRO, but the details are input directly to a computer. "The Guidebook for The Clergy" (2011) states under "Quarterly Certified Copies"
6.3 As the certified copy will be keyed by staff at GRO onto a computer to complete the national record of of registrations, and for the production of certificates, it is vital that your handwriting is clear and legible. Surnames should be written in block capitals.
Stan
-
[quote But when I decided to get her birth certificate because I knew it would list all her older siblings and their ages
Wow I wish UK birth certs listed names of siblings etc..... what a help that would be.
My (born out of Wedlock) gt.gramps stated a fathers name and occupation on his marriage cert... and I know its a fib....!?!?
:)
;D
xin
-
Yes, Xinia, it is a great help.
But get this - around 1990 I was in Mexico and got to see someone's birth certificate.
It listed not only the parents but both sets of grandparents!!
My OH says I turned green with envy!
Dawn M
-
Information on the marriage( regarding fathers) are only what that bride or groom said who those persons were.
I have illegitimate people making up a father, I also have step children naming the stepfather as their father.
Marriage records, are really not worth any hoots when it comes down to facts.
Kind regards
-
So now I know that I can't trust the information on a marriage certificate I am interested in knowing what the rest of you think.
Robert England was bapt Oct 20 1811 in Shepton Beauchamp, Somerset, parents Thomas and Susannah England.
Robert England married Elizabeth Epton or Hepton 30 April 1837 Lopen Somerset. No parents listed.
Elizabeth died and Robert remarried Louise Brooks Rowsell Dec 1877. ( This is the marriage cert I ordered - father of groom on the certificate is listed as Robert.)
Robert and his family are in the 1841, 51, 61,71 and 81 censuses living in Lopen. Robert died 1887 age 72.
So my question to you - is the Robert England who married Elizabeth and then Louisa also the Robert England born to Thomas and Susannah England.
The witness to Robert's first marriage is a James England. Thomas and Susannah also had a son James.
But - James left a huge estate and he did not name Robert or any of his descendants in his will - he also did not name another of his brothers in his will although he did name three of his other siblings and their descendants in the will.
And can I ask what is an OP?
Regards
Vivien
-
I'll answer the easy bit ;D
An OP stands for the Original Poster (of the thread or query)
-
This discussion, along with my own collection of known-to-be-wrong examples, makes me wonder about the attitude of those who won't accept information unless it is "confirmed" by certificates.
Didy
-
So now I know that I can't trust the information on a marriage certificate I am interested in knowing what the rest of you think.
Robert England was bapt Oct 20 1811 in Shepton Beauchamp, Somerset, parents Thomas and Susannah England.
Robert England married Elizabeth Epton or Hepton 30 April 1837 Lopen Somerset. No parents listed.
Elizabeth died and Robert remarried Louise Brooks Rowsell Dec 1877. ( This is the marriage cert I ordered - father of groom on the certificate is listed as Robert.)
Robert and his family are in the 1841, 51, 61,71 and 81 censuses living in Lopen. Robert died 1887 age 72.
So my question to you - is the Robert England who married Elizabeth and then Louisa also the Robert England born to Thomas and Susannah England.
The witness to Robert's first marriage is a James England. Thomas and Susannah also had a son James.
But - James left a huge estate and he did not name Robert or any of his descendants in his will - he also did not name another of his brothers in his will although he did name three of his other siblings and their descendants in the will.
And can I ask what is an OP?
Regards
Vivien
Hi
I think there are 2 Roberts
Your Robert consistently gives his birth as c 1816 and birthplace as Lopen. In 1841 where ages are rounded down he is 20 ie 20-25 so could have been born 1816-1821. The Robert son of Thomas and Susannah would have been born 1811 or before. There is another Robert born c1811 who gives his birthplace in 1851 as South Petherton who would fit the Robert son of Thomas and Susannah. Also in Lopen 1841 there is a Robert age 40 ie 40-45 who could be your Robert's father as named on the marriage certificate.
I would want to look into this more
Jan ;)
-
My gt Uncle's wife died when the children were very young. When his daughter married; the name of her mother was actually the stepmother. Another instance was in the very bottom of the Marriage registration of my son n law's side; a notation was made with the gtgtgrandmother's real birth name(she was married in her grandparents surname)She had been adopted at age 4 it said with her siblings. Now that was a real find! So cheers for the registarions having extra notations. So Eyes Wide Open.....