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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Glamorganshire => Topic started by: syljun on Thursday 01 March 12 15:30 GMT (UK)
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I am still having great difficulty in finding Uncle - William Thomas Davies b.1888/90.
Found a death on Freebmd which may be his Sept.Qtr 1946 I am only going by age given as 56 which is nearest to birth. My question is what Newspaper would most likely have an Obituary in Pontypridd if of course one was published.
Wrong Marr. Cert received this morning, great disappointment once again so trying another way to obtain any info I can to put this matter to rest. have driven me mad for years.
William Thomas Davies b. 1888, Barry, Glamorgan. 1911 Census living at 84 Bonvilston Road,Pontypridd, Coal Miner Hewer Age 21 - living as Boarder with Connor family.
He was actually born 23rd Sept. 1888. I have Copy B/Cert.
Any help greatly appreciated. Have spent hours searching Electoral Rolls.
Thanks,
Syljun
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What other information do you have about W T Davies? Do you know if he married, or who his parents were?
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Hello welsh angel :)
Syljun has no info about WTD after 1911 or whether he married, so has started various threads to try to eliminate him from possible marriages and/or deaths.
Best Wishes
Morgan
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Has he tried the Military records or shipping records? He may have died in the First World War, or emigrated, as many of in my family did.
I would ask the question, why was WTD never talked about in family circles? Was there a family scandal and WTD was bannished from the family,and therefore, moved to another part of the country, or as stated above, emigrated? All these need to be looked into.
There are many death records for WTDs whose ages are correct for them being born around 1888.
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Thanks welsh angel and morganllan,
I have tried Military Records - guess how many there are - especially if he dropped his first name of William but that may have been by Informant on Census, perhaps he was known as Thomas to them.
Have also checked War Memorials for Home Town of Barry and also Pontypridd.
After checking my notes from Glamorgan Archives (what a nightmare getting there) I have today gone for broke and ordered three Certs. 1 Marr (again) 1 Death and one for a child which may be his. Watch this space! Also checked Newspapers in Cardiff Library in case his Mother had Obituary and he attended funeral. No Obituary found.
I feel I cannot do any more so will give up if nothing connects.
P.S. Also rejoined Genes after many years lapsing. No luck, must be mad.
As to family - I never heard Mother speak of him and unfortunately no-one left has any info.
Cannot think there would be a scandal. Thanks for your time and interest. Would still like to know Newspapers and where possible sighting can be made for 1946.
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Was 1 of your certificates this 1?
Thomas Davies age 83 born 23rd Sept 1888
died 1972 (Apr-Jun quarter)
East Glamorgan 8b volume page 1332
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Hi,
East Glamorgan is now of course Reg.Dis.for Barry.
Have investigated several William and Thomas from Barry. Myself born and bred in Barry until leaving 1955 when married I would have known Uncle as I knew the Aunts. He did not attend my Mother's funeral in 1960 and have checked her Obituary so am concentrating on Pontypridd.
Have switched back to William Thomas Davies and now going on hunches. He may well have enlisted in 1st World War and survived going back to Pontypridd as opposed to home of Barry. Have found a marr. 1920 so going on hunches.
Thanks you for your interest, any help and suggestions welcome. You may have guessed at my age so time is running out and getting desperate.
Regards,
Syljun
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Hi syljun
I've been doing a little research myself, into your family history, to see if I can get some clues as to what may have happened to your WTD. I can see that WTD would have only been around 5 years of age, when his dad died, in 1893. Mary Jane also had another baby, not long before her first husband died. I can also see that WTD isn't living with his mother, her husband -Alfred-, or his siblings, in 1901. Or he could be spending the night with a relative or friend. Mary Jane also has a child with Alfred. So, the questions I am asking myself is:
Where was WTD on the 1901 census
With Mary Jane having young children at the time of her first husband's death, did she concentrate on looking after a very young baby, and the older children, and leaving WTD to go and live with a relative? Maybe there are clues in the 1901 and 1911 census
I can also see that WTD's mother was born, and spent much of her youth, in Staffordshire. Could it be that she still had relatives there, and WTD went to that part of the country?
I am fascinated to discover what happened to WTD. I will keep looking to see what I can come up with, but in the meantime, keep me posted of how your search is going.
Happy hunting, and good luck!
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Thanks welsh_angel,
1901 Census young William is staying with Grandmother Elizabeth Stringer and Aunt and Uncle - Thomas and Jane Evans at 27 Everard St. Barry. the last baby born to William and Mary Jane Davies is Rhoda (my mother). Their Father died age 34 so Mary Jane remarried Alfred Owen and had dau.Edith.
Alfred died 1904.
After going over Electoral notes I realise that the votes for age 21 did not come into force until 1818 when the men came back from war.
I have picked up on a William Thomas Davies living at 13 Dewi St, Pontypridd on the 1920 Spring Electoral Roll. (seems to be on his own no-one else mentioned) There is a marr. Dec.1920 WTD and Margaret E.Davies and a birth of a Rhoda Davies 1923.
Going on hunches now (last chance)
Thanks for your interest, will let you know when receive Certs.
Best wishes,
Syljun
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Hi, Think I will have to give up on William Thomas Davies as the three Certs arrived and all wrong. Have spent too much money over years with this man.
There are several other marriages and one could be his but rather feel down about it at moment. Too many wrong Certs. which is proving expensive.
The Electoral roll throws up a William Thomas Davies living at 13 Dewi St, Pontypridd - 1920. Seems to be on his own but 1937 & 1938 at 97 Bonvilston Road there are William Davies and Elizabeth Margaret Davies so unless someone knows of him I cannot see me get any further which is a pity. Thanks for your interest, and any help given. Syljun
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So sorry to hear that none of the certificates proved to be the missing link to WTD :( Hopefully one day someone will read this post and reply with information, so keep your RC membership up to date so that you will receive the notification!
Out of interest, why did you rule out the certificate I posted previously? You could specify the DOB of 23/09/1888 so that they will only send the cert if it matches.
Thomas Davies age 83 born 23rd Sept 1888
died 1972 (Apr-Jun quarter)
East Glamorgan 8b volume page 1332
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I'm so sorry to hear that you've purchased certificates, but turned out not to be your WTD. But I have a suggestion. I have found, in the past, that people working in local registry offices have been more than helpful. While they won't tell you what IS on a certificate, they will tell you who is NOT on there. I know that a death certificate is more complicated, as it only gives the person who has died, where they died, and who registered the death. And as you don't know any of this information, I can't see where you go from here.
Did he change his name?
Do you have any idea where WTD died? I'll go back to my original suggestions, and ask if you have looked for sailing records for him? I may be asking the obvious, but sometimes it's worth going back to the drawing board, and go over old ground.
All the best with your search. I'm sure your WTD WILL turn up eventually.
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Thanks Morganllan and welsh_angel
The reason I discounted the death in 1872 is because I feel sure I would have myself known him or heard about him from Mother who died 1960.
If there was a secret about him I am sure one of my siblings would have known being the youngest of eleven. Unfortunately the elder sisters are no longer here to ask who would have known. Thanks for your interest. On the backburner again I'm afraid.
Best wishes,
Syljun
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Sorry 1972.
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Hi syljun
There's one last question I would like to ask you. Why would your mum not know about a brother if he had died in 1946, but would know about him if he'd died in 1972? I believe your mum would have been approx 40 years of age in 1946?
I think the suggestion by one of the admins is an excellent suggestion. After all, you know the date of birth of your WTD, and the 1972 death in East Glamorgan, looks as if it fits the mold.
I know one can get disheartened when one spends money on certificates and other information, only to discover it's not about the person you are reseaching, but all too often, we can put something in our minds, and we won't falter from that preconceived idea.
Maybe, just maybe, the 1972 death is the final piece of the jigsaw
Once again, good luck!
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Hi welsh_lady and Morganllan,
Thanks for your help and suggestions. I will look again at the death of Thomas Davies 1972. May I ask where you got the exact birth info. from.
I have researched a few of same name in Barry from electoral rolls and death of one 1st World War.I hope the birth date is not just a coincidence.
The problem of contacting Register Office is that I need some concrete evidence. I do not know if he was married or where he was actually living. East Glamorgan is not Pontypridd reg.Dis. but perhaps he retired back to Vale of Glamorgan. At least if I do send for cert. it's only another £9.25. I could have papered a room with all the wrong Certs for him and others. I recently shredded 33. Only have 4 now to go. (Husband started to query cost). Will let you know outcome.
Best wishes and thanks for help, always grateful.
Syljun
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Just to add to above I have discovered from East Glam Reg.Dist. that parts of Pontypridd were taken over by East. Glam so perhaps Thomas moved out of Pontypridd itself to outlying district. Could not find Death entry on Freebmd or FindMyPast so will take a chance and send for D/Cert.
Syljun
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Hi syljun
The original index entry gives the exact date of birth.
I'll see if I can find it, and get back to you
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Hi syljun
I am now looking at the entry for a Thomas Davies, and this is exactly what it says:
April-May-June 1972
Davies:
Thomas 23 Sept 1888 E Glamorgan 8b 1332
END
The informant may have known Thomas's date of birth, but unlikely to have ever seen his birth certicate, for whatever reason.
I have been doing family history, and have taught it, long before we had the internet, so I have travelled all over the country, in early years, and was often surprised at what I found. Meeting relatives, you never knew existed, and them them telling you things, that you'd never get through other sources.
Without boring you too much, with the final details, I traced a brother of my darling grandfather. Grampa, nor anyone else in the family knew. Not ONE of the family knew about it, until I rooted around in the past, and "dug it up". My grandfather's brother was 92 when I met him, but unfortunately, grampa had long since gone on to greener pastures, as grampa was 23 when his brother was born.
So, the moral of the story, is, keep an open mind, because you never know what you may find.
Maybe there is a secret in your family, that they wanted hidden. But, fortunately for us, who noses around in the past, it makes the search so much more interesting.
Happy hunting
I am really hoping that this is is the one to help solve the mystery
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Hi welsh_angel,
Thank you for your encouragement and acknowledge there may well be a secret. I did scout around and found the full entry on Genes. Surprising that some of web-sites do not have all info. The exact date of birth is I believe quite new on Death certs as opposed to just age that for most Informants was guesswork.
I spoke to a cousin of 84yrs a little while ago and he also said his Mother had never spoken of a brother.
Oh I wish I had asked questions when I was younger but wasn't interested in Family history and now I 'm an addict.
Nice to know you met your Grandpa's brother. Hope you got a photo. I would love to have more of my Ancestors. Have sent for D/Cert so will have to curb impatience.
Thank you once again.I shall be shouting "EUREKA" if I can make a connection. I will be forever grateful to Morganllan for finding entry.
Best wishes, Syljun
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.... I could have papered a room with all the wrong Certs for him and others. I recently shredded 33. Only have 4 now to go...
Noooooo! Please don't shred them. You can offer them to other Rootschatters on the Unwanted DH Documents & Artefacts Board:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,153.0.html
Alternatively you can offer them through family history societies or magazines. They may be useful to someone else.
I will keep my fingers crossed that you receive the correct certificate soon :D
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Hi, Yes I did make a list and offered them a few years ago on one web-site. so long ago I cannot remember but no-one wanted any of them so recently did a clearing out.
The few I have now I will.
syljun
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Just to let you know I am back to square one with William Thomas Davies.
Wrong Death Cert. but same birth date. Thanks for all your help. Syljun
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Hi syljun
I'm so sorry to hear that you still haven't found your WTD. I will keep looking, periodically, for you, to see what I can come up with, but the difficulty for me is I don't know what ground you've covered over the years, and I don't want to spend time going over what you've already eliminated. However, can you answer a few questions for me, that will make it easier for me to know what path to go down?
Firstly, how do you know that the last death certificate wasn't your WTD if the only thing you know about him is his date of birth, which appears to have been on the last certificate? What was it about that certificated that told you it wasn't your WTD?
Secondly, have you followed all the leads for a death of William Thomas Davies immediately after the taking of the 1911 census? For example, I can see that a William T Davies b abt 1889 died in the first quarter of 1911. I know that this can't be your WTD as the 1911 census was taken 2/3 April of that year.
I really want you to solve this mystery, but from experience, and MANY people in my family tree, people often get airbrushed out of the family for many, many different reasons. A few in my tree even changed their surnames, for example, my husband's grandmother had 8 children, but on my husband's mother's birth certificate my husband's grandmother, surname is Hopkins. Out of the 8 births, this is the only time she's put Hopkins. On all the others it's a different surname. My husband knew nothing whatsoever about his grandmother, not even her name, intil I, OF COURSE started digging around in the past, and discovered that his grandmother had married her first cousin, and it wasn't accepted by the rest of her family. This is just an example, and I am sure that the mystery of your WTD will come as a great surprise when you eventually find out what happened to him. And I am sure you will find him with just a little more digging.
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Hello welsh_angel,
Thank you so much for your encouragement. The Birthplace and Father's name is incorrect and it was a brother who registered death. I have accounted for his siblings and actually knew three of them and found death of brother.
If you do in time find anything I would be extremley grateful but nothing is known, only what was on 1911 Census. I shall be a bit quiet on computer for a little while as I have had bad news. My husband was suddenly taken ill and did not recover. I am having five minutes to myself right now and addicted to family history as I am curious as to what is going on. Please do not think I am ignoring you or being impolite if I do not answer straight away if you do find anything. WTD has certainly had me running around for a long time perhaps one day everything will turn out to be simple. Thanks again for your interest and help. Regards, Syljun
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Dear syljun, I am so sorry to hear about your husband, It's so difficult to find the right words to say to someone who has just lost a loved one. I will keep searching to see what I can find, but please don't feel compelled to answer this post.You take all the time you need.
Regards
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Hello Syljun
I am also very sorry to hear about your husband. Be brave and take strength from your happy memories of your loved one. :-* Rootschat will be here when you are ready to resume the search for the elusive WTD.
Kindest Regards
Morgan
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Have been following this thread and am so sorry to hear your news.
Things will improve for you but it takes time.......
Abiam2
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Thanks all for your kind words. Have been in limbo for a while, could not believe what happened so suddenly.
Will try again to search for WTD but feel it a hopeless cause with such a common name. Have trawled web-sites looking to see if I could find any records of Miners employment but cannot find anything. Any ideas? I only have 1911 Census to go on. Syljun
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Hi Syljun :)
Just wondering how did you connect the 1911 census Thomas Davies, age 21, at 84 Bonvilston Road,Pontypridd, with your WTD? I can see him as William Davies, age 12, with his Grandmother in Barry in 1901.
Best Wishes
Morgan
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Hi morganllan, I was given info on 1911 Census by another researcher which was only clue as to what happened to WTD. I researched Connor family and found they also had lived in Barry quite close to Davies family. My thinking was that William (Thomas) probably went to School with Charles Connor or at least knew him for him to be a lodger with Charles at Pontypridd.
As the informant on 1911 Census knew William as Thomas did he keep to Thomas or resort back to William that's the problem.
I have checked Electoral Rolls but several in both names in Pontypridd which is a nightmare.
Also checked Barry Newspapers for Obituary of his Mother's death 1937 but did not find one. Suggested he may have attended.
Checking Freebmnd there are two likely death candidates with Thomas - March 1930 -Sept 1935.
William - Dec.1949. All Pontypridd registrations. I have no way of knowing short of buying every Cert. but wondered if anyone knew of the papers for Pontypridd which perhaps had Obits of these deaths.
I certainly could do with some help for closure, perhaps will never know but sometimes a clue does show up so will keep trying. Your help and suggestions are invaluable, thank you. syljun
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Good to see you back on the Forum, syljun. I know that things are very raw at this early stage into losing a loved one, but time IS a great healer, and memories are precious and can't be taken way, no matter what.
As for your WTD, I have had a few thoughts about him, when I have tried to put the pieces of the jigsaw together. I can see from the 1901 Census, that WTD was living with his grandmother and not his mother. Again, in the 1911 Census, you believe he’s a boarder with the Connors. This situation in itself, raises a few questions. When you put this information with the lack of any family knowledge of him, I ask myself the question, why was he never with his mother? This is why I believe there may be some dark secret. So, what happened to WTD after 1901 (and maybe 1911)?? I am going to go through all the WTD WD,TD I can to see if something happened between 1901 when you are definite you have the correct WTD and 1911, and take it from there. We WILL crack this mystery, of that I am certain.
Best wishes
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I'm going back to the drawing board on this reseach, so syljun, I want you to tell me if I am on the right track.
I have gone back to the 1861 census for the stringer family, and I will work forward from there. There will be a few questions I will probably need answering, to make sure I am on the right track. Here goes:
In 1861, and living in Kinfare, Staffordshire, I have these people:
THOMAS STRINGER 32
ELIZABETH STRINGER 34
WILLIAM STRINGER 11
ELIZABETH STRINGER 9
ANN STRINGER 7
JANE STRINGER 4
EDNA STRINGER 2
MARY J STRINGER 2 (Is this Mary your grandmother, and are Edna and Mary J twins?)
In 1971 all the above are living in Caldicot. Thomas is working in the ironworks, and Edna has now become Edith. There are also two lodgers living in the house. Other than these few changes, everything is as the 1861 census.
Now to 1881. This appears to be interesting. The family is still in Caldicot, but Thomas is now a general labourer. Elizabeth is 54 years of age. William the son, is 31 and "unmarried", but there's a "grandson" Thomas Stringer, age 1. This child must be one of Elizabeth's daughters as Elizabeth appears to only have had the one son, and he's unmarried. So, whose son is this? Is it Mary J's or Jane's. Edith/Edna isn't on this census, but there's a grandson, John Garvey. Did Edith/Edna marry a Garvey? What happened to Thomas Stringer? He would only have been 8/9 years older than WTD, and if Thomas Stringer is Mary J's illegitimate son, maybe it would be worth pursuing what happened to Thomas Stringer. Maybe WTD went to live with him.
If you can let me know if I am on the right track, I can then continue to work forward, to try and solve the mystery of what happened to WTD.
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Don't know if this will help
1881. This appears to be interesting. The family is still in Caldicot
Thomas is now a general labourer. Elizabeth is 54 years of age. William the son, is 31 and "unmarried",
there's a "grandson" Thomas Stringer, age 1.
So, whose son is this?
1 Apr 1881 Thomas James STRINGER mother Jane Caldicot
Now to 1881. This appears to be interesting. The family is still in Caldicot, but Thomas is now a general labourer. Elizabeth is 54 years of age. William the son, is 31 and "unmarried",
but but there's a grandson, John Garvey.
Did Edith/Edna marry a Garvey?
FreeBMD
Sep 1871 Chepstow
Elizabeth Stringer
John Garvey
Marriage after Banns both otp, both single, & both made their mark X
9 Jul 1871
James Gawey 22 Wireworker father James Gawey, Moulder
Elizabeth Stringer 20 father Thomas Stringer lab
Wit: Charles Jones & Hariett Jones
1881 RG11; Piece: 2522; Folio: 121; Page: 32
John Garvey 34 Stourbridge occ Puddler
Elizabeth 28 Kniver Staffordshire
Elizabeth 9 Calidcott
William 2 Cinderford
6 Sep 1871 Elizabeth GARVEY parents John Elizabeth Caldicot Wireworker
5 Jun 1875 John Thomas GARVEY parents John & Elizabeth Caldicot Wireworker
28 Dec 1877 William George GARVEY parents John & Elizabeth Cwmbran Wireworker
There were also these STRINGER baptisms Calidcot
11 Jun 1883 Ernest STRINGER Mary Jane Caldicot Charwoman (no father's name given)
29 Nov 1884 Ada STRINGER parents William & Mary Caldicot Miner
18 Mar 1887 Mabel Annie STRINGER parents William & Mary Caldicot Lab Bn: 3 Dec 1886
15 Feb 1889 Alice Mary Stringer parents William & Mary Caldicot Labourer
FreeBMD Dec 1882 Chepstow
William Stringer
Mary Winter
Marriage after Banns 30 Oct 1882 both single & OTP
Wm Stringer 30 Lab. father Thos lab
Mary Winter 20 f Jas Shepherd
Wits Thos & Susannah Dowler
1901 RG12; Piece: 4335; Folio: 40; Page: 27 - Caldicot
William Stringer Head 40 Lab Iron Works Kniver? Staffs
Mary Wife 30, William 10, Charles 8, Ada 6, Mable 4, Alice 2 Elizabeth, All born Caldicot
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Thanks Ladyhawk, but I believe I have found Thomas Stringer's birth entry. He was born in 1880 in the second quarter, and only had the one name. However, after 1881, I can't find Thomas Stringer anywhere. There is a Thomas Stringer who sailed to Canada, but as I don't have access to the records, I have no way of knowing if this is him. Also, there are a few William Thomas Davies, from Wales, who also sailed to Canada. Again, I have no way of knowing if this the elusive WTD. But I live in hope.
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Hi, Gosh you have all been busy, thanks for your time.
Firstly most of info. correct.
Thomas born 1880 died - son of Jane.
Elizabeth married John Garvey.
Mary Jane and Edith are twins.
Edith married John Jones and when John died she married his brother William. (not sure if that was legal at the time)
William Stringer married Mary Winter 1882 (she also had illegitimate son born in Workhouse)
Mary Jane worked in pub in Caldicot and also had illegitimate son Ernest who took the name of Davies when Mother married William Davies.
As for WTD being with Grandmother on 1901 Census it was not unusual and not necessarily living permanently just staying for a night. I have had several grandchildren with Grandparents and it is very helpful to confirm connection to family members. 1901 Census has WTD's four sisters and Ernest living at home with Mother and Step-father living at 8 Dovedale Street, Barry, Glamorgan. Stepfather Alfred Owen age 39 (says born Lancs but was actually born Dublin and died in Bridgend Asylum 1904).
Thanks again, Syljun
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Anyone with access to military records. When I put in William Thomas Davies born Barry Glamorgan one came up as Casualty in 1st World War. I know of only a William Davies born Barry of Woodland Road who is not my Uncle William but also no William Thomas Davies has to my knowledge been honoured on any Memorial in Barry. Would this be a red herring me putting Barry.
Can anyone help by checking William Thomas Davies of South Wales Borderers. Thanks for any help anyone can give. Syljun
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This is all I can find on a W T Davies:
DAVIES, W T
Rank:Lieutenant
Date of Death:13/04/1918
Age:25
Regiment/Service:South Wales Borderers
6th Bn.
Grave ReferenceSp. Mem. A. 1.
CemeteryLOCRE HOSPICE CEMETERY
Additional Information:
Son of Mary Davies, of 26, Triangle, Mountain Ash, Glam, and the late William Davies.
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Thanks welsh_angel, I seem to have exhausted this enquiry. WTD seems to have vanished into thin air or been taken by aliens. Thank you for your time. syljun
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Hi syljun
I would start thinking about the unthinkable now. For example, people don't disappear into thin air. I am now of the opinion that WTD was airbrushed out of the family. So, what is it he could have done? Was he a ww1 deserter? Did he commit a crime that the family couldn't deal with? Did he leave the country under a cloud? All these questions need to be looked into and eliminated.
I have every confidence that you will find out what happened to WTD, and in the meantime, I will continue to look periodically
Best wishes
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Thanks welsh_angel, You may well be right. It's a pity I cannot find out which Mine he worked at to get a start. if anything turns up will let you know. Best wishes, syljun
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Hope I am not being a nuisance but once again have gone through Freebmd - Deaths from 1911 - 1940 for Pontypridd. there is one for a William Davies Age 39 - June 1928. Anyone know what papers Pontypridd would have an obituary if there was one. Thought I would try this in case there was a clue, before sending for D/Cert. getting expensive. It's either that or give up entirely. Thanks for your time. Syljun
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Another wrong Death Cert. for WTD in 1928. Will have to give it a rest. Nearly £50 spent on wrong Certs. in a few weeks. Economic climate not at its best. If anyone has any suggestions where to go next I would be very grateful. This man does not want to be found. My thanks to everyone who has helped, always open to ideas. Syljun
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..... Anyone know what papers Pontypridd would have an obituary if there was one. Thought I would try this in case there was a clue, before sending for D/Cert. getting expensive. It's either that or give up entirely....
Hi Syljun,
Apologies if you already know this but Pontypridd library has a number of old newpapers in its Family History area. Don't know if any would include obituaries but it may be worth contacting them?
Telephone: (01443) 486850
e-mail: Pontypridd.Library*AT*rhondda-cynon-taff.gov.uk
Good luck,
Deirdre