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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Monmouthshire => Wales => Monmouthshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: charwatkin on Tuesday 28 February 12 18:26 GMT (UK)
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Looking for help with marriage record for
John Watkins b. about 1828 in Llantillo Crosseney and
Elizabeth Sykes (Sikes) b about 1836 in Herefordshire. (Father Henry Sykes)
On the Llanbedr, Crickhowell 1861 census they are next door to her father, Henry Sykes. Their eldest son, Alfred was born about 1857. Am guessing marriage would be about 1856-7.
Their son, Thomas was my husband's great grand dad - shown on my profile.
Thanks in advance!
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John Watkins june qtr 1857 Monmouth vol 11a pg 53 with Elizabeth Syke on the same page
Monmouth registration district covered Llantillio Crossenny
http://www.ukbmd.org.uk/genuki/reg/districts/monmouth.html
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marriage was in the parish church of Llantilio Crosseny, but there's no father's name shown for John
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~monfamilies/llancrossennyprt.htm
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Thank you for the information and resources!
Off to next step to find what happened to their other children... and who John's father was!
Just discovered this board and learning my way arround. Appreciate all your efforts!
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I can see the Watkins in Llanbedr in 1861, but John is shown as 26, so born 1835ish. There's a possible baptism of a John to James & Mary 2/8/1835, James being a sawyer. But, that John is still living with his parents in 1861 in nearby Llanfihangel Ystern Llewern.
Where did you get the birth year of 1828 for John?
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in 1871 it is same family... says he was born in 31 but 81 census says about 1827.
'71 says he was born in Llanvihangel. '61 said Llantillo Cross... so I am thinking that it may have been Llantill Cross where they were married (since record was found there) and that earlier census he wasn't there to confirm correct birth place.
I know census records here in US can have things off quite often when someone else is giving census taker the answers for someone else.
In actuality, he was born in Llanvihangel.... Does that make sense??
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Census records show the first two were born in Llantillo Crosseney, the rest of the children born in Llanbedr, Brecon
I found Henry on the link you sent me (As well as their marriage record), but not Arthur, who was born before.
As I am now thinking. John married Elizabeth Sykes in Llantillo Crosseney... had their first two children there and moved. His correct birth place is probably what is found on the '71 census. '71 & 81 they are in Llangenny.
I cannot find him after that. She is living with the younger children, so it is possible he is deceased by then.
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if his birth place on the census varies, how do you know where he was born? And which of the Monmouthshire Llanfihangels do you think it is? There are a few
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~monfamilies/monprts.htm
There are 2 possible Johns baptised in Llantillio Crossenny in 1827, one the son of George, a tailor, and the other the son of Sarah Watkins otp & Rees Rees, coachman of Llanarthney in Carmarthenshire.
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I understand what you are saying about the birth place varying.....
I have seen cases where the person giving the information didn't really know the information so gave the latest they knew. It would make sense if he wasn't available (working, etc.) when the census taker came around. They were married in Llantillo Crosseney, so whoever gave the info may have 'assumed' that was where he was born.
Just looked at the 1871 census and it just says Llvanvihangel, Monmouth..... '81 says Monmouth
Between the two census records, there is 4 yrs difference in his age. It is the same John, b/c of location, family names, etc.
First 2 children born in Llantillo Crosseneny, next in Llanbedr and the last 3 or so born in Llangenney.
So, do you think he could be son of George & Mary... Single mother... or is there a Llanvihangel "close" to this area??
By 1871, their two older boys (Alfred & Henry) are living with Elizabeth's mother on Henbant farm (Husband Henry has passed) and the rest of the family has moved on to Llangenney.
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the person supplying the info should be the head of house - John. Census day is a Sunday. The enumerator delivered the census forms before the day and picked them up afterwards.
Llanfihangel Ystern Llewern is the nearest of the Llanfihangels
http://www.genuki.org.uk/cgi-bin/places?MON,SO398149,5,Llantillio%20Crossenny
Given that there is no father's name on the marriage record, I would think that he was the son of the single mother, but it's common name, I wouldn't like to say for sure.
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I woke up last night thinking about this. Is there no father listed because the transcript was illegible or there really was no father?
It would seem highly likely that Sarah Watkins may have been his mother. That being said... it would mean that we are not really Watkins... but Rees? Is there a way to find Sarah located at a later date with her son?
Would it be common, for that time period, for a man with Elizabeth's father's wealth... Henry Sykes.... to allow his daughter to marry a bastard?
It is interesting to know how the census was done. If the head of household gave the information, what accounts for the differences? Did he just not know or was he hiding something? (There are many cases of different birth places and age differences in census's in the U.S., yet are the same person/family) I guess, this has me confused a bit.
Can you explain the records for me? What do the different abbreviations mean on these records ... ie... "otp"
So many questions..... (sorry) ???
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Went back to look at the birth record again... it gives Rees as the last name for the John born at that time....
Because of that, I am thinking that John would be son of George & Mary.... if it were Llantillo Crossenney.
I guess, next step would be to try and locate George & Mary... other children and see if they fit in. (I would guess I would need a new thread for that! LOL) :-[
Thanks for all your input!
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sorry, otp is of this parish.
The way to check for a father's name would be to buy a copy of the marriage cert. I was surprised to see the way John son of Sarah was noted at baptism. Children of unmarried mothers would normally take the surname of their mother at this time and even if the parents married later, the child would be considered illegitimate. It could be that the Rees was his middle name.
Did Henry leave a will? He may not have owned the land he farmed, he could have been a tenant farmer and the second half of the 19th century wasn't good for many farmers, so he may not have been as wealthy as the acres farmed suggests. The land is also high & hilly.
http://www.go4awalk.com/uk-mountains-and-hills/mountains-england-wales.php?mountain=17675
I had a look for George Watkins - he died in 1833 aged 41.
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Henry is listed on the Probate Calander as Death in Brecon on: 11 Dec 1868 and his Probate date as: 23 Jan 1869
It said he was a farmer of late at Henbant farm w/effects under 800L
Was proved in Hereford by oath of Evan Powell of Gwrlode in the Parish aforesaid Farmer sole Executor. It gives how many acres the farm was on the 1861 census, but I can't read. It appears to be 3 digits, but is that possible? Someone farther up on the page has 8 acres.
It would be great to buy a copy of the marriage certificate. How do we do that from the U.S.? Could we get the Will of Henry Sykes, as well??
I looked at George and his wife, Mary. It seems they had several children, with the last being born in 1832 & buried 19 months later, in May of 1834. Possibly, he did not list father at marriage since he was deceased?
I am so thankful to have your input, as understanding of the way things are worded and how they were done can be confusing for someone like me!
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Birthplace mystery solved~
I mentioned earlier that John Watkins had stated in on census that he was born in Llantillo Crosseney & another it sayd Llafangel (or whatever :-\)
I went back and checked. It was the transciber, who I believe made an error. On the 881 census, the person listed BEFORE John is in Llafangel and then on John's line below it, the census person made the mark, as if John's was the same as the person above. It seems strange, so I am pretty sure, it is Llantillo Crosseney, as is what the '71 censes says... and where his Parish Marriage Record is.
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you can order the marriage cert online using the ref I gave you in my first reply
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/
This gives you info about ordering a will
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,581696.0.html
8 acres would be a very small farm. Think 1861 might say 150 acres, 1851 looks like 60 acres.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acre
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I found a site and ordered John & Elizabeth's Marriage Certificate. Cost a bit oer $40, so will wait until next pay to order Henry Syke's Will. That is a bit cheaper.
I thought it said 150 acres, as well. I noticed that in '61 that John & Elizabeth's two older children are living with their Gram, Elizabeth and the rest of family has moved on to Lanbedr. Great for Gram but said the boys are separated from their parents & siblings.
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DON'T order from any site apart from the GRO. Certs from there cost £9.25. You can order directly from the registrars but that can be more difficult if you're not in the UK.
Other sites just rip you off.
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/media-centre/news/misleading-websites
:o :o
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Ouch! :o Looks like I am one of the ones who just got ripped off! It really looked legit. Everything I tried to type in to research how to order one... came up with this site or one like it. This one 'looked' official, but then again... they also, had links to genealogy researchers, so I guess that should have been my first clue! I hope that I get what I ordered. :'(
Well.... at least I didn't order both items. Next comes the Will...
Thank you for the warning!! :)
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Hi, not sure if i may link in with your Watkins's somewhere along the line..... I have a JOHN WATKINS marrying my ggreat aunt ANN PARRY born 1842, married at llangattock lingoed which is not far from llantillio crossenny, they had a son JOHN JAMES WATKINS born 1872........ on 1901 census they have Johns niece Phoebe Gorst born 1858 at llanigon breconshire and great niece Jenny Gorst born 1900 staying with them. unfortunately i dont have any parents names for JOHN WATKINS but will have a dig around now for any info i can find...
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Bow,
Would love to see if there is any connection somewhere long the line. I will print off your post and look up to see if I can find anything that connects, as well. You probably know much better than I do, what localities are near others.
Charlotte
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Watkins, John and Ann, Llanfihangel Crucorney,
I am related to John's family and have a lot of information on them which I am happy to share.
Mand54
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I have my John Watkins married to Louisa Parry b 1874 - daughter of John b 1844 & Clara Jane b 1855 .... could they be connected or related?
She has brothers John & James and sister Clara Jane.
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Afraid that I don't know about Ann Watkins, nee Parry, family and wether she had a sister, Louise. John Watkins was born in Glynfach, marrying Ann who already had an illegal. Daughter. John James ran the Bush Pub, Abertillery, where he died in 1951. Mand