RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Coffee Lover on Sunday 26 February 12 12:21 GMT (UK)
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I am looking at 1911 census and am wondering where, if anywhere, service families' details are recorded and births / deaths registered.
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If they are in the UK then BMD would be registered as normal with the GRO. For overseas BMD there is/are a separate list/s.
The website Find My Past has indexes to some of the lists dating from the mid 1700's to 2005.
Many of them are based on Chaplin's returns, depending on how diligent the Chaplin was at reporting BMD back to the UK, will effect how lucky you are at finding overseas BMD.
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The 1911 census also includes:
Military bases
Overseas Military
Royal Naval at Sea
But remember that, if you are using Ancestry, they haven't finished indexing the complate 1911 census!
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Hi
Some of the army returns do cover births in this country despite the fact they are held in the GRO overseas section.
'Regimental registers of births and baptisms start in 1761 in England and Wales and around 1790 in other countries, and continue to 1924. They include births in the United Kingdom and abroad. The indexes are arranged alphabetically and give a name, place, year and regiment.'
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/records/looking-for-person/birthmarriagedeatharmedforces.htm
http://www.findmypast.co.uk/help-and-advice/knowledge-base/overseas-military/records#6
Regards
Valda
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I am having great difficulty posting!
Thanks to all of you for responding so quickly.
Would the normal search facility pick these records up?
I have a WW1 MM holder, killed with his wife in the blitz in WW2. I cannot pick him up on the census neither can I identify any birth or marriage records and do not know which of the London Gazette entries relates to him.
Also having got the one line entry in the gazette, how does one then find out why the award was given?
Any help would be much appreciated.
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If you give us his name, approx. date of birth, and place of birth, then maybe one of us can find something?
His parents, wife and children might help, too!! ;D
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The CWGC records list a Mr Alfred J Drury MM, husband of Mrs Rose E Drury both killed on 15th November 1940 at 147 High Road, East Finchley, London N2, aged 52 & 50 respectively (BMD records their ages as 53 & 51 which confuses me since I would have thought that both would use the same base record!).
I initially thought that the MM may have been awarded posthumously because many others died with them, but if I understand correctly it is an award given for bravery in the field and given his age I therefore assume it was awarded in WW1.
I am not aware of there being any children from the marriage but that may change.
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aged 52 & 50 respectively (BMD records their ages as 53 & 51 which confuses me since I would have thought that both would use the same base record!).
There is no such thing as a "base record"!
Ages on death certificates are those given by the informer. ::)
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Found their marriage!
December qtr 1908
Islington district vol 1b, page 416
Drury, Alfred John
Lancaster, Rose Ethel
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Probate calendar
Rose Ethel Drury widow 147 High Road who is believed to have been killed through war operations on 16 Nov 1940 £402 0s 11d
named Margaret Ruth Waite wife of Maurice Vernon Waite.
Joy
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ST Mary Hornsey Rise 25/12/1909
Alfred John Drury 24 Bootmaker 4 Sunnyside Road father Thomas- Farrier
Rose Ethel Lancester 19 same address father William Edward - Shopwright
Witnesses E.Lancaster & FG Lancaster & L.Goat
St.Andrew Haverstock Hill Camden 10/7/`887
Alfred John Drury parents Ruth & Thomas Drury occ. Farrier address 33 Warden Road.
Jennifer
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Probate Calendar
Alfred John Drury same as his wife left £506 9s 3d.
Joy
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1891 census 33 Warden Raod
Thomas Drury 38 Farrier/Smith Camden Town
Ruth 33 Buckinghamshire
Walter 12
George 8
Alf. 4
Emma 18 months all born Camden Town
1901 High Street Esher
Alfred Drury 15 apprentice Bootmaker born Camden Town ( Boarder)
Jennifer
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Marriage
Margaret R Drury 1937 Sept Q Barnet 3a 2391
Maurice V Waite
So could be a daughter of your couple.
Joy
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1881 censu 18 Newberry Mews
Thomas 29 Farrier
Ruth 24
Walter 1
Margaret 53 mother Launderess
Jane 27 sister All born Pancras
1.5.1915 death Walter Frederick Drury Flanders (Gunner)
Married 25/12/1904 St.Andrews H.H
Lilian Mabel Lancaster
Same details as before so looks as though two brothers married two sisters.
Jennifer
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I have been looking at the Medal Rolls on Ancestry, and seacrhing the London Gazette, but I can't find a mention of any Military Medal?
If you have a look at this thread, it might explain about the MM?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,458254.20.html
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aged 52 & 50 respectively (BMD records their ages as 53 & 51 which confuses me since I would have thought that both would use the same base record!).
There is no such thing as a "base record"!
Ages on death certificates are those given by the informer. ::)
I have been trying to post since this one!!!
Who might have reported death in the blitz?
I meant that I thought that the death certificate would have been the source record and therefore the common reference point.
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The informant usually has to be one of:
someone present at the death
someone in attendance
the occupier of a house
the master or keeper of an institution
a person who found the body
inmate of a house or institution - this was a person living at the same address who knew of the event
person causing the burial
person in charge of the body
Normally it is a relative, or someone at the hospital or nursing home where the decesed died.
In this case there was unlikely to be a relative?
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Margaret Ruth Drury born 1910 was it seems their daughter and it says online that they were killed in their shoe and leather shop in Finchley.
So I assume it was the daughter who registered the death.
Jennifer
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As you may have guessed this is the first time that I have done this and I have spent the last two weeks or so trawling through totally irrelevant records! I do so wish I had sought your help earlier.
So after destroying a few trees, because I can't read too much information on the screen, what was I doing wrong?
I was brought up within a stone's throw of where they lived and am absolutely amazed at the probate details. Might that have been compensation for the loss of their house? It would have bought the whole street several times over!
Know that I know who he was, is there an easy way to determine his regiment so that I can cross reference back to my list from the LG. Am I correct in believing that men enlisted or were conscripted into local regiments in WW1?
Which brings me to my final (in my dreams!) query. I have a number of issue and page numbers from my LG search. These lead me to, by date, issue number, & page number a long list of names by army number, rank, & name. I then get the option to look at the .pdf or to buy the LG. Neither of these options give me any further information. In just one instance it led to a paragraph some three months later giving details of the event. Is this because of the high number of casualties or that generally only details are given for officers?
I am staggered at the information that you have given me and the speed with which you have achieved this. Thank you all so much.
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So sorry if these are inane questions but when you are quoting 25.12.1909 is that the marriage date or the end of the quarter recording the marriage?
Is the discrepancy in their ages i.e. at marriage he is 24 and she 19, a 5 year difference not 2 years as shown by CWGC, merely a clerical error?
Is this a different marriage to the one found by KGarrad?
JenniferC where did you get information on Margaret Drury from? Sign of the times maybe there was another cobblers two doors from me, 100 yards or so from the High Road.
If you weren't all so clever in identifying the daughter how should I have gone about finding any children from a marriage? I had enough trouble trying to go back never mind going forwards!
How do you know that in between any two census dates there haven't been births who sadly did not survive the intervening 10 years?
Were the censuses always conducted in April the year after the decade i.e. 1891, 1901, 1911 etc.?
I'm sorry if my questions are a bit jumbled - kind of reflects the state of my brain at the moment!
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Yes the two marriages are the same and date when they got married.
Margaret Ruth Waite was name on the probate calendar wife of Maurice Vernon Waite in both entries. So just looked for the marriage of Maurice V Waite and Margaret Ruth Drury was who he married.
The amounts of money is what their estates where after death. In 1911 the wife's maiden name was added to birth entries so it became easier to look for birth's did have a look but did not come up with any births for Drury and mother been Lancaster from 1911 onwards.
Any information is only as good as person giving it and if they did not know person very well you can get different ages and people also gave wrong information...
Joy
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Thanks Joy - guess I want to run before I can even crawl nevermind walk!
Part of the learning curve I suppose but I had found the Lancaster / Drury marriage and dismissed it with nothing helpful like a note as to why! Similarly I found Alfred in Esher as a boarder on the 1901 census but I think at the time I was of the opinion that he originated from Castle Hedingham and so again dismissed it. Good job I'm not a detective!