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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Staffordshire => Topic started by: keithwfhc on Friday 24 February 12 12:29 GMT (UK)
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I am hoping that someone could please search for the burial of Fanny COLLIER in the years 1903 to 1905 at Longton (Staffordshire) Cemetery. She was born 2nd October 1866 and was married to Thomas COLLIER (who was born Gerard COLLIER). According to a famous story in spiritualism, a medium told her 14-year old daughter, also called Fanny COLLIER (she was born late 1889 or early 1890) that her mother had died. At that time, Fanny was with an aunt, but had seen her mother an hour ago. Fanny rushed home in tears to find that her mother had indeed died. A problem with this story has been that no death registration is recorded in the GRO death indexes at any time between the 1901 and 1911 census at any place remotely near Longton, which is where she was living. The question therefore arises as to whether there is evidence of Fanny the elder's death. Her husband Thomas, a coal miner with a large family, must be presumed not to have been a man of means, so Longton Cemetery seems the likeliest place to find a burial - if there was one. A negative result would be of considerable interest.
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Nothing on BMD or freereg. Tried fanny and Francis
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Hi, Nothing on Find My Past either
Peter
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I am assuming Thomas is shown as a widower on the 1911 census??
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Thanks for your interest. Yes, the 1911 census shows Thomas COLLIER as a widower and, of course, does not show Fanny COLLIER the elder. The 1901 census shows Thomas, Fanny the elder and Fanny the younger, as expected.
Of course, the mere fact that Thomas COLLIER is shown as a widower on the 1911 census does not necessarily mean that he really was.
I have e-mailed the Longton Spiritualist Church to ask them if they have any evidence of Fanny the elder's death and have yet to receive a reply. I am not hopeful that anyone has troubled to check the facts !
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Now a curious thing. No death in Staffordshire is recorded, that I can find, for a Fanny or Francis Collier in the years 1901 - 1905 but also no death is recorded for the years 1900 - 1911. If she was in the 1901 census but dead by 1911 then she didn't die in Staffordshire it would seem.
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The 1901 transcription shows the family living in Newhall Staffs - registration district Burton on Trent
However - the 1901 image shows the county as Derbyshire and the UD as Swadlincote
The only other thing I can think of is that the GRO page containing the entry is indecipherable hence no transcription
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The nearest I can find in age is Fanny Collier died 1905 aged 41 Worcester district vol 6c page 131.
A long shot and the only reason I can think of that they might be there is if they had been transferred to a hospital in the district
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Hi Zen rabbit,
I agree that the death registration in Worcester RD (Worcester City) in 1905 is the nearest that could be found, but it is not credible that Fanny could have seen her mother an hour previously if her mother was in Worcester at the time.
Unfortunately, I live some 200 miles from Longton Cemetery and so am in no position to search the records. According to the Stoke-on-Trent cemeteries website, one should telephone the Carmountside Cemetery on 01782 235050, which has all the records for the Stoke-on-Trent cemeteries including Longton. It states that they are arranged by date, but not in name order. I will find out whether there is a search fee.
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Hi
I would not base your research on stories that have been handed down, as I have found out over the last 10 years of researching, they become distorted over the years.
Margp
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I agree entirely. The story is doubtless handed down, but it is relatively recent and so cannot have been handed down many times. You will also find it on the website of the Longton Spiritualist Church and is referred to in the book "On the Side of Angels" by Gordon Higginson, who was the son of Fanny Collier the younger and a spiritualist. The point is that it seems to be an important story in the history of spiritualism, yet has clearly not been properly checked against verifiable facts. If this story turns out to be unverifiable, what credence can be given to other accounts of spiritualist events ?
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Gordon Higginson will have heard the story from his mother - Fanny jnr so in effect it was first hand info.
Fanny allegedly saw her mother only an hour prior to her death so she was clearly close at hand at her aunts house and therefore still in Staffs.
Fanny rushed home - again - no suggestion that her mother died anywhere other than at home in Staffs
I am assuming that there is no mention of the nature of Fanny's death - natural causes or an accident?
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Hi Keith
If you don't get a result from your other enquiries that are pending, I would send for the DC in Worcester, it may be a long shot, but death's are registered in the district where they died and she may have been buried there too, as you say they were not a rich family and may not have been able to have her transported back to Longton, I would also check if the extended family had any connections with Worcester she may have been visiting a family member.
Another thought, what would you do if did not know the story about Fanny, having said all that I am still searching for my grandmother DC and burial record 10 YEARS ON so I know how frustrating it is.
Good Luck Margp
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Marg is right. The 1901 has no Fanny Collier entry for Worcester and with the proximity of the 2 counties - it will either solve the mystery or leave you £9.25 out of pocket but I agree it's the only possibility
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I am within a cycle ride of Stoke archives so if I get chance I will see if there is anything for Longton burials. By way of example I recently found an ancestor buried in 1844 there. She was not found on a BMD search initially but there she was in the burials. I did another search and found her in BMD, they had missed a letter out of the name (even though it was quite plain on the printed list) so it is always possible that a miss transcribed entry is the problem. Given that by your account she must have died within that 10 year period and no death pops up on BMD then a mis-transcribed recod is quite possible. Difficulty will be finding it.
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Okay dokey I have gone through all the death indexes for 1903 - 1905 and can not find a Fanny, Frances or Francis Collier or any possible derivations of in the listings. If it is any help the Fanny Collier in Worcester was aged 41.
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Hi Zen Rabbit, CaroleW & Margp,
Thanks for the kind offer, Zen Rabbit, but I have discovered that there is a £25 fee for searching the Longton Cemetery burials. As this is not my personal genealogy, I shall not be pursuing that line of enquiry.
In reply to CaroleW, one version of the story says that Fanny had a heart attack, but I suspect that this is mere embroidery of the original version.
In reply to Margp, the story is based on Longton and Fanny rushed home (presumably on foot). The Worcester RD death registration is a non-starter in my view. Anyway, Fanny would have been 39 in October 1905, not 41. A difference of two years for a woman approaching 40 would normally be thought significant if the age was being raised, rather than lowered !
My theory is that Fanny the elder did not die at the stated time, but left her husband and the whole episode of the seance was a pre-arranged cover-up to avoid scandal and provide "evidence" to Fanny the younger, of her mother's "death".
This is probably the last post, so thank you all for your contributions.
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Hi
Have you any evidence to support your theory
I would not put credence on the Date of Birth on the death records, the information is only as good as the informants knowledge, my grandfather death record was out by 7 years
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Hi
Have you any evidence to support your theory
I would not put credence on the Date of Birth on the death records, the information is only as good as the informants knowledge, my grandfather death record was out by 7 years