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Research in Other Countries => New Zealand => New Zealand Completed Requests => Topic started by: Skybluechris on Thursday 23 February 12 14:32 GMT (UK)
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Hello
I am trying to find more information relating to my great aunt and her husband who were last known to be in Canterbury.
My great aunt was Nellie (also know as Helen) Newell, nee Craig born in 1890 in Carnlough, County Antrim, Ireland. Her husband was Francis Newell, an mechanical engineer. The last known record of them is in the NZ Electoral Roll for 1928 where they are both resident at 18 Gordon Avenue, Christchurch North, Canterbury.
Any information regarding the above would be most welcome.
Thanks
Christopher
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Hello Christopher
Archives New Zealand (Christchurch office) hold the following probate record.
NEWELL - Francis - Christchurch - Mechanical Engineer -- 1973
and NZ BDM has ....
Death
1973 - NEWELL - Francis - d.o.b. 7 April 1881
Will see what else I can find.
~ Lu
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Hello...
EDIT:
Sorry about this :-)
My original post may or may not be a red herring (which will become clearer later in the thread).
I'll leave it up anyway....
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Can't give any definite information (sorry) but when you put Francis NEWELL into the NZ electoral roll index on ancestry you also come up with Francis David NEWELL. He is listed on the NZ WW2 Nominal Roll and his "other" is Mr F NEWELL. There is also a James NEWELL on the WW2 Nominal Roll and his "other" is also a Mr F NEWELL.
I've checked the WW2 Nominal roll at my library. It lists the same "Last NZ Address" in Oxford, Canterbury for both Francis David NEWELL and James NEWELL so I'd guess they were brothers. For both of them Mr F NEWELL (father) is listed as next-of-kin. His address is different to the brothers. For the first enlistment (Francis David in 1941) he is in Rangiora, which is near Christchurch (I think). For the second enlistment (James in 1942) he is in Riccarton, which is part of Christchurch.
Francis David NEWELL is buried in the Oxford Public cemetery
http://www.waimakariri.govt.nz/services/cemeteries/cemetery-search.aspx
Buried in the same cemetery is a Helen King NEWELL. Sharing the plot with Helen is a Graeme Francis NEWELL aged 0 years. He is the infant son of Frances David and Jean Mary NEWELL. His death is registered as BDM NZ Births 1950/107849
I don't know where James NEWELL is buried but a James NEWELL is listed on BDM NZ as having died in 2000. His death notice is in the Press (Christchurch newspaper) on the 22nd and 23rd of June 2000. You could always ask for a death notice look-up and see if there are any family mentioned.
BDM NZ
https://www.bdmhistoricalrecords.dia.govt.nz/search
Press Death Notice 2000-2011
http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/about-us/reader-services/2259796/Death-Notices-List-of-Names
Or you can just file this away for the moment as it's all supposition. Might be a good idea until you see what names are in the probate Lucy mentioned.
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Regards
Beg
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Just in case its of any help, the headstone at Oxford
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Mmm ... the nominal roll info is helpful Beg. ;)
I've spent a bit of time on this query also ;D ... trawling e/rolls and other indexes ... and arriving eventually at the burial record of Helen King NEWELL (1937).
But this would seem to be the marriage of this Helen (and her maiden surname is not that given earlier by Christopher). ???
NZ Marriage
Helen King RADCLIFFE - Frank NEWELL -- 1908
~ Lu
more to follow >>
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NZ Births (to "today's date", 1912 )
1909 - NEWELL - William Radcliffe
Parents: Helen King and Frank NEWELL
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NZ Births (to "today's date", 1912 )
1909 - NEWELL - William Radcliffe
Parents: Helen King and Frank NEWELL
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Electoral rolls
Have not found on any rolls, a listing for a "Helen King NEWELL".
Whilst there are listings (Canterbury area) for "NEWELL - Francis, sharing an address with a Helen or Nellie, married", the following is the only one for the Oxford locality.
1935 - Huruni Supplementary roll
NEWELL - Francis - High Street, Oxford* - cartage contractor
NEWELL - Helen - Oxford - married
[* High Street, Oxford is a match with the WW11 roll info (for Francis David NEWELL) given by Beg.
That this couple are on a supplementary roll, could mean that they had only recently taken up residence in the area. ]
So, the above "Francis NEWELL" (who is possibly the "Frank" who wed Helen King Radcliffe ?) has the occupation of "cartage contractor" (and not engineer) ?
But I have some further info which (very possibly) leads back to the "Francis NEWELL" probate record (1973).
Need a break ... will continue with this shortly. ;)
~ Lu
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Thanks Lucy,
I've amended my original post accordingly :-)
I really must consider subscribing to ancestry (but that's no excuse for not checking the BDM NZ marriage you linked to...very sloppy)
Regards
Beg
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Hello All
Thanks so much for taking a run at this. Trying to do it from the other side of the planet has drawn a blank!
I have taken a cursory look for 1881 births of Francis Newell in Ireland in both Ancestry and the Ulster Historical Foundation and while there are a few that match they're not in the same locale, so I'm none the wiser as to where (and when) they married, Ireland, en route or New Zealand?
The union is noted in a hand written family tree from the 1950s which doesn't indicate any more than the Nellie's name and her husband's surname. The other information was from my mother, so they must have kept in touch with County Antrim in some fashion in order for her to know.
The only other snippit is that Nellie was my grandfather's (James Craig) twin - maybe someone will recall that or the fact that there was another set of twins (Ann Jane and Hugh) born the year before. Their poor mother!
Sorry I have no more to go on.
All the best
Christopher
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No, No, Beg ... please don't think "red herring", just yet. :)
And don't delete anything either. :D
There's something odd I've discovered about this Francis NEWELL from Oxford ... will add additional info shortly.
~ Lu
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Hi Christopher
You've popped in at an opportune time. :)
Can I ask please, how it is you know that Nellie and her husband Francis, were living in Canterbury, New Zealand ?
~ Lu
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Just in case its of any help, the headstone at Oxford
Hello Leandra,
Thanks very much for the headstone photo.
Did you find it on the Waimakariri cemetery website. I can't see where the link is.
Thanks
Beg
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Just adding the following for you Beg, so you can see where I was "heading". ;)
Following the death of Helen King NEWELL in 1937, her husband Francis remarried. In 1938 his wife-to-be (a spinster), is shown on the 1938 e/roll at Hurunui where her address is given as "c/- F. NEWELL, Oxford".
The next available electoral listing (several years after the marriage), shows ...
1946 - Riccarton roll
NEWELL - Francis - 32 Hagley Street - [u]engineer [/u]
(wife, Ruby Alice, at same address. )
[32 Hagley Street is the same as shown for James NEWELL (son) on WW11 nom. roll ]
Thereafter, this Francis NEWELL and wife appear at other Christchurch addresses - though his status is given as "retired". There are no more listings (for him) after the early '70's, so it would appear likely that he is the Francis NEWELL to whom the 1973 Probate record applies ?
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Hello Lucy,
So basically I would look less silly if we could show that the Helen in the 1928 electoral roll originally mentioned by Christopher is Helen King NEWELL formerly RADCLIFFE, not Helen NEWELL formerly CRAIG.....hmmmmmm
:-)
Regards
Beg
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Francis NEWELL - mechanical engineer
First appearance in Canterbury is ...
1911 - Christchurch North Supplementary roll
NEWELL - Francis - 18 Gordon Street - mechanical engineer
1914 and 1919 - Christchurch North Main roll
NEWELL - Francis - mechanical engineer
NEWELL - Nellie - married ... both at 18 Gordon Street
Next available (online) roll ...
1928 - Christchurch North Roll
NEWELL - Francis - motor engineer
NEWELL - Helen - married ... both at 18 Gordon Street
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Newell is a fairly unusual surname. I wouldn't think it likely there'd be two couples with exactly the same christian names (and a similar occupation) living in Canterbury (in the same era). ???
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Hi Christopher
There is no evidence of a New Zealand marriage between a "Helen / Nellie / Nelly / Ellen" CRAIG to a Francis / Frank NEWELL / NEWALL.
~ Lu
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*** Correction ***
... to last posting
Street name should read -- Gordon Avenue (not Street).
:-[
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Hi Beg,
The headstones at Oxford are not online, I have photgraphed the cemetery.
There is another Newell grave, Francis David , I haven't posted it as it has a living relatives name on it. If skybluechris thinks this is the family he is looking for I can email it to him :)
Regards
leandra
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The headstones at Oxford are not online, I have photgraphed the cemetery.
Hello Leandra...
Thanks for that.
I did wonder but should have realized :-)
All the best
Beg
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Hello Christopher...
EDIT: More than likely a red herring sorry. See below. But I'll leave up the original post
I'm assuming that the following LDS link relates to the correct Ellen/Helen/Nellie CRAIG
If I'm wrong just ignore the rest of the post :-)
LDS - 1890 Birth of Ellen CRAIG
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FBD6-56R
But I think I'm right because you said that Ellen and James were twins and the following link for James CRAIG has the same Vol/Page number as the previous link
LDS - 1890 Birth of James CRAIG
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FBD6-56Y
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EDIT: This next bit is the red herring bit...
Have you eliminated the following 1906 marriage of Ellen CRAIG registered in Larne.
Name - Ellen CRAIG
Record Type - Marriages
Registration District - Larne
Year/quarter - Jan to Mar 1906
Volume No. - 1
Page No. - 681
LDS - 1906 Marriage of Ellen CRAIG
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FYDS-724
I am a bit wary as she would have just turned 15. But as Ellen is no longer listed with her parents and sibling in the 1911 census it sort of makes sense to look at Larne marriages from 1904-ish to 1912. And this is the only one which sticks out.
By matching the above register details on LDS it looks like the only names on Page 681 of Volume 1 are James BALMER, Robert IRVINE and Agnes DUNLOP. No sign of a Francis NEWELL.
But this 1906 Larne marriage shouldn't be eliminated until you sight the register entry. (I think a photocopy of the entry costs about €4.00. I've not dealt with the Irish GRO but I'm sure the Irish rootschat board can advise.)
You may think it's a waste of €4.00 when the groom is more likely than not to be either James BALMER or Robert IRVINE. But if the bride's parents are James and Mary and the bride's age is 16-ish then you can add an Ellen BALMER/IRVINE to the mix.
LDS - 1906 Marriage of James BALMER
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FYDS-G4W
LDS - 1906 Marriage of Robert IRVINE
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FYD9-Z2S
LDS - 1906 Marriage of Agnes DUNLOP
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/FYDS-TJF
1901 census of Ireland
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Antrim/Ardclinis/Highlandstown/993367/
1911 census of Ireland
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Ardclinis/Highlandtown/193484/
EDIT...a few days later :-)
The 1911 census has a Robert and Ellen IRVINE who have been married for 5 years and live in Ballyvaddy, Antrim. This might be the Ballyvaddy a dozen or so miles north of Larne, so well within the Larne registration district.
More than likely this is the couple who married in 1906. And as the age of this Ellen is 28 it's looks as though the 1906 marriage is another red herring
1911 census - Robert and Ellen CRAIG (married 5 years - tick "Show All Information" box)
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Glencloy/Ballyvaddy/194234/
And this is more likely than not the other couple on page 681 of the marriage register...
1911 census - James and Agnes BALMER (married 5 years)
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Antrim/Glenarm/Mark_Street/194041/
Regards
Beg
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Hello All
Once again, thanks for checking into this. I don't know how much further on I am. I've compared the various NZ Electoral Roll entries and given that Nellie is later shown as Helen, when I know she should definitely be an Ellen I'm wondering if I've got the wrong folks.
The later Roll entries after 1946 don't show Nellie with Frank and once Frank is stated as retired he appears to have remarried. That said, his retirement dates (some time between 1949 and 1954) would put him in the correct age bracket.
I still can't find Nellie in the 1911 Ireland Census and she appears with Frank in the 1914 Roll. As he's not with Nelly in the 1911 Roll one may conclude that the married in NZ sometime between 1911 and 1914.
So I guess I'll have to follow-up Lu's initial posting for the 1973 probate, at least to eliminate the Nellie /Frank Electoral Roll entries if nothing else.
Lu's question about how we know it was Canterbury opens another can of worms. The short answer is we don't. The longer answer is, we know it was NZ and my sister recalled there being correspondence from Canterbury that has since disappeared.
I should have realised earlier, but the one definite piece of information I have on Nellie (properly Ellen) is that she was born on 5 Oct 1890. Maybe that will help locate her death. So if someone can find out the age of any Ellen Newell that dies in Canterbury between 1928 and 1946 that may help.
All the best
Christopher
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Not sure if this is her, age is out by five years, worth a little look. Helen King Newell, there are a few more Newell's on this site
And Waimakariri is part of Canterbury.
http://www.waimakariri.govt.nz/services/cemeteries/cemetery-search-detail.aspx?ID=OOX03070010
Suzy W
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Not sure if this is her, age is out by five years, worth a little look. Helen King Newell, there are a few more Newell's on this site And Waimakariri is part of Canterbury.
Suzy W
Hello Suzy,
I think Lucy has already eliminated this Helen King NEWELL earlier in the thread.
Regards
Beg
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So I guess I'll have to follow-up Lu's initial posting for the 1973 probate
Hello Christopher...
Just in case you don't know....you can always start a new thread asking for a "probate look-up" on your behalf at the Christchurch Archives.
Someone visiting the Archives for their own research will ask, on your behalf, to view the probate for Frank NEWELL. He or she will then take photos of the probate and email the photos to you. It saves you from having to pay for Archives staff to copy the probate and send it to you as there is no charge when a probate is viewed on-site.
But first off you have to email Christchurch Archives and ask if the probate is kept on-site or off-site. Here is the email address for Christchurch Archives and a bit more info on the situation post-earthquake.
http://www.archway.archives.govt.nz/
If the probate is kept off-site Chch Archives will let you know when it can be accessed.
If the probate is kept on-site you can then start a new thread for a Christchurch Archives look-up.
Here's an example of a Christchurch look-up request...
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,570532.0.html
You may have to wait a week or three for a rootschatter to visit Chch Archives but it will save you $25-ish
Regards
Beg
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Hi There,
I have sent archives in Christchurch a request for Francis NEWELL's probate. I will be viewing it Friday this week if it is available to view
Cheers
Newbe
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Hi There,
I have photos of Francis NEWELL'S probate. If you care to PM me your email address I can send copies to you.
Regards
Newbe
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Hello All
Firstly a big thank you to everyone who has responded, especially leandra for visiting the cemetery, Beg Clonrode for all the digging and to newbe_nz for finding the probate in the archives and being kind enough to photograph it.
The probate tied all the names of the children mentioned above together. It also made perfect sense of Helen King Radcliffe's death in 1937 and Francis' subsequent remarriage to Ruby Alice. Hence I can only conclude that this particular Mr Newell is not the one that married my great aunt Nellie since the Helen King Radcliffe name and the full names of the children as shown in the will nail it.
The bit that still niggles is that Nellie/Ellen/Helen isn't listed with Francis Newell in the 1911 Electoral Roll, despite being married in 1908. She is listed in the 1914 Roll though.
Hopefully this thread will be of use to a fellow Newell researcher later on. As for my great aunt Nellie and her Craig siblings, I'll have to think of a new search strategy.
Should I crack the Nellie/Newell/New Zealand part I will needless to say post the results back here to save anyone else's confusion.
Thanks once again all
Christopher
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Hi Christopher,
Just wanted to add for furture elimination purposes the Francis Newell died 1973 was born in Lisburn, Northern Ireland, parents William Benjamin and Sarah (Adams).
Not a million miles as the crow flies from Carnlough ;)
leandra
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Thanks Leandra
Back then the chances of someone from the Glens meeting someone from Lisburn while in Ireland would have been relatively small - it's a hour by motorway and main road even today. That said, on a steamer or in a new country their accents would soon have placed them in a smaller and more recognisable group. Not an uncommon state of affairs I guess.
I still reckon that it's the wrong Nellie/Ellen/Helen as according to the grave photograph she was born in 1885, not 1890. I don't think anyone would get it that wrong, especially on a grave. That coupled with the full name in the marriage entry make it very unlikely.
Maybe in years to come some link between the Newells in Canterbury and the Nellie I seek will emerge. Thanks though Leandra for the details as if further information emerges I'll at least know to be wary of POB 'Ireland' entries.
All the best
Christopher
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The bit that still niggles is that Nellie/Ellen/Helen isn't listed with Francis Newell in the 1911 Electoral Roll, despite being married in 1908.
Yes she is !
Frank NEWELL's 1911 enrolment appears to have been late and he is shown on the Christchurch North Supplementary Roll [published after the main roll had closed.]
1911 - Christchurch North Main Roll
NEWELL - Nellie - 18 Gordon Avenue - married
~ Lu
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Good spotting Lu ;D
Yes, it pays to be aware there may be entries in both Main and Supplementary Rolls.
John B
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Hi Christopher,
Even though Nellie is on the 1911 roll for Gordon Street, this 'Nellie' is actually Helen King Radcliffe according to the church index cards which have her address at the time of her marrige to this Francis Newell. So this must rule out the Gordon street Francis Newell altogether?
nb place of birth for Francis is different to the other record I found yesterday.
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Thanks Lu for clearing that up - I must have missed it on Ancestry.
ATB
Christopher
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Hello All
I can now clear up some of the confusion, thanks to member kingkerswell.
Nellie Craig married William John Kerr Newell in Larne First Presbyterian Church on 24 Dec 1918. Hence Francis/Frank in Christchurch or elsewhere in NZ was not her husband. When and if they went to NZ remains to be confirmed.
When and if I find out more, I will clarify further. Once again, thanks to all those who helped. I wouldn't doubt that I'll need your kindness and services further!
All the best
Christopher