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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: iwccc on Wednesday 22 February 12 11:08 GMT (UK)
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I have come to a stand still - can't seem to find the marriage certificate of William Copland and Agnes Smith. I think William was born around 1787 and died 1863. Agnes was born 1776 and died 1848. I think their marriage would have been around 1812-1816. To date I can't seem to find a death certificate or marriage certificate. I am particularly interested in also finding out Williams parents names. The surname could be spelt Coupland. I believe they lived in Glasgow. Any suggestions or help would be appreciated. Thank you
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You have years for the deaths of these people. How do you know them? Do you have them on a gravestone ? Have you found them in a census anywhere? These details could help narrow things down.
Graham.
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Hi :)
Could this be William in 1851 -
http://www.maxwellancestry.com/census/51transcript.aspx?houseid=82117029
Some online trees have his death as 1863 Dumfries Dumfries(correct ?)
ev
Added - Submitted entry on IGI has his birth as 11th feb. 1787 and death as 27th june 1863 :-\
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thank you for your prompt reply The dates I have for births, marriages and death are all from public family tree research. As my family has William, after William after William I am keen to try and find source records such as death certificate or marriage certificate etc. Todate each one I pay for from Scotlands People seems to be the wrong one. It's all very confusing.
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Have you looked at this one -
William Coupland death 1863 Dumfries Dumfries , born 1786(SP)
freeCEN website has a transcription for 1841
High St. Dumfries Dumfries'shire
William Copland 50 provision dealer
Agnes Copland 55
John Copland 20 hair dresser
Ages look to have been rounded down as per census instructions
http://www.freecen.org.uk/
Looking at the index on SP for the 1861 census there is a William Coupland age 75 Dumfries Dumfries
ev
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I am trying to find the father and mother of William Coupland who was m. to 1. Agnes Smith b. 1776 and 2. Margaret Selby b. 1808 in Dumfries.
So far I have the death certificate of William Coupland (24th June, 1863) which shows that his father is 'John Coupland' - (Mason) and mother is Agnes Coupland.
On the other hand I have the IGI Record which shows that William Coupland b. 1787 was married to Agnes Smith about 1812 and that his parent was 'James Copland'
I have tried to resolve this but can't seem to find any other confirmation of which father is correct. Can anyone help ?
Of course when I find if it is John or James I will want to know his wife's name also. Thank you
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I am researching the Copland/Coupland Family Tree. I have gone back (with some evidence) to William Coupland b. 1787, d. 1863. I understand he was married to Agnes Smith and Margaret Selby.
* In the IGI Individual Record William Coupland (b. 11 FEb.1787) is shown as having James Copland and Agnes Smith as parents. His death is listed as 27 Jun 1863.
*On the Death Certificate of 24th June, 1863 William is shown as having John Coupland (mason) as father and Agnes Coupland as mother.(marriage about 1812 Dumfries)
My dilemma is how do I find out who William's father is? John or James?
Any help would be much appreciated. Thank you
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Have your looked at the 2 death entries on Scotlandpeople - they should show the spouses names which would lead you to the correct person. As the death was 1863 this is after registration began in Scotland.
Morag
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Have you seen if any of them have left wills? You can look on Scotlandspeople.
Judy
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I am just about at my wits end. For some years have been trying to take the family tree back a generation or two. My present dilemma is which William do I follow. So far I have William (hairdresser) born 1817 (m to Christina Bell and Fanny McKinnell) and he is recorded as being 'the lawful son of William and Agnes Copland). I have found lots of Coplands/Couplands that have an Agnes married to a William. How can I discern which one is my line? I need someone with a clear head - my head feels like it is full of cotton wool at present. Help please? I am at the point of giving up and finishing the family tree in the early 1800's......but it would be great to take it back further.
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Hi
Not my family but there is a tree on Ancestry with a baptism at Dumfries whihc matches place of birth on census
William Coupland 29.6.1817 s of William Grey Coupland and Agnes.
Various surnames given for Agnes.
Haven't got the time to look it up as my computer at the Library about to click off
Maybe that could help?
Ciderdrinker
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William Copland born 29/6/1817 at Dumfries has William Copland(f) and Agnes Smith (m) on SP.
hmcc
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I have William (hairdresser) born 1817 (m to Christina Bell and Fanny McKinnell) and he is recorded as being 'the lawful son of William and Agnes Copland).
Where did you find that specific phrase?
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1851 census- William Copland (32) born Georgetown, Dumfries, Hairdresser, widower. Lodger in household of Elizabeth Lawson, St.Andrews Street, Castle Douglas. Christina Copland (6) born Glasgow, Lanarks.
hmcc.
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No wonder there is confusion about this.
There are three existing threads asking similar questions about the same family
Threads merged.
From one of these I see that William Co(u)pland died in 1893, and that his death certificate says that his parents were William Co(u)pland and Agnes Smith. Does it say 'Agnes Co(u)pland MS Smith' or simply 'Agnes Smith'? And who was the informant? This matches the baptism on 29 June 1817 so I think it is safe enough to say that it is the same person. Have you seen the original baptism record? What does it say?
From another of these threads you say that you have the death certificate of William Co(u)pland who died in 1863, saying that his father's name was John and his mother's name was Agnes Co(u)pland. What is the name of his wife according to that certificate? And who was the informant? How exactly is his mother's name recorded?
An IGI listing is not to be trusted. Contrary to what it claims, it is not a record, it is an index listing. The one you have found is submitted, not indexed from an original record, so it is useful as a finding aid but cannot be relied on to be accurate. I see that is gives a marriage date of 1812, not on a specific date in that year or in a specific parish, which would have been stated if it had been indexed from an original document. There is no corresponding marriage record on Scotland's People. You need to track down the source of this marriage record to find out whether it actually exists and is not a guesstimate by the person who submitted it.
The index listing on SP of the death of William Co(u)pland in 1863 says he was 77. If that is accurate, that means that he was born some time in 1785 or 1786. The 1861 census says he was 75. That also implies a birth in 1785 or 1786. It also says that he was born in Kirkmahoe. The 1851 census says he was 65 and born in Kirkmahoe. All these pieces of information point to him being born in Kirkmahoe in 1785 or 1786.
There is a baptism of William Grey Coupland, son of John Coupland, in Kirkmahoe on 1 January 1786, who exactly matches the information you have about William Co(u)pland who died in 1863. Do you have any reason (other than the unreliable index listing in the IGI) to think that this William Grey Coupland is not the one you are looking for?
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Not my family but there is a tree on Ancestry with a baptism at Dumfries whihc matches place of birth on census
William Coupland 29.6.1817 s of William Grey Coupland and Agnes.
Various surnames given for Agnes.
Why flap about speculating about a tree on Inaccuracy when there is an original record on Scotland's People for the baptism of William Coupland, giving his mother's name as Agnes Smith?
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thanks GR2 - good suggestions - I will follow up thanks again
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Thanks ev, I cannot get into the link you posted - it says 'server error'. I appreciate your help
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Thanks for this suggestion tiki, I will try Scotlands people
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Good ideaJefferey, will try and check out if any wills have been left. Appreciate your help
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Thanks cider drinker, My issue is trying to prove that William Copland's father was William Grey Copland. or was it just William Copland? I appreciate your help.
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Thanks hmcc , I had missed that census. I appreciate your help
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Hi Forfarian, I found that specific phrase from the Old Parish Regiter 821/30244 Dumfries page 294 of 444 National Records of Scotland. thanks for your help
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Thanks again Forfarian, Lots of encouraging points. I appreciate your clear thinking and deductions. This has helped tremendously.
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Glad it was useful.
What follows is a bit of speculation.
I see that there are several baptisms of children of John Coupland in Kirkmahoe
John, baptised 16 September 1783
William Grey, 1 January 1786
James, 22 April 1791
Francis, 3 April 1793
Mary, 22 October 1797
Jean, 23 February 1800, mother's name Helen Sloan
Thomas, 25 December 1802, mother's name Nelly Sloan
I also note with interest a marriage of John Copland to Helen Sloane in Lochrutton on 18 November 1781.
And there are deaths of James Copland, aged 77, mother's surname Sloan, in Tinwald in 1868 and Francis Coupland, aged 66, mother's surname Slowan, in Mouswald in 1859.
It therefore occurs to me to wonder whether all of these children are siblings?
And is Jane Copland, who died in Morton in 1869 aged 68, perhaps one of them? I can't see obvious candidates for John, Thomas or Mary, but there are some possibles if their ages were not recorded accurately.
If you are interested in following this up, you could take a look at those death certificates and see if they are indeed children of John Co(u)pland and Helen/Nelly Sloan. If they are, I think they would point to William Grey Co(u)pland's mother being Helen Sloan.
And if so, it might be worth looking at the baptisms to see whether the names of any witnesses provide any useful clues to the parentage of John Co(u)pland and Helen Sloan.
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So far I have William .... and he is recorded as being 'the lawful son of William and Agnes Copland.
Actually, no, it doesn't say that. What the register says is Baptised .... 1817 .... June .... 29. William lawful son of William Copland and Agnes Smith, born 1817 .... 29 June. (My underlining).
This tells me that even though there is no surviving record of the marriage, the Session Clerk knew (or believed) that they were legally married.
It also tells me that any supposed index listing of this baptism that gives a different (or no) surname for Agnes is incorrect and should be disregarded.
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Thanks Forfarian, Once again you have clarified the details. Much appreciated.