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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: fred21 on Saturday 18 February 12 23:59 GMT (UK)
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Hi
The following information is what I have so far and I would like to fill in any gaps and trace this family further back.
John Robert Newman born 1862 in Bishopwearmouth, County Durham.
He was the youngest the 3 children, his 2 older sisters being Mary Jane born 1861 and Sarah Eleanor born 1857.
Their parents were John Thompson Newman and Mary Jane Watson.
John Thompson Newman was born in 1830 in Sunderland, Tyne and Wear. He married Mary Jane Watson in 1856 and was a Master Mariner.
He died at sea in 1862 when his ship the Tiberius disappeared at sea with all hands on its return voyage from New York to Sunderland. (I have a copy of the newspaper clipping which gives this information). Sadly his widow Mary Jane died the following year leaving the 3 young children as wards of their mother's brother Joseph.
John Thompson Newman was the son of John Newman (also a Master Mariner). This John Newman was, according to the census, born in Lynn, Norfolk and was married to Mary (last name was either Thompson or Routledge)
I have been unable to find any further information on John Newman from Norfolk and would appreciate any help as to where to look. I would also be interested in finding anything further out about Mary Jane Watson, the young widow who also died just a year after her husband.
Many thanks
PS Question: How does one record a death at sea when the place is unknown and even the exact date? Do I just put Died at sea and the year 1862?
Thanks again
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Hi
Not sure if you already have this information. Apologies if you do, but it has Mary Jane's mother...
1861 Census England Durham Bishopwearmouth South
RG9/3771/65/41
1 Walworth Street
WATSON
Sarah Head Wid 73 Butcher's Widow Durham Sunderland
Robert T NEWMAN Son in Law Marr 31 Master Mariner Merchant Service Durham Sunderland
Mary J NEWMAN Dau Marr 30 Durham Sunderland
Sarah E Grand Dau Unmarr 3 Durham Sunderland
Mary J Grand Dau Unmarr 6weeks Durham Sunderland
Isabella ? Serv Unmarr 19 General Servant Durham Sunderland
Karenlee
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If it this article you could just say 'Believed lost at sea after 14 Feb 1862'.
The Dundee Courier & Argus (Dundee, Scotland), Monday, May 26, 1862
Loss of Grain-Laden Vessels - The barque Tiberius, 475 tons, which sailed, grain-laden, from New York for Sunderland on 14th Feb., has not since been heard of, and the time which has elapsed, leaves very little room for doubt that both vessel and crew have perished. The vessel was commanded by Captain Robert Thompson Newman, Bishopwearmouth, but it is believed that none of the crew who sailed in her from Sunderland started on the return voyage. The Tiberius was the property of Messrs. Gourley, of Sunderland, and was built on the Wear in 1854. There are three or four more vessels belonging to Sunderland amissing on the homeward passage from New York, and the total number reported lost and missing on the same voyage since November last will not be under sixty sail, all grain laden.
Ian C
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Hi
Working backwards using Sarah WATSON's details and I found...
1851 Census England Durham South Bishopwearmouth
HO107/2396/415/6
265 High Street
WATSON
Sarah Head Wid 64 Annuitant Durham Bishopwearmouth
Joseph C Son Unmarr 21 Butcher Durham Bishopwearmouth
Mary Jane Dau Unmarr 19 Durham Bishopwearmouth
Jane Ann SIMPSON Serv Unmarr 19 House Servant Durham Bishopwearmouth
Karenlee
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Familysearch has Robert Thompson NEWMAN born 29 Sep 1830, Sunderland, parents John NEWMAN and Mary ROUTLEDGE.
Also has a couple of Robert Thompson NEWMANs baptised in 1859, parents Robert Thompson NEWMAN and Mary Jane.
Ian C
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1841 Census England Durham South Bishopwearmouth
HO107/309/8/9
Walworth Street
WATSON
John 40 Butcher Born in this County
Sarah 50 Born in this County
Mary Jane 9 Born in this County
Jane CLARK 90 Independent Not Born in this County
Isabella STEVEN? 15 Female Servant Born in Scotland
Sarah EDEN Female Servant Born in this County
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1851 suggests that Mary's maiden name was Thompson:-
John Newman 50 occ Master Mariner b Lynn
Mary 48 b Barnard Castle
Robert T 20 occ Mariner b Sunderland
Hannah 16 b Sunderland
John 13 b Sunderland
Mary J 7 b Bishop Wearmouth
Margaret Thompson 74 Mother in Law b Barnard Castle
Residing at 61, Wear Street, Sunderland
Census Ref HO107/2396/139/58
Keyboard86
Hmm that Family Search birth throws a spanner in the works!
In 1841 Margaret Thompson aged 60 is with Mary/Robert/Hannah/John at Low Quay, Sunderland Census Ref HO107/321/ 11/20/ 34
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Familysearch has a marriage of John NEWMAN and Mary ROUTLEDGE, 19 Aug 1827, Bishop-Wearmouth.
She might have been a widow, or her mother married again.
Ian C
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Familysearch.org has
Baptisms
Bishopwearmouth Durham
23rd Oct 1831
Mary Jane WATSON
Father = John WATSON of King Street
Mother = Sarah WATSON
14th Aug 1829
Joseph Clark WATSON
Father = John WATSON of King Street
Mother = Sarah WATSON
Marriages
Bishopwearmouth Durham
1st July 1827
John WATSON
Sarah CLARK
Notation shows Sarah CLARK as being married?? Do they mean Widowed?
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Hey Keyboard and Ian
One would think that John's mother might well have been a THOMPSON at some point given that he has that name. Could well be that Mary THOMPSON married ROUTLEDGE then NEWMAN??
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Thanks so much everyone for all your information. Mary Thompson/Routledge always did confuse me - never thought that it meant she might of been married before or that her mother had remarried! It has given me something to think about.
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Well it looks like I may of solved some of the mystery surrounding the confusion with the Routledge/Thompson connection.
Mary was born Mary Routledge 1 Aug 1802, Barnard Castle, Durham to a Margaret Routledge no father mentioned.
The mother (Margaret) later on married a John Thompson 28 Jan 1809 Brampton, Cumberland.
This explains why on the census and marriage details for Mary and her husband John Newman that Mary is down as Mary Routledge but her mother is down as Margaret Thompson (mother-in-law).
I think it is also possible that John Thompson may of been Mary's father as she used this name as a middle name for her son Robert and the Thompson appears in the family several times as a middle name.
There are unfortunately several contenders for Margaret Routledge's birth but hopefully I will be able to trace the correct one. John Thompson will be alot harder to trace but without knowing for sure if he was Mary's father I possibly can leave him for now.
Still no joy on finding John Newman born c1801 in Lynn, Norfolk (occupation Master Mariner).
If anyone has any ideas on how to trace him it would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks everyone for the help so far it really helped me to think outside of the box and solve the riddle of Routledge/Thompson.
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Hi, I've done a bit of research on The Newman family, and they married into the Honneyman family; Edward Forster Honneyman married Mary Jane Newman the Daughter of Robert Thompson Newman, they emigrated to Massachusetts around 1896 and lived (almost) happily ever after.
They left a lot of Descendants over there.
One of them, Victor Edward Newman Honneyman lived to be 103. He was my Grand-dads' Cousin.
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sne31 said (in the Bambrough thread/topic at http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=581065.9 ) :
"Your great grandmother was the daughter of John Robert Newman who was the son of Robert Thompson Newman whose father was John Newman and it all goes back apparently at this time to 1797 when Robert Thompson was born. That is really on your great grandmater's side so it may not be of interest to you if you are following the blood line of the Bambroughs. .... My sister lives in Auckland and will look through old papers and maybe come up with something else. Your great grandmother's sister 'Hettie' married a Kit Thirkell who lived in Horden in the 60's so maybe there maybe someone in that family who has more information on your family."
Two questions:
1. I can't find any Robert Thompson born 1797 in web/net & myheritage etc searchs, and/or how he ties in with the Newman/Thompson line? John Thompson married in 1809, is it his brother perhaps?
Is it this Rob Thompson http://ghgraham.org/robertthompson1797.html ?
2. Does Hettie/Nettie stand for Henriette or Henrietta or Harriet or Harriette?
Also a question from the first two pages here:
3. Also in Fred's original post he said John Thompson Newman b1860 while later posts said for the same person in the same generation place Robert Thompson Newman b 1829. I assume John Thompson Newman was a mistake as RTN seems correct according to all the later posts and other sites i found? Does JTN fit in somewhere else though (perhaps confusion with john robert newman b1862?)?
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Apparently it is Ethel (Ettie) Newman/Thirkell, not Hettie/Nettie [Henrietta/Henriette/Harriet/Harriette] Newman/Thirkell.
Sean B.