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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Dumfriesshire => Topic started by: Southpaw on Saturday 18 February 12 09:46 GMT (UK)
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There are records of two people named James McKnight having been born in Moffat, Dumfriesshire around 1800. These James McKnights were born respectively to John McKnight and Mary Johnston, and Thomas McKnight and Janet Johnston.
Various researchers have claimed that James McKnight from Moffat is their ancestor. These two James McKnights have apparently married Mary Young, Jane Neilson, Sarah Wallace and Mary Bell.
The James McKnights could have married twice or one perhaps married three times. It could be that there were more James McKnights born in Moffat around this time. Or, are some researchers making a mistake, and claiming the wrong James McKnight.
My own interest is the James McKnight who married or was the partner of Mary Bell.
Is anyone out their researching this family?
I know of a lady from Hampshire who has done excellent work with this family. Also a gentleman from Lanark.
Is there anyone else out there ?
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Southpaw, this one sounds fun! I had, before I managed to untangle them, two Margaret Mansells who were first cousins born 4 months apart in the same town so you have my sympathy.
When did 'your' James McKight die? I presume the marriages took place prior to 1855 but if he lived to 55 or over then his death certificate should show his father's name, which would at least clarify which couple were his parents.
That said you may already have all this, and just be looking for others researching him which I'm not, but if you are still trying to untangle hopefully Scotland's People and the death certificate could help?
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p.s. again you may already have all of this, but what about the census from 1841 on, and the births for children of 'your' James and Mary Bell? Can you let us know the details of what you already have confirmed and what you are looking to establish?
If all you are looking to do is to link up with other relatives, then ignore this
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Maggie, thanks for taking an interest.
I cannot find his death. I have found Mary Bell in the 1841 Census. Her son James McKnight (yip another one) is staying with another family. Staying with Mary Bell is a girl who would become her son’s wife.
Mary is using her maiden name in the Census. Would this indicate that she never married? That’s a possibility.
Another researcher has indicated that James married another woman, and had a large family with her. In this large family there is no “James.” This might indicate that he already had a son called James ie the one he had with Mary Bell. Or, he could have had a son called James who died.
The James who had the large family appears in Lanark, and has a different occupation. The dates tie up, but there is no factual evidence.
Ultimately, I’m trying to establish if the James McKnight who married (or was the partner of) Mary Bell was one of the McKnight’s born in Moffat around 1800.
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Well, obviously the plot thickens!
The fact that Mary Bell uses her own name in the 1841 census may indicate they didn't marry, but could equally indicate that she is a widow. Women in Scotland don't necessarily use their husband's names, some not at all, some only during the time of the marriage and revert to 'themselves' on widowhood.
You say that her son Jame McKnight is staying with another family. What can you tell us about him? Marriage / death date, approx birth date etc. I know you will have all of this already, but for anyone coming in at this point trying to help we may need to come forward a bit in order to work backwards (if that makes sense)
What about Mary / Jamesjnr in the 1851 census on? Mary's death certificate may well give details of her marriages, no guarantees but certainly my own gr.gr.grandmother's gave the names of both her husbands.
p.s. can you give me a reference or more detail of Mary, where she is, approx age etc, in 1841? I just took a look and the list is about a page long
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I've found a 24 year old James McKnight, General Labourer, in Moffat in the 1851 census. Married to Jessie, with 3 children, Angus Welsh, James (both age 3) and Edward (1).
Is he the son of Mary Bell?
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I can't find Mary's death.
Her son, James, died in 1886 in Glasgow, aged 59. He was married to Jessie Lachlan. She was staying with Mary Bell in the 1841 Census. Mary was 25 at that time and Jessie was 12. There was also a 4 month old baby staying with them - John McGregor. The McGregor name does not appear in my family.
The James, who died in Glasgow, was 21 at the time of the 1841 census. He was living with the Kennedy family. The householder was Jacob Kennedy. James called one of his sons Jacob ( my great grandfather.)
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I've found a 24 year old James McKnight, General Labourer, in Moffat in the 1851 census. Married to Jessie, with 3 children, Angus Welsh, James (both age 3) and Edward (1).
Is he the son of Mary Bell?
Yes, that's him. I've got all the information forward of that date. It's going backwards that's the problem.
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Great, now I know which James the son is - I've found James and Jessie in 1861 in Lanarkshire, whilst another James of approx the same age is still in Dumfriesshire married to a Helen.
At least now I know it's the James and Jessie line - not sure if this is any help as I'm moving forward rather than back but at least I know now which one he is Jacob was 8 in 1861, the Angus / James couple appear to be 15 and 13 rather than twins as indicated in 1841, and poor little Edward presumably died somewhere between 51 and 61 as there is a new Edward age 7 months.
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So what exactly does James's death certificate (Glasgow, 1886) say about his parents? That's where I was trying to get to.
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Southpaw, I think I'm missing something - can you give me more details on the 1841 census entry you have for Mary Bell and Jessie Lachlan?
I can't find either of them, and if Mary was 25 at that point, and James was 13 or 14, you have a very young mother indeed, but not impossible. I can't find them so I'm obviously searching wrongly somewhere
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James McKnight, Cotton Mill Tenter, Deceased
Mary McKnight, m/s Bell, Deceased
The death is recoded by a, son, Edward McKnight. So he is stating that they were married.
There is no record of their marriage in OPR's
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Southpaw, I think I'm missing something - can you give me more details on the 1841 census entry you have for Mary Bell and Jessie Lachlan?
I can't find either of them, and if Mary was 25 at that point, and James was 13 or 14, you have a very young mother indeed, but not impossible. I can't find them so I'm obviously searching wrongly somewhere
I was told that in that census there was leeway in ages and that Mary could be 28.
Piece: SCT1841/842 Place: Moffat -Dumfries-shire Enumeration District: 7
Civil Parish: Moffat Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: Moffat Village
Folio: 7 Page: 4
Address: Boghall
BELL Mary F 25 Dumfries-shire
MCGREGOR John M 4m Dumfries-shire
LAUCHLIN Jesie F 12 Dumfries-shire
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Southpaw, I think I'm missing something - can you give me more details on the 1841 census entry you have for Mary Bell and Jessie Lachlan?
I can't find either of them, and if Mary was 25 at that point, and James was 13 or 14, you have a very young mother indeed, but not impossible. I can't find them so I'm obviously searching wrongly somewhere
From Scotland's People:
Enumerators were instructed to round down the ages of persons 15 years and over to the nearest five years. Hence a given age of 28 would be recorded as 25, one of 63 as 60 and so on. If a person lied about their age, this, combined with the rounding down, could severely distort the actual age. You will find instances where enumerators did not adhere to this instruction on age and inserted the given age.
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Southpaw, thanks for all that. I do appreciate you must think I'm faffing about with things you already know, but I don't know them and am trying to build some sort of a picture to work back from, though I do realise why you have found it so frustrating, it's a real puzzle.
So James and Jessie married in Moffat on 30 September 1845, and the only fact it confirms is that they are both from Moffat. One online tree gives that marriage date for both James and Jessie, and for James Snr and Mary Bell, which would be unusual, but the records certainly don't bear that out.
The number of possible marriages for your James Snr and his namesakes is considerable. You already mentioned:
" Various researchers have claimed that James McKnight from Moffat is their ancestor. These two James McKnights have apparently married Mary Young, Jane Neilson, Sarah Wallace and Mary Bell. "
In 1829 there is a marriage to Janet Sloan, and in 1836 to Ann Fraser. Both of those were in Dumfries.
I now completely understand the nature of your brick wall. I'll keep on trying, but but hope for your sake that someone else will have a magic answer for you.
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Thanks for your help.
I don't think I'll ever unravel this one. :(
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I have james McKnight babtised 5 oct 1800 moffat dumfrieshire.......wife was jane nelson .....they had seven children all born in new lanark,lanarkshire....his occupation was a wood turner he died 21 jul 1862 castlehill,lanark and his wife died 14 mar 1888 thistle street gorbals Glasgow ....on his death cert parent listed as john mcknight ...tailor..and mary ...??......on his babtised cert parents john McKnight... tailor....at moffat and mary Johnston .........any reply about this family
cheers
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I have james McKnight babtised 5 oct 1800 moffat dumfrieshire.......wife was jane nelson .....they had seven children all born in new lanark,lanarkshire....his occupation was a wood turner he died 21 jul 1862 castlehill,lanark and his wife died 14 mar 1888 thistle street gorbals Glasgow ....on his death cert parent listed as john mcknight ...tailor..and mary ...??......on his babtised cert parents john McKnight... tailor....at moffat and mary Johnston .........any reply about this family
cheers
I'm aware of this family, but can't find a connection between this James, and my James.
My James had a son with Mary Bell.
I have researched your family. I'm aware that they lived in the Laurieston / Gorbals area. I know Jane Neilson was buried in the Southern Necropolis.
I believe James died as a result of an accident at a mill in Lanark.
I know someone who believes that my James McKnight is the man who married Mary Neilson, and had a previous relationship with Mary Bell. However there is no evidence, although it remains a possibility.