RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => South Africa => Topic started by: SandraAust on Tuesday 14 February 12 06:10 GMT (UK)
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Menase married Ada LEVY in Leeds, West Yorkshire, England in 1913.
Family history states that shortly afterwards they moved to South Africa where 2 daughters, Irene and Hazel were born. When Ada's brother died in Australia in 1950, the newspaper notice stated that Ada was deceased but neither her husband or children were mentioned.
Ada was born in Leeds in 1885 but the age and birthplace of Menase are unknown. He wasn't on the England 1911 census so must have been there very briefly before marrying Ada then moving away.
I have no idea what part of SA they moved to or even the year but would love to have any information that can narrow down the search and maybe even find their daughters (or grandchildren) though they would be deceased by now I would imagine.
Keeping my fingers crossed.
Sandra
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hi,,do you know exactly when ada and menasa were married? only i can see a departure record for an M Hilkowitz and a mrs Hilkowitz leaving Southampton for East London,South Africa,,,but the voyage is early in the year of 1913?
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Boy that was quick - you're helping me on 2 different parts of the forum!
I only have March qtr 1913 so early in the year would be quite possible for travelling.
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Don't know what other info you have but with a quick check I have found an entry for Ada Hilkowitz
Surname: Hilkowitz
First Name: Ada
Heb Name: Ada B Simcha
Date of Death: 10 January 1937
Cemetery: King Williamstown
By the way - King Williams Town is in the Eastern Cape, about 70Km's from East London, South Africa
ShashF
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well.....the record is for a Mr M Hilkowitz he is b c1883 he is a general dealer.....traveling on the same ship is a Mrs Hilkowitz.
The ship is the BRITON....it left Southampton on 8 March 1913 bound for East London South Africa.
I will just check and see if it gave an age for the Mrs Hilkowitz. ;)
she is down as being born 1890 ???
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Cape Town archive (KAB) has these on record,(there are others)
Application for naturalization by Menase Hilkovitz in 1903 and 1908 and,
Depot: KAB
Source:MOOC
Volume No: 6/9/16076
Reference:2722/49
Description: Hilkovitz,Menase. Estate Papers
Date:1949
Depot:KAB
Source:MOOC
Volume No: 6/9/4872
Reference:53314, Description: Hilkovitz, Ada Cecilia. nee Levy, Estate Papers, Date 1937
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A big thank-you for all 3 wonderfully informative replies!
ShashF - what is Ancestry24? Is it a part of ancestry.com?
Braw - would I be correct in assuming that 1949 and 1937 as quoted for estate papers are the death years? It would appear so for Ada at least per ShasF's information.
gortonboy - I'm a bit worried about her age as I finally tracked a marriage date on the site: http://www.jewishgen.org/jcr-uk/Leeds.htm and this also quoted her as younger but more worrying was naming her father as Joshua rather than Harris. It's a pity the mother wasn't named to make it a bit clearer. These people were my late father-in-laws family and he gave me the details about 20 years ago - well before anyone in the family thought about tracing the family tree and so no reason to think we had made an error and picked the wrong family for tracing. There has never been any reason to believe that Ada that married Menase was a different woman.
Mmmmm..... Well at least a huge amount has been cleared up in just one night which is wonderful. Now to figure out if I really do have the correct Ada.
Thank you for your help everyone!
Sandra
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Not sure if Ancestry24 is part of Ancestry - it might be the South African version but I'm open to correction. I took out a subscription last year hoping to find info on my missing lot but not having much luck at the moment.
ShashF
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Hi Sandra,
It would be their death years and the Death notices should be included in their Estate files and if you are lucky the names of their parents and children will be on their DN.
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Not sure if Ancestry24 is part of Ancestry - it might be the South African version but I'm open to correction. I took out a subscription last year hoping to find info on my missing lot but not having much luck at the moment.
ShashF
Just took a look and it seems to be purely SA records. I pay a small fortune already for the other Ancestry so can't really justify a subscription for only 2 family members.
Oh well!
Sandra
:)
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Hi Sandra,
It would be their death years and the Death notices should be included in their Estate files and if you are lucky the names of their parents and children will be on their DN.
Thank you Braw.
Not sure about yet another subscription to add to my expenses though it would be great to have this info. Thinking, thinking..............
Sandra
:D
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Hi there,
you need to get hold of those death notices that are in the Cape Town archives. they will give you all the info you need to proceed further as there may be a will attached to them.
Ruth
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Thanks Ruth. I'll need to check further into that.
Sandra
:)
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Menase Hilcovitz is the brother of my partner's grandmother. He was in Leeds for the 1901 Census. How are you connected?
Howard
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Hello Howard,
My husband's Great Aunt Ada LEVY was his wife - IF I have the correct family. I was told many years ago by my late father in law that his Aunt Ada had married Menase and moved to South Africa so it must be the same man. I managed to check some online synagogue records a while back and it quoted her father as Joshua when it was actually Harris. This has me completely confused.
I'd love to hear more from you if your partner knows any more about the family. I believe that they had 2 daughters but haven't been able to track them down as yet.
Sandra :)
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Sandra
Menase and Ada had three children: Rene, Hazel and Phyllis. I'm not sure what happened to them but can ask my partner's cousin.
Hamburg shipping lists show Menase coming to the UK aged 17 in 1900 and he is on the 1901 census in Leeds aged 18.
(1) Menase married Ada on 19 February 1913. On the JewishGen record Ada's age is 23, her address is 36 Grant Street, Leeds, her name is Ada Levey, her fathers name is Joshua and his occupation is general dealer.
(2) In the 1911 census in Leeds there is an Ada Levy (spelling variant) age 23, the address is 15 Livingstone Place and her father is Harris Levy.
So there are a number of discrepancies between (1) and (2).
How do you know that her father's name was Harris? This name was usually an English substitute for a Hebrew name (eg Aaron or Haim).
Do you know the names of Ada's siblings ? In (2) they are Solomon, Sarah, Rebecca and Joseph.
Howard
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PS.
In (2) her father's occupation is hawker/green grocer.
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PPS
Do you know the Hebrew name (from gravestone if he had a Jewish funeral) of Ada brother who died in Australia? In an earlier post you quoted her Hebrew name as 'b(at) Simcha'. So her father's Hebrew name was Simcha which fits with neither Joshua nor Harris!
In an earlier post someone mentioned a naturalisation application for Menase. Did you obtain a copy?
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Hi Howard,
I'll answer each of your last 3 posts in order:
The Ada you found in Livingstone Place is the one that I believe I am looking for. Her father has always been known as Harris within the family. He has been named as such on the death records of the children that died here and I have seen it in the past on the marriage certificate of his son (my husband's Grandfather) that was always known as Samuel. It was Sam who died here in 1950. His death notice mentions Ada as a deceased sister but doesn't give her surname.
Ada's sister Dora died here in 1951 and again Ada was mentioned without her surname.
I searched the census and couldn't find anyone listed at 36 Grant St though plenty of others in the same street.
My father in law knew that he had cousins (I)rene & Hazel but never mentioned Phyllis.
I found no Ada Levy/Levey with a father Joshua in 1911 or 1901.
I've never visited Sam's grave so have no idea what his Hebrew name could be. I'll try to take a visit soon and let you know what I find.
I didn't purchase a copy of the naturalisation certificate.
That's about it for tonight.
Catch up again soon.
Sandra
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Sandra
The ROOTWEB entry for Ada's burial gives her Hebrew name as Ada b(at) Tzvi not Ada b(at) Simcha!
Tzvi is the Hebrew for deer which in Yiddish is Hirsh (Hirshel for short). In England Hirsh was often rendered as Harris (in Russia is was written Gersh - no H in Cyrilic - which often became Grisha).
So looks like their wedding certificate - or at least the JewishGen transcription -got her father's name wrong.
Btw the ROOTWEB entry for Manase's buruial names the three daughters.
Howard
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Sandra
I found a record of a Leeds Levi/Levy family in a database that could be the same as that in the 1911 census. The children’s names match those in the 1911 census but the dates of birth don’t – could have been a miscalculation since some of the data is derived from the ages in the 1891 and 1901 censuses.
The source is:
www.british-jewry.org.uk/leedsjewry
The family is:
Harris (DoB 1852)
Annie (nee Cohen, DoB 1853)
Children:
Solomon (DoB 1875), married Fanny (nee Metzick) in 1893
Levi (DoB 1877)
Dora (DoB 1878)
Samuel (DoB 1876)
Rebecca (DoB 1881)
Ada (DoB 1884)
Louie (DoB 1887)
Joseph (DoB 1890)
Howard
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Hello again Howard,
Thank you for the additional information and the link. I've checked it and some of the information they've included doesn't seem to have been verified in any way so I've emailed them to follow up on some details. For example the mention of Solomon marrying Fanny METZICK is incorrect as he died in Melbourne in 1939 as a bachelor.
I've checked the burial information for Samuel (Ada's brother) and it states the following:
His Hebrew name is given as Shmuel Ben Zvi and his father as Zvi. I have no idea what any of this means so if you could shed some light on it I would appreciate it.
Have a lovely weekend.
Regards,
Sandra
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Sandra
The fact that Samuel's Hebrew name is Shmuel (Samuel) Ben (son of) Tzvi and Ada's was Ada B (short for Bat, daughter of) Tzvi confirms that this is the same family. Since Harris is often an English version of Hirsh (ie Tzvi) the father's name on the Jewish-Gen record of the Menashe-Ada marriage certificate must be wrong.
As to Harris Levi family in the Leeds 1891 & 1901 census based (probably plus linked marriage records) versus the family in the 1911 census. They may not be the same or as you suggest they've linked the wrong records. Solomon is single in the 1911 documant - although he could have been divorced!
I've put out feelers to find if Rene, Hazel and Phyllis are alive, where they subsequently lived, married names etc. Will let you know if I hear anything.
Howard
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Thank you so much for all your help Howard - I would have been lost without it.
Best wishes,
Sandra
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Howard
Here is the reply I received from the database previously discussed:
Further to my email of earlier today I can confirm that this is more or less definitely the right burial. The Hebrew reads:
Yehoshua Heschel - Joshua Heschel Son of Abraham Eliezer Passed away in the his 56th year On Friday 13th Sivan 5672
This would also confirm the daughter's marriage discussed in another email.
I will amend the database.
So it appears that Ada quoting her father as Joshua is in fact correct and now we also have the name of "Harris's" father - Abraham Eliezer (Elijah???)
Sandra
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Sandra
Brilliant. In which city did the burial take place? The Hebrew date corresponds to May 1912.
So the name problem is solved. Traditionally Jewish men have two first names (and until 18-19 century in most countries no family name), one for religious/legal purposes in Hebrew and one for secular purposes usually in Yiddish or the local language but could also be Hebrew. So Yehoshua was his religous name - hence the marriage register - and Hershel (in Yiddish) or Tzi (Hebrew version) or Harris (English version) his everyday name.
Eliezer is a different name to Elijah.
Howard
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Hi Howard,
Harris' burial is at Leeds - Beth Hamedrash Hagadol Hilltop Cemetery L/5. Unfortunately the cemetery is closed apparently due to severe subsidence due to the mining that had taken place in the past. I was able to get a photo of the headstone if you would like it. PM your email address if you like.
I wish I knew what had happened to Annie.
Sandra
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I think these might be my grandparents! They had a third daughter, Phyllis who was my mother. They lived in Butterworth in the Transkei.
Megan
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Megan
It's a few years since you posted that your mother was born Phyllis Hilkovitz and hence a second cousin of my wife.
I have recently found a possible birth record of Phyllis's father, Menashe, in Pumpenai, Lithuania. If correct, this gives the name of his father, grandfather, uncles and cousins.
Do you have any documents giving the exact date/place of birth for Menashe? Are you in contact with the family of Phylilis's sisters Rene Gerber and Hazel Gluckman?
Howard