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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Sussex => England => Sussex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: suey on Saturday 14 May 05 13:17 BST (UK)
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A big ask, can someone help please...
Trying to find Elizabeth and George Naylor/Nailard Napp, I don't have ages for either of them :( however they married in Heathfield in May 1840.
Not sure when either of them died but they had two known children George Thomas born c1841 and Naomi born c1849.
Also in Heathfield Sarah Potten born c1786 with husband Thomas -
Thanks in advance
Suey
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They seem to be together ... Broadhurst Farm F 412
Sarah Potten Hd wid 65 Farmer 100 ac emp 1 b Mountfield
George serv 19 unm ag lab b Burwash
Henry son 37 unm b farmers son b Heathfield
Joseph son 26 Farmers son b Burwash
Thomas son 38 unm farmers son b Heathfield
Naomi Napp grand d 2 b Heathfield
Then some other Napps F 411 Swyfe
Hannah Hd wid 64 annuitant b Heathfield
George grandson 10
James grandson 10
James son wid 39 ag lab all b Heathfield
There is another family in Hailsham workhouse
Francis 8
Henry 10
Loanda 6 all orphans and scholars at the union school
No sign of the parents.
Andrea
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Andrea, Thank you very much..
Seems to confirm that George and Elizabeth the parents of Naomi have died prior to 1851.
They are a muddle this family..George aged 10 with Hannah should be Naomi's brother, looks like the Grannies took in a child each..
The two James's are my Great Great and Great Grandpa's ;D
Will check out Francis, Henry and Loanda at Hailsham.
Suey
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Hi Suey
Just spotted this in the 1841 census
HO107/ 1108/ 3/ Sched 21/ Page 1 - Swyfe Gate House, Heathfield
George Napp, 20 - Shoe m
Elizabeth Napp, 20
George Napp, 9months
All born in county of Sussex
Hope you were still looking for them
Chris in 1066
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Thank you Chris, Yes, I was still looking for George and Elizabeth, am so pleased to find them together with young George -
this has to be one of my saddest families, 7 known children, one died in infancy and the other 5 orphans by 1851. The eldest and the youngest were each taken in by their Grandmothers but the middle three, Francis, Henry and Loanda ended up in the workhouse :(
Suey
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They seem to be together ... Broadhurst Farm F 412
Sarah Potten Hd wid 65 Farmer 100 ac emp 1 b Mountfield
George serv 19 unm ag lab b Burwash
Henry son 37 unm b farmers son b Heathfield
Joseph son 26 Farmers son b Burwash
Thomas son 38 unm farmers son b Heathfield
Naomi Napp grand d 2 b Heathfield
Can anyone tell me, if they know it, the name of the above mentioned Sarah Potten's husband? My husband is a descendant of theirs and so far I haven't been able to find Mr Potten's name..... I'm thinking maybe 'Thomas', 'Henry' or 'Joseph' though. Any thoughts? suggestions?
btw my hubby is descended from them through Naomi Napp who married Henry (aka William) Ticehurst.
Thanks in advance!! Chrislb
PS Suey, I think we have had contact about this family before, both Nailard/Napp and Ticehurst's
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Hi
Suey's initial post above does say Sarah and husband Thomas so maybe she has full details?
Andrea
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Hi Andrea,
Yes she does mention Thomas and Sarah... but then Mrs Sarah Potten, widow, had a son Thomas and it didn't seem clear at the time that I looked at it!! If that makes sense??
So I guess that it is Thomas Potten then that is the father. Anyone got any details on him? like where he was born etc?
I have been away from the family search stuff for a while.....
Ciao! Chris
PS ok Andrea I went and reread the initial post from Sue.... yes it does say Sarah and husband Thomas... I must have missed that!! lol blame it on too long away from the family search and ... whatever *shrug* I haven't seen anything anywhere that mentions that Sarah's husband was Thomas which has been frustrating for me. but then I am in Aus so can't get my grubby (or not so grubby) little hands on any physical records...
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I did look for a marriage in Sussex for a Thomas to a Sarah and failed to find one so it would be interesting to know the source of the "husband Thomas" information.
After looking in 1841 for George I realised that he is not a son - he is a servant and the only one who fits in 1841 is the 9 year old son of Mary Potten so tracing them may lead back to the father if they are relatives.
HO 107 1108/1 F7 p7
Cottage at Wheel Burwash
Mary Potten 30
George 9
John 7
Henry 4
Thomason? 2 all born in county
Just trying a bit of lateral thinking - for want of any other clues!
Andrea
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1841 possible at Fairlight HO 107/9/5 F19 p3
Thomas Pottin 60 Ind
Sarah 55
Ann 14 all born in county
The boys appear to be out as farm servants around the place.
Maybe this is what Suey has.
Andrea
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Well it's possible I guess..... I can't recall whether I have seen that entry or not, it's been a while and I'm out of touch... and I can't check it easily 'cause my ancestry.com membership has lapsed........
I do know that Sarah was a widow and living on Broadhurst farm (as previously noted)in 1851 and the George that was with her then I think was a nephew maybe or some other such close relative.
Is it possible to have a look at Broadhurst farm in 1841 and see who was living there?
Thomas Potten and Sarah and daughter Ann does seem to fit though as Ann looks the right age (more or less) to be 'our' Sarahs Ann as she was born around 1828.
It's possible that Thomas and Sarah were married in Kent maybe 'cause I have seen other Potten's who are from Kent, and I had wondered about that previously. Also Sarah the widow's eldest son was called Thomas.... and since the first child was usually named after a parent or the grandparents it looks likely to have been Thomas.
Has anyone seen a death registration for Thomas Potten Snr? Another thing to check maybe, and maybe Sarah's death cert might be of help (you know, states "widow of such and such"??).
*sigh* all things to think about... and possibly Sue already has looked into all this... hello Sue?? :D
Ciao!!
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Hi again,
I have found what could be both Thomas Potten Snr's death record and Sarah Potten's. The ages and locations kind of fit....
Deaths Sept 1848 Potten, Thomas vol 7 pg 264 Hailsham district (no age) - this fits as he was alive in 1841 and deceased in 1851. Death cert would help... but it looks like a good match.
Deaths Mar 1868 Potten, Sarah age 81 vol 2b pg 53 Ticehurst district - this I am not so certain of although it looks good - the age is right, the district I am not so sure of but there is no reason why she couldn't have been in that area at that time. Would have to get death certificate though to be certain!
Ciao! Chris.
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Hello Chris - just about every Potten in Sussex thoroughly researched by Neil is here on his website.
www.rogers-davis.com
Thomas parents are Neri Potten and Margaret Carley.
No marriage has been found for Thomas and Sarah so sadly we don't know her maiden name :(
1841 they are at Marley Downs Farm, Fairlight
I have the same ref's for deaths for both Thomas and Sarah but not the certificates.....they are on the long list of wants ::)
Sarah is at Westdown Farm Burwash in 1861 with an assortment of family. RG9 570 F127 p2
Sarah Potten 75 farmer of 170 acres employs 3 labourers
Thomas son unm 49
Henry son unm 47
Joseph son mar 36
Harriett Potten (nee Waters) dil 26 (Joseph's wife)
Naomi N Napp g dau 12
George Waters g son 4
George Napp servant 20 (Naomi's older brother)
George Napp married Naomi Barden Oct 1868 they had one son George b1870 d1873. Naomi died 1874 George Snr died 1873 :'(
Suey
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Hi Sue,
Thanks for that! That saves me a lot of work now doesn't it??? ;) It's so much easier when someone else has done all the hard work ;)
I'm compiling a bit of a 'certs wanted' list myself - the more I look the more I find - bit of a catch 22 there hey! :D
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Thomas parents are Neri Potten and Margaret Carley.
The wills of Neri & Margaret Potten are transcribed (by Neil) on the Sussex-OPC site for Burwash.
Neri: "I give and bequeath unto my son Thomas Potten the sum of sixty pounds of lawful money to be paid to him within a twelvemonth and a day after my decease."
Margaret: "I give and bequeath unto my son Thomas Potten ... all and every my ready monies and securities for money, monies in the public stocks or bonds, household goods, implements of household, plate, linen, china, books, goods, chattels, cattle, husbandary tackle, debts, effects and personal estate whatsoever and wheresoever and of what nature, kind or quality soever the same whereof I shall die possessed."
If anyone can tell me the given name of the SANDS witness to Neri's will I'd be very grateful.
Cheers,
Stovepipe
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Re: Neri Pottens Will
Sadly, the name of Neri's holding - tenements are not mentioned in his will of which I have a copy since the witnesses are ancestors of mine. Stephen Langrige being my 4X's Great Grandfather and the Sands witness has a very good chance of being of being his son-in-law Richard (perhaps foreshortened on the original will to Rch'd or similar and near the edge of the scroll obliterated at some stage in its storage).
The Pottens appear be located around the Heathfield - Burwash boundaries in a later generation this area now known as Burwash Weald was then called Burwash Wheel after a local tavern colloq. known as 'The Catherine Wheel'- after Catherine of Braganza ??? My own research locates Richard and Philadelphia (nee Langridge) at Burwash Wheel in the 1780's. Window Tax returns place a Richard Sands at The Pound Farm, Burwash Wheel and states he tenants the farm for a Thomas Balcomb, few properties were eligible to pay this tax, windows being an indicator of wealth. This is intriguing as Thomas Balcomb was a witness at his marriage to Philadelphia in Burwash. Interestingly, Richard Sands himself also left a will, proved in 1832.
Undoubtedly, the Pottens and the Sands and Langridges (with their Mountfield connections in common with the Pottens?) knew each other and were reasonably comfortable in comparison to many around them. Richard was able to sign at his marriage. They were people of a certain standard if not gentlemen of substance.
I believe the witnesses to Neri Pottens Will are my relative Stephen Langridge and very possibly Richard Sands or at the outside his father.
M.Ann
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Hi
A possible for Thomas Potten and Sarah's marriage
Thomas Potten to Sarah French 29 Apr 1805 in Hastings
And burial for Sarah
Sarah POTTEN buried on 16 Jan 1868 Age 81y at Heathfield Cade St.Independent
'of Burwash'
Jan ;)
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Hi
A possible for Thomas Potten and Sarah's marriage
Thomas Potten to Sarah French 29 Apr 1805 in Hastings
And burial for Sarah
Sarah POTTEN buried on 16 Jan 1868 Age 81y at Heathfield Cade St.Independent
'of Burwash'
Jan ;)
Hi Jan - is your marriage from the IGI because we have seen that one and the SMI very helpfully says he is Thomas POTTER of St Mary in the Castle Hastings :-\
Worth following up though...
Where did you find the burial for Sarah ? that must be her, thank you :D
Suey
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Hi
Looks like the marriage isn't yours then even if it is Potten rather than Potter - still as you say worth checking out.
Have PM'd you
Jan ;)
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Hi
A possible for Thomas Potten and Sarah's marriage
Thomas Potten to Sarah French 29 Apr 1805 in Hastings
Jan ;)
Hi Jan - is your marriage from the IGI because we have seen that one and the SMI very helpfully says he is Thomas POTTER of St Mary in the Castle Hastings :-\
Worth following up though...
Suey
I've had another look at this marriage - is it Thomas Potten mistranscribed? :-\
Extra info says Thomas of St Mary in the Castle...I'm kind of hoping this was noted because he was simply living in that area of Hastings at the time of his marriage while getting married in another....
This Potten family were for the most part found in and around Burwash/Heathfield, except in 1841 when they are at Fairlight, a short step from Hastings and not too far from Mountfield.
Sarah is consistant with yob 1786 and pob Mountfield. I took a look at sfhg trascriptions for Mountfield and there among an assortment of Sarah's is SARAH FRENCH baptised 5th January 1786
None of the other Sarah's born around that date appear to be married to anyone with a similar surname to Potten or Potter
Can't see a Thomas Potter baptised in Hastings - can't see a Potter couple married in Hastings as prospective parents for him :-\
The same applies to Sarah French... any avenue I've not covered ?
I'm trying to convince myself this is the right marriage but something still does not sit quite right.....
Suey
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Does look good suey
Have you checked for any Potter/Potten baptisms in Hastings around the right time with parents Thomas and Sarah?
Jan ;)
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Hi Jan, yes just double checked on sfhg no Potters or Pottens in Hastings until a lot later....
Thomas and Sarah were back in Burwash by 1807 as first known child Sarah was baptised there in August and they're in Burwash or Heathfield right up to son George's birth in 1832.
I guess that's why I'm dithering over the marriage.
Thomas' mother did leave him a few bob, she died 1803 so I spose he could have been taking the sea air in Hastings when he meets and marries Sarah ;D
Suey
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I know what you mean about people marrying in unexpected places - I eventually found a marriage for one of my couples in Lyme Regis, Dorset when he was from Axmouth, Devon and she from Honiton, Devon. Like your case it wasn't that far away in miles but unexpected - following a similar course to you I am 99.9% sure I have the right couple. How about the witnesses? any help? And I guess if at some point you could check the original entry?
The fact that Sarah and Thomas were from 2 non-neighbouring parishes seems to make it more likely they would marry in an unexpected place: they had to meet somehow. That, however, could be wishful thinking on my part as it applies to my couple too!
Jan ;)
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I think we get used to our early ancestors getting married in the home parish so even a few miles away tends to throw up doubts.
I've only seen the transcriptions so don't have witnesses, a look at the original would be good.
I'll add this Sarah to the tree with my notes...
any other Potten/French researcher looking in on this can then make up their own mind, and if anyone can get a look at the original parish register sometime that would be a bonus :D
Sarah's baptism from Mountfield All Saints - 5th Jan 1786 to parents Richard and Elizabeth.
Richard French widw m Elizabeth Peters 11th Dec 1783 Mountfield
1st marriage to Ann Martin (lic) 30/03/1780 at Mountfield.
Suey
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Hi all
Does this baptism fit into your equation at all
St Mary-in-the-Castle, Hastings
13th March 1862 - Elizabeth Potten, daughter of Thomas & Sarah, Marine Cottages - Labourer
Chris in 1066
On re-reading the topic, it looks like it was 50 years too late
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I haven't been working on my family history for years but I was just having a look today= am very excited to see the marriage of Thomas Potten and Sarah French. I am a descendant of Thomas and Sarah. In 1990 I was in the East Sussex records office in Lewes and found the baptism of a Sarah French in Mountfield. As I knew Sarah was born in Mountfield, I had a feeling I had the right one, but I was never able to find the marriage! I also found a death fo Richard French (Sarah's father was Richard) in the Burwash burials, so it looks like the family moved there.
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Hi there
According to the Sussex Marriage Index, the Surname is listed as POTTER not POTTEN
Sussex Marriage Index:
Location: Hastings All Saints, East Sussex, Date: 29 Apr 1805:
Bride: Sarah FRENCH
Groom: Thomas POTTER, Hastings St.Mary in the Castle Parish
Chris in 1066
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I understand it is written as Potter, but in the absence of any other record, the fact that Potten is easily mistranscribed or misread, the baptismal record of a Sarah French in Mountfield of the right age, the appearance of the French family in Burwash a few years later, I am going with this one!
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Potten family, cottage 'at the wheel' Burwash Common. I have the family as Potten but there could be a transcription error.
During the late 1700's to early 1800's the Pottens lived on the same lane as The Pound Farm tenanted by my great, great, great grandfather Richard Sands. There was a Neri Potten - wife was Mary. Richard Sands and his father-in-law Stephen Langridge witnessed Neri's will a copy of which I have since it is held by The National Archives. If any Potten followers would like this please message me.
The Wheel was a notorious tavern - The Catherine of (Aragon or Braganza) known as the catherine wheel. Its proximity as a near neighbour and the murder of its landlord probably was instrumental in my ancestors move to Etchingham...and the Pottens to Heathfield maybe.
I too see the surname French in my wider tree. Ann French married Jeremiah Sands at Heathfield 7/3/1735. This man was My great, great, great grandfather Richards uncle.
I found a site called Funnellswood or was it Funnellsweb a genealogical site about the Funnell family and there is interesting reading about the Burwash area on the site if its still available. M.Ann
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How interesting, Ann! I would like a copy of Neri's will (or at least the information that is in it), please. I am not aware of a murder at the Burwash Wheel. Currently I am searching Sussex newspapers online and finding interesting information about my families around Burwash, Heathfield, Warbleton, and Herstmonceux.
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Hi Diana,
I have revisited my files having put them away for a while. The info regarding 'The Wheel at Burwash' is to be found in the book Crime, protest and popular politics in Southern England by John Rule.
I used to access the Burwash chapter through a link on a single name study site Funnells Wood with missing pages. That link is gone. Its not available as an E book and the chapters Google uses to preview it now are chapters referring to the SW of England. You can buy used copies from about £25
Another good study to have is the diary of John Coker Egerton the vicar of Burwash around 1850 called the Victorian Village that is variously available from booksellers, E bay and Amazon. In is mention of the death and postmortem of my great great grandfather Stephen Sands. Described as a shammer a decision was made to open him up on his death and he was so described as a fearful sufferer and found to have been a very sick man. The same man had served 3 days in prison in 1823 for the theft of hop poles. In 1824 he went on to commit the henious crime of stealing wood! These listings in the local Criminal Registers of 1823.
I have a copy of the Potten will which i can e mail you. Please send me a private message with your e mail address. M.Ann
Neri Potten was a neighbour of his parents who farmed at the Pound Farm Burwash Wheel they rented the farm from Thomas Balcombe for £6. 10s in 1785 and had 7 lights. Land Tax return. Potten may have been a miller. Richard Sands - Stephens father and Stephen Langridge - prob. Richards father-in-law witnessed Pottens Will. Richard Sands himself made a Will proved in 1832 and also got his dying son Richard to make a Will he died in 1822
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I was just re-visiting my Potten notes and for anyone still interested - we missed the obvious with the 1841 census. Thomas and Sarah Potten are at Fairlight with daughter Ann, also in the household is Elizabeth French aged 75.
The Sarah French baptism in Mountfield has parents Richard and Elizabeth. Proof positive I think! :D
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I was just re-visiting my Potten notes and for anyone still interested - we missed the obvious with the 1841 census. Thomas and Sarah Potten are at Fairlight with daughter Ann, also in the household is Elizabeth French aged 75.
The Sarah French baptism in Mountfield has parents Richard and Elizabeth. Proof positive I think! :D
It pays to revisit from time to time, surprising what you notice that you missed first time - glad that was the right marriage ;D
Jan ;)
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Thanks Jan, it does indeed. I've been looking for his burial (death reg Hailsham 1848) and realised that it was the same year that his daughter Mary died.
I looked at the Heathfield burials for that year and found him indexed on SFHG database as Thomas POLLEN aged 76 buried at Heathfield Cade Street on the 11th August 1848, Mary was buried on the 20th.
Suey
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Recently found the Will for Elizabeth Peters on ancestry. Proves beyond a doubt that she was Sarah French Potten’s mother. This led to other family wills and I was able to take Elizabeth back another generation.
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That's good news :)