RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Wexyuk on Sunday 12 February 12 18:15 GMT (UK)
-
Dear All,
I'm driving myself slowly insane so thought I'd put this to you all. I am trying to trace the origins of the parents of Alice Beatrice Reed who was born in Fulham in November 1891. I have a copy of her birth certificate which gives her parents' names as:
Harry Read, a journeyman bricklayer
Elizabeth Read, formerly Jameson
The address is 24 Church Path, Fulham.
I have the family in the 1901 census:
Harry Reed @ 34 b. Newmarket
Eliz @ 32 b. Fulham
Edith @ 14 b. Fulham
Alice @ 9 b. Fulham
Geo @ 5 b. Fulham
Eliz @ 2 b. Fulham
I can't find them in 1891 or 1911.
I found out yesterday that Harry Reed married Elizabeth Jamieson in Chelsea in March 1916. There are also further children:
Albert Ernest b. Sept 1911 Fulham (but only on indexes as a later addition)
Doris Lillian b. Sept 1914
The Elizabeth b. 1899 died in Chelsea in 1918.
Now, in the London Electoral Rolls I have Alice's household (155 Stephendale Road) with other occupants:
From 1918 - 1935:
Elizabeth Nelson
Harry Reed Nelson
From 1935 - 1939:
Elizabeth Sophia Reed
Harry Reed
(1936) Doris Lillian Reed
I can only assume that these are the same people.
I've found the birth of an Elizabeth Sophia Jamieson in Birmingham in 1870 and in 1881 she is living in Kensington with her father, James. She was christened in 1872 in Liverpool.
I'm going to have to order Harry and Elizabeth's marriage certificate but if anyone can find them in 1891 or 1911 I'd be eternally grateful. Daughter Edith married in 1902 and I have her in 1911 and son George is at an "Industrial School" in York in 1911.
Sorry this is so long but I thought it was best to put everything that I knew.
Thanks for any help!
Clare
P.S. There is no Harry Reed born in Newmarket. There's one in Bury St. Edmunds.
-
We can look for 1891 for you but 1911 lookups are not allowed as per
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,355486.0.html
-
I have all relevant subscriptions if people could just give a hint. It's not a lookup as such because I've already tried every possible combination of searches.
1891 would be fine though!
-
Hi Clare,
A tough one, isn't it...
You may have already checked this, but the 1891 census (6 months before Alice's birth) shows Emma OAKHAM (+7 children) living at 24 Church Path, Fulham - RG12/46, f 123, p 11
Probably no relation, but you never know.
Also I noticed that the electoral rolls give Harry as Henry Reed Nelson - he may therefore appear in the missing censuses as Henry.
Sorry, not much help, will keep looking.
Alexander
-
Hi Alexander,
Yep, I've tried Henry, Harry, Harold, no forename - you name it!
The family moved around a fair bit as in 1901 they are living in Walham Avenue in Fulham.
According to Charles Booth's poverty map of 1898, Church Path was a chronically poor area surrounded by slightly better off places.
It's the most frustrating family I've looked at - not appearing in censuses, incorrect birthplaces, marriages 30 years after children were born.
Ahhhhh!!!
Clare
-
I did find this birth and death:
Births Dec qtr. 1909
Reed, Harry Nelson, Fulham, vol. 1a: 280
Deaths Mar qtr. 1913
Reed, Harry N., 3, Fulham, vol. 1a: 445
He could be one of Harry and Elizabeth's children, having the Nelson middle name, though you'd need one of the certs to know for sure. But he should appear on the 1911 census somewhere...
-
I actually did find him in the 1911 census on the Isle of Wight with an Ada Reed aged 19 who appears to be his mother (living with her family). She was born on the Isle of Wight so it's difficult to see the connection (although very odd coincidence).
-
There goes that idea then! But I'm not convinced that is the same Harry - I just checked and Harry son of Ada is age 3 on the census. Harry Nelson Reed, being born in Dec qtr. 1909 was only around 16-19 months old, so should appear as age 1 in Apr 1911 (assuming his parents got it right). :-\
Saying that, I can't see any other birth regs for Ada's son.
I'm sure there must have been other children born to Harry and Elizabeth between 1901 and 1911. Did any of their children serve in WWI? sometimes the records contain very helpful information about parents and siblings.
I don't know what else to suggest, until you know if Harry and Elizabeth's marriage certificate contains any clues.
Alexander
-
Hi Alexander,
I agree that there must have been more children born 1901 - 1911. I've looked and there are a lot of Reeds born in Fulham (plus they could have been Chelsea).
Tried a couple in WW1 but perhaps I'll broaden that search a bit.
I'm hoping the marriage cert will help because I'm stumped otherwise!
All the best,
Clare
-
Just for info in case you don't have it:
death for Albert E Reed 1911 Fulham- same quarter as birth
-
I'm not sure that is the same child, though it does look like it. It would be really strange, because Albert E's birth was not registered until Dec 1965 (very late registration as Clare said).
I see a death reg in 1990 for an Albert Ernest Reed, died in Fulham, birth date 3 Sep 1911
???
Alexander
-
I think that the Harry born Bury St Edmunds is your Harry.
1881 - he is with father William - age given as 15 yrs rather than abt 13 yrs. He is a joiner's assistant (dad is a carpenter). This occupation ties in with that of Carpenter in 1901 for Harry but not quite a journeyman bricklayer as Alice's death. :-\
The family can be traced back quite easily.
1891 though -can't see them
-
I'm not sure that is the same child, though it does look like it. It would be really strange, because Albert E's birth was not registered until Dec 1965 (very late registration as Clare said).
I see a death reg in 1990 for an Albert Ernest Reed, died in Fulham, birth date 3 Sep 1911
???
Alexander
That sounds like him then.
-
Yes, that's the Harry I had. Got the wrong Elizabeth Jameson / Jamieson initially though as I had one born in London but it seems it's more likely the Elizabeth Sophia born in Birmingham.
Also had the Albert died in 1990.
I'm baffled by the missing 1911 entry for at least three people I know were living; Elizabeth, Harry and Elizabeth b. 1899. Think I have the right Alice working as a servant but that's not as important. I just want another census for Harry and Elizabeth to double-check birthplace.
-
There is a Harold W .N .Reed on the 1871 census at Revelstoke (Ancestry says Gloucestershire actually Devon).2105 46 18.There is also a Newmarket in Gloucestershire apparently.
He's with grandparents Henry Kingscombe 65 retired merchant from R. and Ann 62 from Portsmouth.On the 1851 census they have 2 daughters Marion 11 ,Henrietta 8 and son Aaron 3.(1877 54 18.)On the 1881 another grandson Edward Henry Reed from southsea.Ho GRO for this Haorld and I can't find a marriage Kingscome to Reed.
Possible 1891 W.Cowes Isle of Wight 885 97 19
Harry N Reed 29 painter L? W.Cowes
Elizabeth 28 Sutton Cowbry Berks.
William H 3 Cowes
Lizzie E. 1 Cowes
George E 4/12 Cowes
Ciderdrinker
-
Hello Everyone!
In case anyone is interested I got the marriage certificate through this morning and I have:
04.01.1916 Chelsea Register Office
Harry Reed @ 47 Bachelor Private A.S.C. Horsekeeper 42 Uverdale Road f. William
Elizabeth Jamieson @ 45 Spinster General Servant 1 Lots Road, Chelsea f. James
Witnesses Hetty Phillips & Arthur Phillips.
So, I had the right Harry and on the second go I had the right Elizabeth (born in Birmingham and christened in Liverpool).
I've now found Harry's Army Pension records which gives more children:
Ethel b. 31.07.01 (Fulham)
May Rosina b. 22.05.05 (Fulham)
Then it's got Ivy b. 20.07.03 and Albert who we already knew about b. 05.12.11 but says "War Office Cert" under their place of birth.
We already know Albert wasn't registered at the time so I wondered whether this was significant.
Can't find ANY of them in 1911. I think I have to accept they're not in the census for some reason and move on.
Interestingly records don't list older children but I'm asssume that it was because they were considered to be adults.
All the best,
Clare
-
Hi Clare,
Good news that it is the right certificate.
Then it's got Ivy b. 20.07.03 and Albert who we already knew about b. 05.12.11 but says "War Office Cert" under their place of birth.
We already know Albert wasn't registered at the time so I wondered whether this was significant.
I was wrong about Albert - Heywood seems to be right that he died in 1911 not 1990, since the birth date does not match on the death index.
I think maybe the whole family was abroad in 1911 if Harry was already in service before the war. That would explain why Albert has no birth cert in England, but may appear in the army birth lists? That late registered birth for Albert may be the one born 3 Sep 1911 and not your Albert.
Alexander
-
Thanks Alexander, I thought exactly the same! Unfortunately there's nothing in the Army births.
It's a mystery!
Unfortunately Elizabeth Jamieson's ancestry looks like it's just as odd so this should be fun!
All the best,
Clare
-
Yes I can't find an army birth for him either. If the army pension records say his birthdate comes from a "war office cert" mustn't there be a certificate somewhere? Or is that comment to indicate there is not a birth cert? I don't know...
Out of interest I was looking for Harry's army pension records, but can't seem to find him. What name is he indexed under?
Alexander
-
It's the fourth down - Harry Reed b. 1872 living Fulham.
Thinking about Albert - it's probably more likely that Harry got his date of birth wrong - he must have been born in the Sept quarter because it's got his mother's name on the index.
Still means he was registered late though - same with Ivy b. 1903. I can't find her but can find Ethel 1901 and May 1905.
Seems to be no reason why the couple didn't marry for 20 years either.
Clare
-
Ok, I've got it now.
Ignore what I said about Albert, I forgot that his mother's name appeared in the index. After seeing the pension record it seems unlikely they were abroad. Interesting how the record notes that the children are illegitimate - they weren't able to cover that up. Presumably they were asked to produce marriage and birth certs, but couldn't.
Harry didn't actually serve very long, did he - he only went to France from April to November 1915, but did not return, being "physically unfit for war."
Alexander
-
Hello Clare,
My Nan and I are just starting to do her family tree and joined to message you...
She spent quite a bit of time at Stephendale Road as a child, should have quite a bit of info to share...
Nan tells me that Alice lived upstairs with her family and Albert Morrill, whilst my Nans Nan Elizabeth and Harry Reed lived downstairs.
My Nan is Sylvia June Crosby nee Alexander, Daughter of Ivy Alexandra Reed, Daughter of Harry & Elizabeth.
I'm John Phillips, Sylvia's Grandson, Son of Leslie & Jacqueline Phillips nee Crosby.
Would be great to share any info, knowledge we have, hope to hear from you,
John & Sylvia
-
Hi John & Sylvia!
Wow, how exciting to hear from you! I have finally today had a breakthrough with the Reed / Jamieson family and I have a copy of Harry and Elizabeth's marriage certificate now.
I will message you my e-mail address.
All the best,
Clare
-
Hi Clare + Alice/Albert's Grandaughter + Everyone on the Site - All advice / help greatly appreciated...
I've not been told anything about the Nelson name but will ask Nan...
Re: Harry & Elizabeth married late... Nan told me she believes Edith was not Elizabeth Jamieson's daughter but from previous relationship, thinks Harry Reed could have been married previously and could be why married late...
Would like to be able to confirm this but without Wife's name how to check?, is there any way to search divorce???
Would love info you have from any Certificates on Harry Reed / Elizabeth Jamieson, Ancestors and Descendants, as of yet we don't have many to go on and have just gone from - my Nan's memory...
SUPER IMPORTANT
What is known from Alice and Albert's grand-daughter as that type of knowledge is golden.
Can you confirm that Alice died in childbirth? Nan says with Teddy poss Edward, Nan said Teddy was about 5 years older, so this must have been 1925ish???
Will see Nan tomorrow so can ask/show her more...
Thanks
John & Sylvia(*)
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php