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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Ayrshire => Topic started by: wattnb on Sunday 12 February 12 08:21 GMT (UK)
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Hi there,
The following is from the Fenwick Burial Register for 1835 and It sounds like murder to me. Does anyone know where I can start looking to find out more about the case? :o
**** McConnel - Margaret McConnel wife of Hugh Lundie an Irishman in Fenwicktown was found dead on the third of August 1835 in that part of Fenwick Water called Alexander's Weel with a rope tied firm round her neck and a cart bush fastened to it. The body was inspected by the two Surgeons of this place and buried on the sixth said month.
Thank you
Norma :)
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I had a look in the Glasgow Herald and Scotsman newspapers around that date and there seems to be no reference to it. As it's before statutory registration, I doubt you'll find much more in official records.
It's also possible that it could be a suicide, but in that case it's strange that there isn't anything in the newspapers. Maybe the Ayr Advertiser for the time might have had something? You could try contacting the Ayrshire Archives (link here) http://www.ayrshirearchives.org.uk/contact.asp
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Thanks janglaschu,
I will try the Ayrshire archives
Norma
;)
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As a matter of interest, I have this Hugh Lundie from Fenwick in my tree. He was born in Loughgilly, Northern Ireland. His first wife Elizabeth Johnston died in 1828 and I have his second wife Margaret (married 1830 Fenwick) as having died 1835! (but no details) What a great piece of information! Thanks Norma. Perhaps if you find out more you could let me know!
Boab3
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Hi Boab3.
I have Hugh´s death cert if you need it. Is he a direct ancestor? My link is with his brother Robert. There appear to have been several brothers and sisters came over from Ireland about 1805. I have confirmed their parents names from some of the death certs. I am still trying to trace them in Ireland, though. I have confirmation that one of them was born in Inch (Co Down I am assuming).
I have emailed the Ayrshire Archives re Margaret and will post here if I come up with anything. I have two marriages for Hugh and Margaret, one in Fenwick and one in Kilmarnock. Both have different surnames for Margaret - similar to but not McConnell.
Norma
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Hi Norma
My link is through Janet Lundie who married John Porter. They would be my 4xg grandparents. I also have Margaret as 'Clanachan' but I don't know if that is accurate.
Boab3
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Hi Boab,
I am back on the case with the Lundies. I am trying to get copies of the Fenwick Kirk Sessions to find out more about Margaret Lundie whondrowned at Fenwick.
Janet Porter nee Lundie is the sister of my ancestor Robert Lundie (4xGGF). Janets parents were John Lundie and Agnes Greer (I have the death cert).
The reason I am messaging is that yesterday I came across a copy of the burial register for Sorn Church. The details for plot 223 are:
Er John Porter, Crofthead 20.2.1870 75
IMO Mo. Jan Anderson 9.3.1847 84
3 chn d. In inf.
W. Jan. 27.2.1862 73 (Janet Lundie)
Margt. Porter 4.8.1885 (hus. Francis Hodge)
Suggests John Porter's mother was Janet Anderson. There is a birth in Kirkmichael on 9.10.1792 to John Porter and Janet Anderson. The christening was on 21.10.1792. I couldn't find any other births for John and Janet.
I didn't know if you had this information already so thought I would pass it on.
I have just ordered some copies of a trial against Janet's brother, Thomas in 1824, from the Scottish Records Office.
Best wishes
Norma
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Thankyou Norma. I hadn't looked at this branch for a long time. I do have the information on the Porters and have Janet Anderson as Hugh's mother. A very interesting branch the Lundies lol. It would be interesting to hear about Thomas's trial.
Best wishes
Boab
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Trying to send you a file but it won´t load. If you let me have your email address I will send some of the trial papers I have transcribed for Thomas Lundie, Janet Porter´s sister.
Best wishes
Norma
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Hi Norma
I'd love to see transcription but I don't think I'm allowed to post my email address. Perhaps someone would give us some advice?
Boab3
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Hi ,
You can use the Personal Message(PM) system to send private information.
Attachments are not allowed on PMs
See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
ev
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Thankyou Ev
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Have sent email address Norma.
Boab3
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Here´s a follow-up to this:
Ayr Advertiser 13th August 1835
MYSTERIOUS DEATH – About 3 o’clock of the morning of Monday 3d inst., Mrs. Lundy, wife of Hugh Lundy, farmer Fenwick, was missed from bed by her husband, who communicated the circumstances to his neighbours and commenced a search for her himself. On failing to find her in the neighbourhood of her own dwelling, the search was abandoned, under the impression that, as she had for some days been purposing a visit to her mother’s house, she might have gone thither. As the morning advanced, however, a labourer, who was proceeding to his work, discovered a corpse in the water of Fenwick, a short distance from Lundy’s house, which, with assistance, he drew out of the pool, and found to be that of the unfortunate woman. The body was sunk by the bush of a cart-wheel tied to the neck by a rope. A precognition has been taken by the civil authorities of the circumstances connected with this melancholy occurrence, which is to be forwarded to Crown Counsel.
The details were sent to Edinburgh to see if a case should be brought. So obviously they thought it was suspicious and not suicide. Hugh was in Glasgow by the following year so maybe he ran off. He was married again that year to Caroline Ballantyne.
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I know from reading RCE (Register of Corrected Entries) that a death could be ruled by the Procurator Fiscal as accident or suicide. There are several suicides in my extended Scottish family tree and an RCE accompanies the Death Certificate. There are also a couple of accidental deaths where bruising seems to have been the flag that led to a review of the death. I don't know what kind of documentation would exist for the pre-1855 deaths that triggered a legal review. Have you tried searching in the Scottish Records Office online?
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Fascinating info - thanks! Hugh Lundie is a direct ancestor (and 3rd wife Caroline Ballantyne), but had no idea about his 2nd wife. I have all the other people who were mentioned in the threads, and some clues about Hugh's life (farmer or farm labourer). Brother John a cotton weaver, brother-in-law Porter a farmer W/100 acres, nephew Robert a coal miner. Parents John Lundie from Loughgilly and Agnes Grier, daughter of Robert Grier but can't get back further than that. I do not have any death certs. I would love to have additional info. I realise this is quite a grand request, but as this is my first time on Roots, I'm not really sure if it is even polite to ask. Any comments most appreciated!
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Hi Antigo,
I have pm´d you.
Norma
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Many thanks!! But I received a message that says I'm not allowed to receive personal messages in the PM section! When I checked the rules though it says new members can't receive until they've made 3 postings and the one above was my very first. Hey ho, another one or two to go and I should be there.
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Are you descended from Caroline and James Allan Thomson?
Norma
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Yes, Caroline Lundie and James Allan Thomson. Then from John Lundie Thomson and Ellen Allen Boxell.
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Hi,
You should have enough posts soon for a pm lol!
The Lundies came to Scotland about 1805. I have documentary proof of that in the form of a trial declaration by one of the brothers, Thomas.
So there were five brothers and at least one sister, Janet who married John Porter.
The brothers were Thomas, Hugh, Robert, John and James. According to the same trial declaration they came from Armagh.
Thomas was tried for rape and incest in 1824. After that, he and his children disappear apart from his son, Thomas who was sent to Tasmania for 7 years for robbery.
Hugh you know about - 3 wives and only two children I know of. His son John became a wealthy pawnbroker in Glasgow and left a decent will. Caroline died quite young.
Robert died around 1838 according to his wife´s Poor Relief statement. They had three children, one became a funeral undertaker.
James was a silk weaver and lived in Ardrossan. He married twice and had 2 children.
John, a cotton weaver lived in Galston for the rest of his life with Janet Taylor. They had several children.
I have death certs for Hugh, Janet, James and John as they died after registration was brought in in 1854. I have quite a bit on Hugh, Both Carolines and Caroline´s brother John.
Norma
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Lots of new info here thanks to you! And yes, made it onto PM and have written you.
If all the Lundie children went to Scotland in 1805, the youngest would have been about 2 which implies that the parents took them there - I have father John Lundie, mother Agnes Grier but no death dates/locations for either.
As Lundie and Grier seem to be Scottish names, I wonder if they were poor lowland Scots who had earlier migrated to Ulster in the Plantation drive, or followed later. One website says Greers were some of the earliest Plantation arrivals. Lundies, however, not mentioned. But I'm only starting to study this event.
Robert was married to whom? I have both Annie Wallace and Margaret Wallace and no proof for either. Also have just 2 children Robert 1823-1882 and Elizabeth 1825 (her mother was Margaret).
I did not have brother James on my tree, so have added him.
Hugh's wife Caroline - date of death I have is 15 Dec 1874 in Glasgow aged 79 and I also have access to a death certificate for her. (I better give some attention to Elizabeth Johnstone to see how she might have died!)
Thomas - the trial can as a big but unpleasant surprise! found only one tiny reference online to it. Was he convicted? That could cause the family to split up and/or move out of town.
Janet
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Hi,
I´ve not received any pms from you yet - maybe they need to be vetted ir something?
Anyway, yes I had the same thought about the family arriving with their parents but have not found any trace of them. Janet would have been 15, though and probably able to look after her younger siblings. Thomas had his first child in Galston in 1809. As you know, the records are not great before 1841. Maybe we could try the Galston Kirk Sessions. There may be some mention if the Sessions are available for early 1800.
I am also convinced about the move from Scotland during the plantation. Lundie is a popular name in Fife and Aberdeen around that time. Also they were Protestant. The christian names tally too.
Robert married Margaret Wallace in 1822 and had 3 children with her - John, Elizabeth and Isabella. However, my connection is through an illegitimate child called Robert Lundie he had with Annie Wallace (no relation) in 1823(the same year John was born to Margaret!). I can send you copies of certs etc. By 1841, Margaret was living in Kilmarnock with Isabella - Robert had died by then.
I have info for Caroline Ballantyne, including her death cert.
Thomas was acquitted. I have copies of the trial papers which I have transcribed. Will be happy to let you have a copy of this too. It does not give the actual trial event, just all the pre-trial statements.
*****Johnstone - Elisabeth Johnstone wife of Hugh Lundie Labourer died in Kirkton on the 3d & was buried 6th May 1828 This from the Fenwick Kirk Sessions.
I have an interesting problem with the Irish origin. James Lundie applied for Poor Relief. The Ayrshire Archive told me he was listed in their Records and place of birth was given as Inch. There are several places called Inch but the likeliest is in County Down. This conflicts with the Armagh given by Thomas in his statement. A friend is going to the Archive at Auchincruive to look at the actual records to see if there is any more info. There were Lundys also in County Down around Killyleagh about that time.
I am documenting all this here so it might help future readers.
Norma
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Greetings!
Do you have any information about the antecedents of Hugh Lundie and his siblings? I have John Lundie b ca 1760 Loughgilly married to Agnes Grier b ca 1760 Loughgilly. Agnes was the dtr of Robert Grier b ca 1730. This is from various Ancestry trees, but there's no documentation for any of it. I've not been able to find any docs or even any clues elsewhere online.
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Lunday Hugh Loughgilly Armagh
Lunday James Loughgilly Armagh
Lunday John Loughgilly Armagh
Lunday Robert Loughgilly Armagh
The above is from the 1796 Flax Growers list.
Google “Flax Growers list Armagh”
I also have information from a headstone in Loughgilly C of I graveyard that reads:
“This stone was erected by Robert Londy in memory of his father Hugh Londy who died May ye 3rd 1739 aged 41 years Also his wife Ann Londy died November 1760 aged 61 years Alos their daughter Sarah and said Robert Londy who died May ye 24 1774 aged 64 years Also Robert Lundy and John Lundy”
I put the Loughgilly reference based on the headstone on GenesReunited over 10 years ago and I have seen it reproduced elsewhere so don´t take it as gospel.
I don´t know about Agnes being the daughter of Robt Greer: I have never made that link.
Cheers
The names are really consistent with our Lundies.
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Again, many thanks for fascinating info. The grave inscription has not seemed to turn up on Ancestry.
Do I take it then from the inscription that 1739 death of Hugh is the earliest known date for Lundies in Loughgilly (or for that matter elsewhere in Ulster)? Naturally, this is likely to have been at least a bit earlier as I doubt Hugh died as soon as he arrived, but in terms of concrete date, is this the earliest?
Funnily enough, one Ancestry tree said that John Lundie ca 1760 - ? was a linen weaver but gave no source.
On Find My Past apparently there are two wills for a John Lundy in county Down, one 1820 and the other 1836. I'm not a member so couldn't access more info than this.
I'll keep scouting around online...
Greers - the 1796 flax list had a number of Greers. Will study them a bit more but it doesn't seem there is any way to tie people together. Still, its useful and interesting.
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I copied this from the internet a while ago:
The Reasons for the Scottish Migration to Ireland
During the 17th century, between 1605 and 1690, large numbers of Scottish lowlanders emigrated to Ulster in Northern Ireland. King James I of England sought to pacify the Irish by "planting" protestant English and Scottish settlers in Ireland beginning in the early part of the 17th century (see Ulster Plantation). The most successful efforts were carried out with settlers from the Scottish lowlands, who had both economic and religious reasons for emigrating to Ulster in large numbers. The economic reasons were dominant for the first 50 years and religion was the dominant reason for the next 30 years.
As described above, life was difficult enough in Scotland, but beginning with the introduction of the feu in the mid 16th century there were additional economic hardships. The feu is a feudal arrangement for leasing land. Unlike the traditional feudal arrangement in which the tenant gets the right to farm the land in return for service (both labor and military) and a share of the crop to the laird or landowner, the feu was a simple lease for money in which the tenant paid a fixed amount of rent. There was no obligation of service and the lease would last as long as the tenant continued to pay the rent. This was good for the landowner, because if provided a steady income, and the rents were usually higher. However, the result was that generally the lands were leased to the wealthier lairds who could afford the higher leases and the traditional tenants lost the lands that they had been farming for generations. These dispossessed tenants became either subtenants or laborers with a resultant loss of income and status. The Ulster Plantation, beginning in 1606, was an attractive opportunity for these dispossessed farmers. Ulster offered:
• Better land, more fertile and productive than any available in Scotland.
• Safety. The planters were to be protected by the English army-an attractive alternative to the decades of war with the English.
• The promise of peace and law
It was also close. Ireland is only about 15 miles away at its closest point, making the journey easy. (Note the plantation of Ireland occurred contemporaneously with the Jamestown settle in Virginia. Clearly, the journey from Scotland to Ireland was much easier than the trip across the Atlantic to Virginia.)
However a famine in Scotland, caused by crop failure in 1696-98, had a major impact in Ireland, causing Scottish Presbyterians to become an absolute majority in Ulster– where about 50,000 settled to escape hunger in their own country, joining the existing 100,000 strong Scottish community there.[26]”
This last bit is interesting!
I don´t think I have anything earlier than the headstone info and we don´t even know for sure that this is the right family. Its a while since I looked at this time period so I will go back through everything I have and double-check.
Did you see the piece I wrote in an earlier reply about Inch? It is near Killyleagh and there is also a Lundy presence there around 1800 with similar christian names. I´m fairly convinced that we should be looking in one of these two areas - Loughgilly or Killyleagh.
N
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Thanks for the interesting history. Both the Plantation and the famine could be motivators for our Lundies as well, I guess, of family ties at other times. I have been looking for reasons why they might have moved back to Scotland in 1805, but texts so far have only discussed further migration from Ulster to the new world. But I might come up with something yet.
Re Inch, I did see it but was giving it further thought. I think you are right that it is a strong possibility which should not be overlooked.
Concerning James, nothing on Ancestry had popped up about him so I did not have him in my tree until you mentioned him. Is it possible that he is not a sibling, but the son of another Lundie family? Fingers crossed your friend might find out more. I don't really have proof of birth for any of the siblings.
For Hugh Lundie I have born 1779, married 26 Jul 1814 Elizabeth Johnston in Galston, married 1830 Margaret McConnel in Fenwick, married 19 Nov 1835 Caroline Ballantyne in Gorbals, died 26 July 1857 • Houston and Killellan, Renfrewshire (this from Ancestry trees only, no source)
Elizabeth's death record said he was a labourer, 1815 birth cert for son John says labourer. 1859 marriage cert dtr Caroline said her father Hugh Lundie was a farmer. Son John's 1869 death cert says farm servant. Caroline's death cert says 'contractor'.
I've seen a lot of wedding certificates where the father's profession was made somewhat grander than reality, so I guess something like that was happening here.
(Also I've seen a lot of mindless copying on Ancestry and while I've been sometimes guilty myself, I do try to evaluate things.)
I don't want to exhaust you! So maybe we can start with Hugh and do Caroline next time?
Best regards.
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Hi Antigo,
I have the 1814 marriage record for Hugh and the following:
1815 birth record for John
1830 marriage records (2different towns)
1835 death record for Margaret
1851 census record (likely)
1857 death certificate
If you want any if these I will send
The 1835 newspaper report of Margaret´s death records him as a farmer.
The 1851 census says ‘retired farmer’. Interestingly he is called Mathew in this. I will send it.
I don´t have any proof of birth for any of them , only calculations from other documents.
:D
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Just started researching Lundie/Porter families.
Janet Lundie is my 3x great grandmother. The information about the Fenwick suicide/murder and all the information about the family coming over from Ireland is very useful. I just wonder if there
is any new information available. Thank you.
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I assume you mean Janet Lundie, sister of Hugh Lundie who was the husband of the woman who died in Fenwick. Concerning that death, the Ayr Advertiser in August 1835 reported that a "precognition has been taken by the civil authorities... which is to be forwarded to Crown Counsel. A subsequent entry in a legal record reported "no proceedings" against Hugh by which I assume that accidental death was thought to be the cause and no case was made against Hugh.
Through RootsChat I came into contact with someone who shared with me the wealth of information she had found on the Lundies which I have incorporated into Ancestry.com tree. Are you researching on Ancestry?
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Yes, that's right. Janet and John Porter.
Yes, I do have an Ancestry subscription. I haven't checked out Lundie/Porters/Henderson's etc., yet.
If you're willing to share your information I'd be very grateful.
Thank you for replying so promptly, I've not used roots chat before but it certainly seems to get results.
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Hugh Lundie is the direct ancestory of the family I am researching.
I'd be very pleased to share the information I have. I've done a lot of my own research from afar but am grateful to those who shared with me and, of course, there is no point in reinventing wheels as there will always be plenty of other points to spend time researching.
My tree is private at the moment, only because it is still a work in progress and I don't want to unleash any errors on an unsuspecting world (I've seen a lot of silly copying of silly assumptions on Ancestry).
If you are willing to give me your Ancestry username, I can use it to send you an invitation through Ancestry.
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Hi Monty Dog,
I am also related to Janet Lundie, through her brother Robert, my direct ancestor.
Almost all the available info on the Lundies is on Ancestry. It is proving difficult to find anything prior to their arrival in Scotland although we can verify they came from Armagh and they were weavers so the 1796 Linen lists help to narrow down their place of origin.
Get in touch if you think I can help at all.
Good Luck!
Norma
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Hi Antigo and wattnb,
How exciting two new 'cousins' in one week.
My user name on Ancestry is McSand65.
Husband's out today walking on a windy mountain somewhere in Spain so I'm going to read and note all the info you have on here.
Many thanks for sharing.
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Hi Monty Dog. Have sent Ancestry invite to you. Let me know if it works and if it is fulfilling. 'Cousin' to us, wattnb, was a true guiding ligt, full of and willing to share research gains and information, a real pro at discovering documents and information. I was lucky to find her and trust you will be too.
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Hello - I am also directly descended from James Allan Thomson born 1832 and Caroline Lundie born 1839 died of Typhus 1867. My great grandfather on my mother’s side was John Lundie Thomson their son, born 1860.
Caroline’s mother, my great, great, great grandmother, Caroline Ballantyne, born 1795 Drymen, Stirlingshire, died 1874, as you know was John Lundie’s 3rd wife.
John Lundie Thomson my great grandfather married twice.
He was born in Calton, Glasgow, Scotland and worked for London Midland Scotland Railways eventually moving to Whitstable w his 2nd wife, Edith Nora Reeves (Mops) who was from Whitstable. They had one son Bruce 1910-1967.
His first wife Ellen Boxell had 3 children, Colin, Elsie and my grandmother - Doris Lilian 1886-1948 who married my grandfather William Frank Rees 1885 - 1968.
I can find info on his second wife Edith Nora Reeves and their son Bruce but little about Ellen, my direct ancestor or her siblings or parents - so any links or suggestions would be splendid.
Reading your conversations about our ancestors has been really amazing.
Regards Jenni