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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: LeanneBeckley on Sunday 12 February 12 05:16 GMT (UK)
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Hi everyone,
How do you go about getting a death certificate for an assumed drowning victim? I was unable to find a death certificiate for my GG grandfather. His name was John Wells and he was a fisherman from Queenscliff in Victoria. I put the name John Wells, Queenscliff into Trove and a lot of articles about the overturning of a pilot schooner named Rip came up. Four men lost their lives in the accident. One of whom was a John Wells, fisherman from Queenscliff who had joined the pilot boat that day as a fill in steward.
The article said that John Wells left a widow and 7 children, and this would fit in with what I know about my John Wells. Also, a couple of years later, his wife, my GG grandmother Sarah Wells remarried and her marriage certificate stated that she was a widow.
So my question is - Would there have been an inquest into the disaster, and if so, what happens to the death certificate.
Thanks, Leanne.
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Hi Leanne,
do you know the year of the drowning?
There are quite a few John WELLS to check out. :)
Dee :)
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Hi ,
Sorry I should have added the date, it was July 15, 1873. Also, his son also died by drowning. He was also John Wells and died in a fishing accident in December, 1879. I don't have a deat certificate for either of them.
Leanne
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How tragic!
According to the index, there doesn't appear to have been an Inquest into either death. :-\
I checked the Deaths too, just in case, and there doesn't seem to be a likely registration for either death. :-\
I can't answer as to whether drowning deaths would have been registered. Perhaps it depended upon whether the body was found. ???
Dee :)
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Thanks Dee,
Do you think it was common to not issue a death certificate for this kind of death. There were many witnesses to his death. Apparantly, witnesses said when the boat overturned, John Wells had his leg torn open from the hip to the ankle and they said he died quickly after probably from loss of blood. So there was a lot eye witnesses to the event and the fact that his wife remarried a couple of years later as a widow, means that legally, there was no question as to his death. Still it doesn't help me as I would like a death certificate for my records.
Thanks again,
Leanne
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It sounds strange that there wasn't, doesn't it? :-\
I'v e just done a search using W*ls, and there is only one result for 1873, and that is a John WILLS, father John Alexander. He was aged 47 and born in Devon.
I don't suppose this is your man with his name misspelt?
As for 1879, there are no possible results.
Dee :)
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Hi Leanne,
I'm not sure about this but I wonder if it could be because
the mens bodies were not found.
I had a look for death registrations for the other men and no listing
for them either. Very strange :-\
Raylen
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Leanne, maybe you need to investigate PROV (Public Record Office of Victoria.)
http://prov.vic.gov.au/
They have other Coronial Enquiry records for when there wasn't an Inquest. Possibly with so many witnesses, they didn't hold an inquest. ???
Dee :)
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Thanks Raylen and Dee,
My John Wells was born in Jersey UK and his parents were Joseph Wells and Frances Brown. I will check out Prov, and you are right, none of the four men are listed in the death records. I might just have to accept that there is no death certificate. I just thought that, for legal reasons there would have to be some kind of record of someone's demise even if the bodies weren't recovered.
Leanne
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Leanne, this would be a great question to put to one of the top Australian genealogists, such as the chap who goes on the ABC at night sometimes (from Anc****y) or Nick Vine Hall.
Maybe there is a reason for it that they would be able to explain.
But then again, it could just be that something has happened to the records, I suppose. :-\
Dee :)
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Thanks Dee
I'll try that, and thanks for your interest.
Leanne
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This might help.
http://www.theshipslist.com/Forms/BMD.htm
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Hey Leanne,
I have an ancestor who also died in a drowning, and like you I suspect this as I have found articles on Trove that lead me to this end. Also like you, his wife re-married and stated herself as a widow, but I there is no record of his death as there was never a body found.
It is a very frustrating thing when you are 99% sure that the ancestor you are interested in is the one that drowned, but there isn't the legal certification to prove it. If possible, can you let me know if you find anything at PROV? My ancestor died in NSW, but any leads on if you can find certificates for drowning deaths would be great.
Thanks,
Ash
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Hi
NVH died in 2006
19thc NSW dc in civil registrations were for giving the funeral director authority to bury a body. I think without a body there would not have been a need for a dc in that era in VIC
Cheers JM
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I'd agree with JM, especially about Nick Vine Hall being only contactable in the afterlife :P
But you'd think there would have been an inquest, even without a body??
Any sudden and unexpected death, or death from circumstances not connected with an individual's state of health, usually attracts a coroner's inquest of some sort.
You may have to content yourself with the newspaper reports.
Dawn M
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I'd wondered why the ABC had switched to the Anc*****y chap! :-[ ;D
Dee :)
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Dee
Nick's death was quite sudden, as I recall, and I think there was something about his wife not wanting a song and dance about it (but that may be just my memory playing tricks, too)
Dawn M
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Thanks Dawn. :)
Many is the night I got cross when I fell alseep during his sessions, only to wake up to hear him say goodnight! ::)
Dee :)
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I agree Dawn as that is how I recall his passing.
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I wrote to the Registrar,Births Deaths and Marriages NSW to enquire whether a death certificate could be issued for my great grandfather, who died in a NSW shipwreck which was the subject of a Marine Board of Enquiry in 1882, and was told that as no certificate was requested by a funeral director at the time of the death (of course, there was no body as ggfather went down with the ship) then none could now be issued. So, no burial, no certificate. Fran
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If there is no body, no death certificate will be issued.
You can apply to the court to have them declared dead.
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Thanks everyone,
I still think it is strange that just because the body isn't recovered, there is no registration of death. It seems like a loophole to me. I suppose I will just have to be grateful that I was able to sort out what happened to him through the Trove website.
Thanks again to everone who took the time to join in.
Leanne.
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Thanks everyone,
I still think it is strange that just because the body isn't recovered, there is no registration of death. It seems like a loophole to me.
Here is an example:
Our missing, presumed drowned on 17 Dec 1967, Prime Minister - Harold Edward HOLT doesn't have a death certificate.
No official federal government inquiry was conducted, on the grounds that it would have been a waste of time and money. Neither was an inquest held at the time because Victorian law did not provide any mechanism for reporting presumed or suspected deaths to the Victorian Coroner.
The family had to apply to the courts for an order to declare him dead commonly known as death in absentia (or presumption of death) which is a legal declaration that a person is deceased in the absence of remains (e.g., a corpse or skeleton) attributable to that person. Such a declaration is typically made when a person has been missing for an extended period of time without any evidence that the person is still alive, or when the circumstances surrounding a person's disappearance overwhelmingly support the belief that the person has died
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Merlin,
Do you think that if a man died in 1868 that the same declaration could be made by the family, and if so, where would I go to try and find such a document?
Ash
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Xactly ... On other hand QLD BDM issued dcs for their QLD AIF residents who fell during WWI and those dcs have F as part of the index ref no.
So different regs in each state. Aust is a Federation
Cheers JM
Thanks everyone,
I still think it is strange that just because the body isn't recovered, there is no registration of death. It seems like a loophole to me. I suppose I will just have to be grateful that I was able to sort out what happened to him through the Trove website.
Thanks again to everone who took the time to join in.
Leanne.
Here is an example:
Our missing, presumed drowned on 17 Dec 1967, Prime Minister - Harold Edward HOLT doesn't have a death certificate.
No official federal government inquiry was conducted, on the grounds that it would have been a waste of time and money. Neither was an inquest held at the time because Victorian law did not provide any mechanism for reporting presumed or suspected deaths to the Victorian Coroner.
The family had to apply to the courts for an order to declare him dead commonly known as death in absentia (or presumption of death) which is a legal declaration that a person is deceased in the absence of remains (e.g., a corpse or skeleton) attributable to that person. Such a declaration is typically made when a person has been missing for an extended period of time without any evidence that the person is still alive, or when the circumstances surrounding a person's disappearance overwhelmingly support the belief that the person has died
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May I butt in ... If in NSW ... simply put... NO .. if a probate matter arose then a witness statement to NSW Supreme Court would surfice .. eg 'I saw the heavy seas washing across our bows for hours.' Or 'We have not heard from him since 1868'
Cheers JM
Merlin,
Do you think that if a man died in 1868 that the same declaration could be made by the family, and if so, where would I go to try and find such a document?
Ash
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Ash
NSW Supreme Ct PROBATE packets are at NSW SRO Kingswood for that era ... I hope to be there later this month or early March if you are in the city there may be access at The Rocks office.
JM
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Slightly off topic, but the Rocks office is to be closed in June this year.
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Hello,
I have also checked the Marine Deaths- just on the off chance. It is not listed there either :P
Regards
Alison
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Hi
Looking at the newspapers it would appear that the Pilot Board held an inquiry about the tragedy within days, the Public Record Office of Victoria (PROV) might have records. Their findings would possibly be sufficient to allow his widow to remarry and I suspect there would be no actual death certificate without a body.
Andy
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In NSW, Death Certificates came into being 1856. Before then they were Church Records. Therefore,
pre-1856 it was actually the church record of the funeral which was document of death, and if no body, no funeral, and no record. Hence the case of my ancestor who drowned with 2 others in Sydney Harbour 1822. Detailed newspaper accounts but no bodies recovered at all and no funerals, hence all three have no official record of their death.
When was the change over from Church Records to official Registration Records in Queensland (if any), pre or post 1873?
Les
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Qld BDM online says their records all go from 1829.
Queensland was part of NSW until 1859, so the changeover from church to civil records was presumably 1856, same as NSW.
Dawn M
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You'll need a seance to ask Nick Vine Hall, regrettably.
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You'll need a seance to ask Nick Vine Hall, regrettably.
eregli_gene,
As you were apparently posting from within Aust, ie posting in the rather early pre-dawn hours, you may have missed reading this post and several after it re NVH's passing.
Cheers, JM
NVH died in 2006
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You are correct. I read the first page of the thread. The post I was responding to here, was the last post on the first page of the thread and I didn't not notice at the time that there were other pages.
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There is an example, here
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/28384898?searchTerm=hercules%20dalzell&searchLimits=
of an individual who drowned off the shore of New South Wales.
This Hercules Dalzell apparently has a death certificate, its in the NSW BDM online index
Hercules Dalzell, age 33 years, "Died off Long Reef" 4333/1881
According to the newspaper, they retrieved the body, so that might be the difference.
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thanks for the reply, I'm still looking for an answer. There were four men who perished and there doesn't appear to be a death cert. for any of them. I have tried a couple of avenues, but so far, I have not had any luck. I'll keep trying.
Thanks for your interest anyway.
Leanne.
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Leanne, good luck with your search. Do let's know if you find one, as it seems unlikely. Certificates were not used very much before the middle of the C20. You could enrol in the armed forces, get married, request probate, register BMDs, open a bank account and do almost anything without producing any ID at all. I cannot see any reference to an estate left by John WELLS, so no need for paperwork there.
Did his widow marry again? Even then a declaration on her part would be acceptable, especially if the marriage took place in the same area where people would know her.
There are many instances of there being no registrations and thus no certificates for BMDs, especially in early times and/or in country areas. While registration was required after 1853 I am not sure who was actually responsible for submitting a registration.
Judith
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Hi Judith, My gg grandfather drowned in 1873 and his widow remarried in 1877. Her marriage certificate just states that she was a widow since 1873 and that she was living at the time of her second marriage, in Sandridge, Port Melbourne.
The thing is that I am sure that the man, John Wells who drowned is my John Wells as each piece of information I find validates this so I am comfortable to accept his death date as established. However, I wanted a death certificate for all the other information I might have been able to find. Maybe with your experience, as opposed to my inadequacies, you may be able to point me in the right direction. I am stuck as to when this man came to be in Australia. There are John Wells who arrived as convicts and some who came as settlers and I don't know where to start sorting through them to find my John Wells. I do know that he was born in Jersey, England and his marriage certificate says he was a Baker. However, he made his living as a fisherman in Queenscliff during his marriage to my GG grandmother. Their marriage certificate states that he was 24 and she was 15 and they married in Melbourne. One point of interest is that she was born in 1841 in Hobart, Van Diemans Land. So, I would assume that her parents may have been convicts. They moved to Melbourne after a couple of their children were born and continued to have more kids. The marriage certificate also has both bride and groom living at the same address with her father signing his permission for the marriage. I am wondering if there is a connection with Tasmania and if John Wells may have been a convict who also came to Melbourne and already knew Sarah (that's the 15 year old's name) and her family. Do you know if there is any way to find out what became of convicts after their release from Tassie. I hope I'm not asking too much, but I'm stumped as to where to go with this particular branch of the family.
Anyway, thanks for your interest
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" One point of interest is that she was born in 1841 in Hobart, Van Diemans Land. So, I would assume that her parents may have been convicts. "
Why would you "assume" this ? Not everybody in Tasmania in 1841 was a convict.
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Hi leanne
working backwards from your dates, was John born ~1832 (married 1856 aged 24 years?)
if so, then none of the convict John Wells on the Tas Archives database fit with this DOB
Lou
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Information on marriage certificates in Vic should include the parents of the bride and groom. Taking into account that they were married in 1856 not many years after civil registration commenced [1853], could you type up ALL the information on the marriage certificate.
If we had some parents names then perhaps we can establish whether or not Sarah's parents were convicts.
Cheers
Cando
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There is an assisted immigrant John Wells aged 23 in 1854
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The John Wells on the Tantivy in 1854 was from Sunbury(?) Middlesex.
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Assisted immigrants arriving Victoria
http://210.8.122.120/indexes/index_search.asp?searchid=24
Unassisted immigrants arriving Victoria
http://210.8.122.120/indexes/index_search.asp?searchid=23
Cando
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There is a 9 year old John Wells on Guernsey in 1841
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Alternatively to that suggestion re someone using Ancestry Why not use the RChat Resources boards and the live links to the various Passenger lists found there?(
I am concerned about any suggestion that may affect the T&C of any subscription sites and/or RChat site)
Cheers JM
There is an assisted immigrant John Wells aged 23 in 1854
I suggest you ask someone with an Ancestry subscription for some details of the several John Wells who appear on the unassited and assisted passenger lists to Victoria and other Australian ports.
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The TANTIVY arrived New South Wales not Victoria.
Please read this link
http://www.rootschat.com/help/posting_guide.php#copyright
which includes.....
Do not ask for look-ups from commercial sources.
Most commercial sources have strict 'Terms of Use', which forbid publishing their data elsewhere, so asking for such look-ups is also asking people to ignore the 'Terms of Use'.
Cando
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"The TANTIVY arrived New South Wales not Victoria."
There is no impediment to travelling from Sydney to Melbourne in 2 years. It is not really any harder than travelling from Tasmania !
That is the only John Wells appearing on any of the lists that I know how to look up who was
(a) around the right age ; and
(b) arrived before 1856.
(c) was single.
It would be unwise to assume that just because a person turns up in Melbourne, that they arrived from overseas on a ship which went straight to Melbourne.
Back when research was a lot harder than it is now, it took us about 13 years to find the immigration of one of my great-great-grandfathers, because he actually arrived on a ship which went to Hervey Bay (!) and apparently hated the weather so much that he straight to Sydney.l
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eregli
Re Tantivy ...This record would be found in NSWSRO files ... I am not sure why arrivals of your eregli forebears is relevant to this RChat thread
Cheers JM
"The TANTIVY arrived New South Wales not Victoria."
There is no impediment to travelling from Sydney to Melbourne in 2 years. It is not really any harder than travelling from Tasmania !
That is the only John Wells appearing on any of the lists that I know how to look up who was
(a) around the right age ; and
(b) arrived before 1856.
(c) was single.
It would be unwise to assume that just because a person turns up in Melbourne, that they arrived from overseas on a ship which went straight to Melbourne.
Back when research was a lot harder than it is now, it took us about 13 years to find the immigration of one of my great-great-grandfathers, because he actually arrived on a ship which went to Hervey Bay (!) and apparently hated the weather so much that he straight to Sydney.l
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Information on marriage certificates in Vic should include the parents of the bride and groom. Taking into account that they were married in 1856 not many years after civil registration commenced [1853], could you type up ALL the information on the marriage certificate.
If we had some parents names then perhaps we can establish whether or not Sarah's parents were convicts.
Previous thread & details on Sarah WILLIAMS & John WELLS
Sarah b. Tasmania - parents: John Williams & Jane Johnston
John b. Jersey UK - parents: Joseph Wells and Frances Brown
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,581318.msg4329930.html#msg4329930
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,571505.msg4239544.html#msg4239544
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,571505.0.html
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Thank you Merlin.
It would appear that Joseph's first marriage was to Frances BROWN and second to Catherine UNKNOWN. This would explain the 8 years gap between John and his half brother Adolphus.
1841 Census HO107/1460/11/4/28/7
Living at Commercial Arcade St Peter's Port, Guernsey, Channel Islands
WELLS Joseph 36 Baker Born England
WELLS Catherine 32 Born England
WELLS Joseph 14 years Born Guernsey
WELLS Fanny 12 years Born England
WELLS John 9 years Born England
WELLS Adolphus 1 Born Guernsey
There are a number of entries eg baptisms, mentions in various publications etc for your family on the combined databases on
http://zades.com.au/gandd/index.php/databases/gddbs
Perhaps the Geelong newspapers of the day may have more information. They are not on TROVE.
Cheers
Cando
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Apologies Leanne....transcription error :-[
Should be......
WELLS Joseph 14 years Born Jersey
Cando
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Cando and Merlin, Thank you so much for your work and I apologise for not responding sooner. I posted last night and had to call it quits as I had a 4.00am rise.
Thank you for finding my John. His parents were Frances Brown and Joseph Wells so you have helped immensely. Also, someone asked why I assumed that John's wife Sarah Ann Williams was born to convicts in Tassie. I was only suggesting that as I already have another family member who came to Geelong after 7 years as a convict in Tasmania, so it was only a maybe. Sarah's parents, according to her first marriage cert. to John Wells were John Williams and Janet Johnston, however by Sarah's second marriage after John died, her mother was listed as Jane Johnson.
Someone else on line also researched her family back to a John Williams and Janet Johnston from Tasmania, then Victoria, then NSW and finally back to Victoria. But she told me that there were two sets of families with parents John and Janet/Jane Williams (nee Johnston) and mine started in Tasmania where they married in around 1840. John Williams apparantly was born in Dublin and his wife Janet/Jane Johnston/Johnson was from Glasgow. Their first child was Sarah Ann born in about 1841, they then had James, Jane and John in Hobart and then came over to Geelong where they had 2 Charles', Alexander, George and Thomas. I am still tracking down proof of the children born in Geelong as I don't have all of their birth years yet (ie the last two). I do know that some of the children are buried in Geelong and I am still trying to track down what happened to John Williams and Janet/Jane.
I have found a death certificate for a Janet Williams born Johnston, however, this is the ancestor of the other lady on line and not mine. (VIC BDM 932)
So I am still looking for information on the Geelong John Williams and Janet/Jane, as their death certificates will help me fill in the blanks on that side.
Thanks again for your interest in my search,'
Leanne
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I suggest you contact the link given in my post for further information on your family.
Cheers
Cando
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Thanks Cando, I will do that, and thanks again,
bye now, Leanne.
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Cando and Merlin, Thank you so much for your work and I apologise for not responding sooner. I posted last night and had to call it quits as I had a 4.00am rise.
Thank you for finding my John. His parents were Frances Brown and Joseph Wells so you have helped immensely. Also, someone asked why I assumed that John's wife Sarah Ann Williams was born to convicts in Tassie. I was only suggesting that as I already have another family member who came to Geelong after 7 years as a convict in Tasmania, so it was only a maybe. Sarah's parents, according to her first marriage cert. to John Wells were John Williams and Janet Johnston, however by Sarah's second marriage after John died, her mother was listed as Jane Johnson.
Someone else on line also researched her family back to a John Williams and Janet Johnston from Tasmania, then Victoria, then NSW and finally back to Victoria. But she told me that there were two sets of families with parents John and Janet/Jane Williams (nee Johnston) and mine started in Tasmania where they married in around 1840. John Williams apparantly was born in Dublin and his wife Janet/Jane Johnston/Johnson was from Glasgow. Their first child was Sarah Ann born in about 1841, they then had James, Jane and John in Hobart and then came over to Geelong where they had 2 Charles', Alexander, George and Thomas. I am still tracking down proof of the children born in Geelong as I don't have all of their birth years yet (ie the last two). I do know that some of the children are buried in Geelong and I am still trying to track down what happened to John Williams and Janet/Jane.
I have found a death certificate for a Janet Williams born Johnston, however, this is the ancestor of the other lady on line and not mine. (VIC BDM 932)
So I am still looking for information on the Geelong John Williams and Janet/Jane, as their death certificates will help me fill in the blanks on that side.
Thanks again for your interest in my search,'
Leanne
Hello Leanne, This is my first post and I am struggling with the system at the moment. I wanted to ask whether you were still looking for information about Sarah Jane, the child of Janet Johnston and John Williams. I believe that they are my forebears. I am not sure whether you will be able to read this link without registering with the Family Search organisation, but it has information about Sarah Jane: https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/sources/G8RP-JWB I hope that I can work out how to chat to you, should you see this post. Regards, Sharon.