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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => London and Middlesex => England => London & Middlesex Lookup Requests => Topic started by: ruthie_gray on Saturday 11 February 12 10:10 GMT (UK)
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My great great grandfather, William Henry Rangecroft, is buried at Ladywell and Brockley Cemeteries. The reference number given by NWKFHS for the memorial inscription is 12030, so I know there must be a headstone/memorial in there somewhere. As I am in Brisbane, Australia, I was wondering does anybody over there in lovely London fancy a trip to the cemetery with their camera? If I could reciprocate either here in Brisbane or in Canberra, please let me know!
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Hi
London civic cemeteries are very large places.
Brockley Cemetery, (formerly Deptford Cemetery) Brockley Road
Ladywell Cemetery (formerly Lewisham Cemetery), Ladywell Road
'Brockley and Ladywell Cemeteries were opened within one month of each other in 1858 and are sited on adjacent plots of previously open land.....The cemeteries occupy 37 acres (150,000 m2) of land.....They are also nature conservation sites of borough importance Grade 1 and a haven for wildlife, plants and wildflowers'
Wikipedia
The nature/conservation part means that older areas of the cemeteries are not maintained. Example of Brockley Cemetery's more overgrown areas - link below
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/2437887
So the first thing is it Ladywell or is it Brockley cemetery? The cemeteries no longer have the wall in place which separated them but never the less it narrows it down if you know whether it is the large cemetery on the left or the large cemetery on the right.
NWKFHS simple outline map
http://www.nwkfhs.org.uk/ladywell.htm
The NWKFHS memorial inscription transcript was done by an individual (he didn't do all of them by any means) in the 1980s so at least 20 years ago. The numbers given by NWKFHS do not relate to plots and to the cemeteries' burial map held by the London borough of Lewisham.
As NWKHS states
'If you want to find a particular gravestone you're very unlikely to succeed by just turning up and searching, unless you have further information beforehand. The cemetery is huge and parts of it are overgrown or wooded. The best approach is probably to contact the Cemetery Office at Lewisham Crematorium, 1 Verdant Lane, London SE6 1TP. They hold the original burial registers for Ladywell and Brockley...'
So the first step is to obtain further details from the London Borough of Lewisham Bereavement Services to obtain the plot number of the grave and a map showing where precisely it is located. Lewisham will not be able to tell you if the gravestone is still standing, but they should be able to tell you whether it is situated in a relatively easily accessible part of the cemetery.
http://www.lewisham.gov.uk/myservices/birthsdeathsmarriagesCP/deaths/Pages/Cemeteries-and-crematoriums.aspx
With that information it would be possible for someone to find the gravestone though it may take sometime depending on where in the cemetery the gravestone is. Volunteers are few and far between on the London and Middlesex board so also consider once you have the information it maybe worth contacting The Friends of Brockley and Ladywell Cemeteries
http://www.foblc.org.uk/
William Henry Rangecroft left a will probated 31st July 1918, died 6th June. The will was probated in London. He lived at 37 Arran Road Catford.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda,
Thanks for your comprehensive reply, I will follow up your tips and see if I can eventually get a picture of the grave. I wish I could go there in person as it looks like a beautiful place!
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Hi did you manage to get photos of your great great grandfathers grave? I went up there last week to look for my great great grandfathers but its huge! I'll be going again in a couple of weeks if you want me too look for you :-)
Elaine
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Hi Elaine,
Thank you so much for your kind offer! I haven't managed yet to get a photo, so if you were going to the Cemetery Office to check the registers for your great great grandfather's plot number and you wouldn't mind searching for mine in the mean time and hunting him down, that would be fantastic! I'd be interested to know what details were provided for the registration as well as to see the grave itself!
William Henry Rangecroft was born in 1850 and died 6 Jun 1818 in Catford. I don't think there would be any other Rangecrofts buried at Ladywell or Brockley so he shouldn't be hard to find (in the register at least, maybe hard to find in the cemetery!). (If there are other Rangecrofts there, I'd love to know who!) If there are any expenses please let me know and I could do a PayPal transfer to you or something.
Thanks once again,
Ruthie
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Hi
I'm pretty sure Ladywell and Brockley cemeteries are closed cemeteries in the sense there are no longer burials going on in the cemeteries. As they are no longer in use I don't think there is an open cemetery office there. When I visited I had to go to Hither Green cemetery which is where Lewisham Bereavement Offices are and where all Lewisham cemetery records are kept, certainly when I visited. Without a plot number and a map these cemeteries are really to vast to search successfully for a grave site.
Regards
Valda
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No problem we will track it down!... Valda is right though the cemetery is huge there are around 35,000 burials there best way is if you search and contact lewisham council they then will do a search for you and hopefully a map of where your GG grandfather is buried they charge £30 for the search .. then I can go get your pictures :-) also seach for Brockley and ladywell cemetery (NWKFHS) they have some trancriptions listed.
Elaine
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Hello Ruthie,
Some-one else on the Forum pointed me in this direction. It's a shame I didn't see it when you first posted - the brambles will be growing well by now. It has taken me over three years just to locate the WW1 CWGC graves. One day I'm going to get arrested for skulking around up there - I've had some strange looks from people.
The NWKFHS listing doesn't follow a pattern for more than half a dozen graves usually, but I may have a bit of an idea where the grave you are looking for is located. If it only has a kerb though, it will be harder. The last one like that I had to dig out where it had sunk.
I have to go down into Lewisham on Tuesday and may get a chance to go up there afterwards. So hang on to your £30 for the moment. As Valda said, the Cemeteries Office is up at Hither Green but they are not very amenable to cold callers.
Phil
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Hi Phil,
Thanks so much for offering to look for William Henry's grave for me! It sounds as if you have a good working knowledge of the Cemeteries. Brambles - of course, it is spring over in England now, here in Australia we're in the throes of autumn!
What a day of celebration you must have had when you found the CWGC graves! I love the mental image of you skulking through the undergrowth... and I'll help with your bail if needs be! :)
William Henry certainly provided a good headstone for his father, son and brother at Nunhead Cemetery, so I'm hoping that his wife did the same for him there at Ladywell and Brockley. I'm not sure why he was not buried in the family plot at Nunhead, his wife had the rights to the plot and another of his sons was buried there after his death. A mystery!
I look forward to hearing of your search, hopefully you'll find it!
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Hi Elaine,
As you can see, Phil is on the case at present, but if he has no luck, I will pay the Cemeteries Office and see what they can tell me, and take you up on your kind offer. Good luck with your search in the meantime - perhaps Phil could give you an indication of where you should look too!
Cheers,
Ruthie
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Hello Ruthie,
That was easy and a day early. It took all of 2 minutes to find. PM me with your email address and I'll send you the photos. Better still if you have a Dropbox account, because I won't have to reduce them down at all. Unfortunately I can't attach a pic on this Board, so you'll just have to wait.
For reference, the grave is in Ladywell Cemetery: Plot D, Grave No. 281.
Inscription:
In
Ever Loving Memory
of
MY VERY DEAR HUSBAND
WILLIAM HENRY RANGECROFT
WHO PASSED AWAY JUNE 6th 1918
AGED 68 YEARS
NOT GONE FROM MEMORY, NOT GONE FROM LOVE
BUT GONE TO A BETTER HOME ABOVE
"Thy Will Be Done"
Phil
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Hi Phil,
You're a national treasure! That's fantastic. I'll PM you with details. Thank you so much!
Cheers,
Ruthie
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Hi Phil,
Thanks so much for offering to look for William Henry's grave for me! It sounds as if you have a good working knowledge of the Cemeteries. Brambles - of course, it is spring over in England now, here in Australia we're in the throes of autumn!
What a day of celebration you must have had when you found the CWGC graves! I love the mental image of you skulking through the undergrowth... and I'll help with your bail if needs be! :)
William Henry certainly provided a good headstone for his father, son and brother at Nunhead Cemetery, so I'm hoping that his wife did the same for him there at Ladywell and Brockley. I'm not sure why he was not buried in the family plot at Nunhead, his wife had the rights to the plot and another of his sons was buried there after his death. A mystery!
I look forward to hearing of your search, hopefully you'll find it!
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Hi Elaine,
As you can see, Phil is on the case at present, but if he has no luck, I will pay the Cemeteries Office and see what they can tell me, and take you up on your kind offer. Good luck with your search in the meantime - perhaps Phil could give you an indication of where you should look too!
Cheers,
Ruthie
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Hi bogeyman
Welcome to Rootschat ;D
Are you having teething problems with your first posts?
To reply to a topic, click on the blue 'reply' button at the bottom of the topic.
If you click 'quote', you get a repeat of what's been said before.
Dawn
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Hi bogeyman
Welcome to Rootschat ;D
Are you having teething problems with your first posts?
To reply to a topic, click on the blue 'reply' button at the bottom of the topic.
If you click 'quote', you get a repeat of what's been said before.
Dawn
Hello
Regarding Ladywell Cemetery I also have family in plot D just to let you know that I am trying to get the cemetery cleaned up as there are a group of people who want the cemetery to remain like a jungle instead of the once beautiful last resting place for our loved ones. It just shows a lack of respect as there are trees and bushes growing out of the graves soon the head stones and monuments will be lost forever and when families come to visit they will have nothing there!!
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Hello not sure if my message regarding the state of ladywell and brockley cemetery was sent could some one let me know please.
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Hello bogeyman,
Yes, it has come through OK.
Compared to Nunhead and Camberwell Old cemeteries, Ladywell is like parkland, although I must admit I haven't been there for a good few months.
Phil
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Hello Phill
Thank you for your reply yes I guess you could say It is at this moment in time a little better than Camberwell and Nunhead Cemeteries but for how long? It is heart breaking for families who have loved ones buried there and I will do my best to get the Cemetery looking like a cemetery a place of respect.
Marian
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Hello Beastmum,
Regarding Ladywell and Brockley Cemetery I also have family buried in plot D the whole cemetery is in a very poor state I'm trying to get it tided up if left as it is there will be no memorials left as the trees and vegetation are growing out of graves and this cannot be right can you help please?
Marian
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I also live not far from Brockley/Ladywell cemetery, as well as Camberwell, Nunhead, and Hither Green and will be visiting over the winter now that the aforementioned brambles and shoulder-high weeds are dying down. So if anyone has people they want me to look for, now is the time to shout. But be warned that even if you pay the £30 and get plot numbers and maps it can still be impossible to find a grave. There are a couple for which I was given all that and descriptions but which have defeated me despite several visits.
Some graves are now being reused and when that happens the new headstones sometimes name the original occupants.
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Hello Chris
Is that a fact that graves are being re used.
Marian
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Marian,
I'm not sure about Ladywell, where they may be family burials in long owned plots, but at Hither Green I have certainly noticed new burials in the old section over the last year or so. Re-use of graves is common practice and is the reason why many of the Ladywell plots appear to be raised. The ground was built up to avoid the new graves being to shallow, I believe.
Phil
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Phil
Thank you for your message I shall be keeping an eye out in Ladywell Cemetery.
Marian
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My Great Grandmother Annie Driscoll died in 1937 Bermondsey, and is buried in this cemetery. I don't hold out much hope of there being a gravestone, but if anyone is pottering about with a camera and do happen to see one, or other Driscoll's such as John (d about 1902) and wife Catherine 1901, then I would absolutely LOVE a photograph.
Thank you to all you helpful people. It does mean such a lot to others.
kind regards
Kerry
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Hello Kerry,
Do you have a plot or grave number that would help to find your ancestor or any idea where in the cemetery they are buried. I have family there but it is so over grown, I am trying my best to get the cemetery cleaned up. if people complain they will have to clear the plot site where you loved one is buried. If I can help you any further please let me know.
Kind Regards
Marian
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Thank you Marion
I shall see if I can find a record of her plot. I am not sure exactly where to look but shall ask. If anyone can help me I would appreciate it?
I am in NZ and unfamiliar with records in UK.
regards
Kerry
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There are several Driscolls at http://www.nwkfhs.org.uk/ldind041.htm but none that match. But that list isn't complete. As it happens, I'm just about to leave for Brockley for something I know I can find and will keep a look out, but don't offer much hope as the weeds won't have died down yet. Keep all fingers and toes crossed. They weren't Roman Catholic by any chance, were they? There's a specific RC section.
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Hello Chris,
Has any work started at the cemetery yet?
Regards
Marian
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Yes, most of the family was RC but Annie may have returned to the RC church - but I cannot be sure.
Thank you and good luck . I am also looking for a Thomas (John) Driscoll who was born in 1880, and may be buried there. Thank you .
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Sorry, Kerry, your toes weren't crossed tightly enough! I didn't find them, but the RC section wasn't on my itinerary. However, that narrows it down a bit for a future visit, and that area is reasonably clear.
There are clear areas appearing, Marian, but some may be just die-back of vegetation for winter. I didn't notice any signs of recent activity by the authorities or the cemetery friends who had a working party yesterday, but I didn't traipse the whole cemetery. However, I did note that Brockley Section G, which I didn't dare enter back in May, has been cleared fairly recently to reveal just half a dozen standing gravestones, not including the one I was hoping for. Whether it's been done by the authorities, or the cemetery friends who had a working party yesterday, I don't know. G is next to V and J in which there is evidence of grave reuse, so perhaps that's what's planned. Were you pressing for clearance of any particular areas?
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Hello Chris,
Thank you for your reply. I am working with support from others to have the whole of the cemetery cleaned up so that we can find the graves and show the respect to our families that are buried there.
Kind Regards
Marian
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Thank you Marion. :)
I would love to help....but live on the other side of the world.
Kerry
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Hello Kerry,
Thank you for you message. I'm trying to get the cemetery cleaned up an email to hither green cemetery to the superintendant would help. I am a local and family historian if I can help you in any way please ask. I have found some Driscoll families buried in the cemetery but with out knowing where you ancestor was born not sure if they are connected to you.
With Kind Regards
Marian
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Hello Marion
I have found my Driscoll's elusive, but I am sure of John and Kate (Catherine) who lived in Hanover st, Princes st, and Elephant Lane, Rotherhithe, and both died around 1901 and 1902. Annie was their daughter and she died 1937 and is definitely in this cemetery.
John and Kate (both born in Ireland between 1832 - 1836) came to Rotherhithe around 1865 had son's Thomas who died of TB in 1894, and also James d 1882, TB. The whole family seemed to be riddled with TB, and there were a number of daughters who died somewhere between 1868 and 1890, incl Ellen, Johanna and Margaret who would have been in their teens, if indeed that old. I have struggled to find their exact deaths. There were 8 daughters. Kate married Mark Henley, and died 1891 along with their daughter. Bridget married Richard Maybank and had 3 sons, but she succumbed to TB about 1910 - not sure where she is buried.
I know that my Driscoll's were probably related to others in this area or nearby - but it is really hard to work out who was family - and there are just so many Driscoll's in the area!
I appreciate you looking for me. Thank you.
Kerry
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Hello Kerry,
I have made a note of the information I will be on the case!
Marian
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Hello Kerry,
Found the deaths for John and Catherine John died 1902 St Olave aged 64 Catherine died 1901 St Olave aged 58 and Bridget Maybank died 1910 St Olave, all the deaths are in the district of Rotherhithe, I would think they all would be buried in the Brockley or Ladywell cemetery as the church yards were full. My family were around the same area my great great grandmother died in 1872 and is buried in Ladywell. More later.
Marian
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Hi
Can anyone give me a rough idea where this grave could be in the Brockley cemetery. I want to take a photo of the headstone .The grave number is 275 plot U . C of E
The family members are Emma Armes 18th Nov 1935, Eliza Armes on 30th Dec 1939, Benjamin Stephen Armes 29th Jan 1940.
Thanks
Karen
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Hi Karen
Welcome to Rootschat ;D
In the first instance, you should contact Bereavement Services at Lewisham Council
http://www.lewisham.gov.uk/myservices/birthsdeathsmarriagesCP/deaths/Pages/Cemeteries-and-crematoriums.aspx
Hope this helps.
Dawn
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There is no specific "U CON" area, so I suppose it must be just the one labelled "U", which is next to the long edge of the depôt at the junction of Merrit Road and Brockley Grove, about here: http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=536843&Y=174818&A=Y&Z=106&ax=536843&ay=174818 You are fortunate that unlike much of the cemetery, Section U is fairly clear. It is in two halves with a path between them. PM me with an e-mail address for a plot map. Beware that the cemetery closes at 3.30pm in the winter months and allow plenty of time to search (and find your way out!) as it's never to find a grave even with the plot number. Be warned that the name Armes doesn't appear on a list of MIs at http://www.nwkfhs.org.uk/ladywell.htm made in the 1980s, but it's known to be incomplete.
Alternatively, I am photographing there regularly and if you can be very patient (I have a large backlog), I'll look for you.
Re Dawn's post: Lewisham may (or may not) have additional information but will charge £20-30 for it, so depending on how far you have to travel or how long you're prepared to wait for me, you may prefer not to pay yet.
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Hi All,
As a child I used to attend Gordonbrock JMI School in Croften Park, Brockley. It meant walking past Ladywell Cemetery every day.
My Grandmother used to collect my younger sister and I to take us home for lunch each day. (We hated school dinners!).
As we walked through the Cemetery she used to point out family graves. (My G/Grandmother Frances Newman (Née Dyer) and some of her children werer buried there).
My Grandmother used to say, - 'There they are, - jump on their graves, - wake the buggers up!'
It didn't work though... they never did!
Romilly ;)
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Hi
thanks for that - i do have a map which indicates where I need to start looking (cant remember now where i got it from , was quite a while ago!) if you do find it please let me know and i will PM my email address.
regards
Karen
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Hello Every One,
I'm pleased to report that the Ladywell side of the cemetery has started to look better since the cutting back of grass and tree's still along way to go though.
Happy Christmas all
Marian
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Hi All,
As a child I used to attend Gordonbrock JMI School in Croften Park, Brockley. It meant walking past Ladywell Cemetery every day.
My Grandmother used to collect my younger sister and I to take us home for lunch each day. (We hated school dinners!).
As we walked through the Cemetery she used to point out family graves. (My G/Grandmother Frances Newman (Née Dyer) and some of her children werer buried there).
My Grandmother used to say, - 'There they are, - jump on their graves, - wake the buggers up!'
It didn't work though... they never did!
Romilly ;)
Hi Romilly
I was at Gordonbrock early fifties great school I loved my time there
remember the cemetery as being very large even then .
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I think that the Victorian part of the School has been knocked down now :(
What a shame!
I think that my Great Grandmother, Frances Newman, (Née Dyer) 1870-1944 has a headstone in that Cemetary, - but I don't have a Grave Number for her.
I live in Hertfordshire now, - but if anyone lives nearby & could take a pic of it, - I would be very grateful.
Cheers, Romilly.
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A question for Phil, Did you get the grave information from visiting the Hither Green Cemetery Office?
I'm also in Australia, I'll have one day in London to find my GRGR Grandmother's grave in June, so after exactly where I need to go, as time will be limited.
Thanks
Debra
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Hi Debra. I'm not Phil, but I'll just interject that since the 2013 discussions, the Lewisham registers have been put online at http://www.deceasedonline.com Not free, but cheaper than £30. You only need the plot number. Don't buy a map as unless they've got a lot more detailed since the ones I've seen in the past, they're no more informative than what's free online.
But if you just provide a name, I might even have a photo of your relatives' grave. If not, with the cemetery and plot number, I can at least tell you the chances of finding it -- some of the Lewisham cemeteries are overgrown and/or disorganised.
Chris
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Thanks Chris,
Sarah Jupp died 21st January 1885, buried 23rd January 1885.
I presume in Ladywell Cemetery, as deceasedonline says Lewisham???
Regards
Debra
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Lewisham is the name of the Local Authority from which deceasedonline got the records, They stopped showing cemetery names a few years back, as it made it too easy to avoid paying! An 1885 burial would be Ladywell or Hither Green. I don't have a Jupp photo at either. The only Jupps found in an MIs list for Ladywell done in the 1980s were William, James & Emma, all 20th century, but that list is not complete. I'm afraid you'll have to pay for a plot number. As deceasedonline says the grave has only 3 burials, it's likely it's a private grave with a headstone rather than a public one (aka com on or pauper's) which is less likely to be marked.
Be warned that they only cut the "grass" in the older areas of B&L and HG once a year and it gets up to head high after April, probably earlier with all this rain, so if you want someone to look, please get a plot number sooner rather than later.
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Thanks Chris for jumping in. You're obviously around earlier than me.
Debra,
As Chris said, the cheapest and quickest option is to use deceasedonline. Definitely avoid their maps though. Ladywell and Hither Green are relatively logical in regards to grave numbering, except for the additional ones they cram in around the edges. Once you have the details, post them here and I'm sure one of us will be able to provide more information. I am only a few minutes walk from Hither Green cemetery.
Phil
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Thank you Chris and Phil, almost midnight here, so will get onto it later.
XX Debra
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wonder if you could find a grave for me my great gran Annie Frances Dowell d 1937 and her son George Dowell d 1921 grave location Ladywell Cemetery D 1781
when a child I used to pass this cemetery on my way to Gordonbrock school but never realised that I had rellies there you don't when young I did go back there a few years ago but it is so large and I didn't have the ref so gave up.
thanks sandie
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Hi Again,
Is it possible to locate a Grave for my GreatGrandmother Frances Newman, (Nee Dyer) 1870 - 1944 please?
Romilly.
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Looks like a public grave. (34 burials)
Lots of different surnames all buried within a short time of each other.
Place of death Lambeth hospital
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Thanks PaulineJ.
Yes, Frances Newman Died in Lambeth Hospital in May 1944.
She was a Widow, Thomas Louis Newman Died in 1917. I doubt that her daughter had the funds to give her a private burial.
Romilly.
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Hello Chris and Phil and friends,
Oh my goodness!!!
3 people are buried in the one grave. My GrGrGr Grandfather Josiah Mills, GrGr Grandmother Sarah Jupp née Mills, and 1C2R Edgar Jupp aged 2.
Grave Reference /Con/2019
Hither Green Cemetery.
If anyone is able to confirm there is a grave there, I would be in your debt. Xx
I was hoping my GrGr Grandfather would turn up there, as I cannot find anything of what happened to his body, but finding the other 2 is a bonus.
I’m happy and sad at the same time.
Thank you both for recommending that I pay the tiny fee to get the details. Big Hugs
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3 people in one private grave isn't unusual. Perhaps you have more space to spread out in Australia! If the number exceeds 6, then it's either a posh vault for a dynasty or (more likely) a common grave, where I've seen up to 50 burials.
The problem here, though, is the plot number. Present numbers at HG are 1 or 2 letters for the section and a number for the grave. I assume /Con/ means Consecrated, i.e. Church of England rather than Roman Catholic or Nonconformist, so perhaps it's near the Anglican chapel. Either there's another column in the register that hasn't been transcribed, or the section naming was different in earlier times. I suspect the latter, having been defeated before by some strange plot specifications at HG. Reading between the lines of other posts, I think someone here has a deceasedonline sub and can look around the register pages and maybe gain some clues from other burials. Otherwise, Phil is a lot closer than me so I'll hand it over to him to look around or ask in the office.
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I agree Chris, the grave reference is spurious. I have responded to a PM from Debra earlier today. Hopefully she has a copy of the burial register, as deceased online had some large transcription errors there a few years ago, when I had a subscription. An 1885 burial will be in the old section. 2091 seems a high number for a grave in HG and may be the register entry number. I did have a wander around yesterday, just on the off chance, but will now wait for Debra's response.
Sandie,
I have found the remaining traces of your Dowell grave and will post later this evening, if I get a chance. Are Fred, Sarah Ann (d. 1932) and John Dowell any of yours?
Phil
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look forward to seeing what you have found forester
you asked about plot nos on the Frances Newman plot X No 184
on Sarah Jupp only other bit apart from 2019 is it says third plot purchased grave reopened
both these are Hither Green
was there any others?
the other 3 dowels you asked about are not mine thanks anyway
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Hello Sandie,
I found the grave but it does not have a headstone and is sunk into the grass and bramble stalks. The front kerb has been laid on the top and after a bit of careful work, I found an engraved inscription to George on it. I found the inscription to Annie on the right hand kerb. Unfortunately I didn't have any water to wash them off. I have sorted out the various photos and will be in touch.
Plot X at Hither Green (Frances Newman) is adjacent to Verdant Lane and may be a grave that contains a number of civilian war casualties.
The Sarah Jupp grave reference remains a mystery.
Phil
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Plot X at Hither Green (Frances Newman) is adjacent to Verdant Lane and may be a grave that contains a number of civilian war casualties.
I've been working along the same line of thought as Phil. Yes, there are a number of WW2 bombing casualties along the edge by the railings, though none with Frances according to a list I have. The nearest marked one is Albert Bridges (https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/24654522) at No 188, so if I have the numbering direction correct, 184 should be 4 graves to its right. I would normally count 8 gentle paces, but common graves could be wider. There are a number of other similar stones along that edge. I've probably photographed them all. Given the names of the 33 people with Frances, one of them might give the exact spot. But be warned: miniature stones like this get moved around whilst cutting the grass, and even Bridges' one may be in the wrong place.
At No 142a is a Frederick Newman (https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/163015300). Any relation? There's a bio at that page. Despite the common graves part of Section X being largely devoid of gravestones, the position of his grave can also be estimated and when I can find time between reading Rootschat postings, I may upload a photo.
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I have just downloaded the Civilian casualty list for Lewisham. There are none shown between 23rd March and 16th June 1944.
Phil
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Thanks for my photos Phil
The fraces newman don't know if it helps but frances was in lambeth hospital on death also 33 people on burial info it also gives both spellings of frances Francis on record
Sandie
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Having now seen a copy of the burial register for Sarah Jupp, it looks like the original numbering system at Hither Green Cemetery was significantly different in 1885 to that adopted some time later.
The layout probably didn't change - the earliest map I have is 1896 and it is the same as the current layout. However, the plots appear to be split into 1st, 2nd and 3rd Grounds. The 3rd Ground included unconsecrated burials and therefore, presumably non-conformist burials. There are two chapels on the site to reflect these needs. The plots were later designated A to F and the graves sequentially numbered in each plot.
The Jupp grave (No. 2019), is a purchased, consecrated grave in the 3rd Ground.
As we don't know if the grave had a headstone, kerb, etc. it looks like the services of Lewisham Bereavement Services will be required to provide some location details.
Phil
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Many Thanks All.
I don't know if Frederick Newman was any relation to my GreatGrandmother Frances Newman or not. Her husband Thomas Louis Newman Died in 1917 at 5 Mount Pleasant Cottage, Loampit Vale, Lewisham, and he might be Buried there. Also their twin babies, Susan and Rose might be there?
I was also wondering if any of the victims of the Catford school bombing might be there too?
Romilly.
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Hello Romilly,
The majority of the Sandhurst Road School victims are buried at Hither Green.
http://lewishamwarmemorials.wikidot.com/names:catford-sandhurst-road-school-ww2-names (http://lewishamwarmemorials.wikidot.com/names:catford-sandhurst-road-school-ww2-names)
http://lewishamwarmemorials.wikidot.com/memorial:hither-green-sandhurst-road-school-ww2-war-memorial (http://lewishamwarmemorials.wikidot.com/memorial:hither-green-sandhurst-road-school-ww2-war-memorial)
Phil
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Thanks Phil, - Yes, I remember now.
My Uncle Don only missed it because he was truanting from School that day!
Cheers, Romilly.
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I don't know if Frederick Newman was any relation to my GreatGrandmother Frances Newman or not. Her husband Thomas Louis Newman Died in 1917 at 5 Mount Pleasant Cottage, Loampit Vale, Lewisham, and he might be Buried there. Also their twin babies, Susan and Rose might be there?
From deceasedonline, Thomas Louis Newman was buried on 17-Mar-1917 in a grave with 31 others in one of the Lewisham cemeteries. According to an Ancestry tree, there was just one daughter, Susan Rose Ellen Newman, born & died in 1911 who could be the one deceasedonline shows buried on 2-Aug-1911 in Greenwich with 11 others.
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Many Thanks Chris, for the further information.
According to my late Grandmother, Susan was a twin, but perhaps the other one didn't survive for long? They were her younger sisters, and she often talked about them, because she said that twins 'ran in her family'.
Romilly.
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According to this family tree (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/106904086/person/380055094941/facts) there was a younger sister, Frances junior, born in 1900, who disappears without trace after 1901. Perhaps that's who your grandmother remembered? Otherwise, maybe Susan had a stillborn twin, not recorded.
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My late Grandmother Beatrice Minnie Newman was Born in Greenwich in 1902.
She had a half brother, Walter Oliver, and two full brothers, Thomas and Alfred. I think the sisters all died in early childhood.
Romilly.
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any luck with locations i live in brockley laddywell
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Debra,
With a bit of invaluable help, I have located where Sarah Jupp's grave is. It is unfortunately unmarked.
I need to take a couple of photos, as the ones' I took to map the area out aren't suitable. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem that I can post photos on this board, so can't share them. I will be in touch with some photos and location information later in the week.
For anyone else looking for early graves in Hither Green, the First Ground appears to start at the old Verdant Lane entrance and follow up past the C of E chapel (Plot A). The Jupp grave is in one of the Third Ground areas and is down at the bottom of the old part, in what is now Plot C.
Phil
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I live several hours drive away from Brockley Cemetery and trying to plan a trip but firstly trying to locate graves to visit.
I have a GG Louisa Adelaide Sheppard [nee Bale] born 1878 & Died 1921 and buried in section Z plot 344.
I think I have found the section on a small map but it looks completely overgrown compared to the rest of the cemetery.
Does anyone know if there are lots of headstones in that section?
Or is anyone able to locate it for me and take a picture of it?
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Sorry, bad news. Brockley Section Z consists of about 600 unmarked common graves behind only 2 or 3 rows of 100 or so monuments on private graves along the edge facing Section X. The unmarked area is covered with long grass and brambles making it impossible to see headstones if, indeed, there are any. However, unlike elsewhere in the cemetery, the growth doesn't mostly reach head height in summer.
This photograph (https://images.findagrave.com/photos/2014/164/24619322_1402786197.jpg) looks across from near the corner with Section X and the road. Your browser may support using the mouse to pan around (shift/wheel) or zoom (control/wheel). On the middle right it's just possible to make out a path which arches across the area towards Ladywell Section G. They keep this mown, enabling you to get a closer view of ... loads of long grass and brambles. I'm afraid I don't have a map of the plot layout to locate any particular grave.
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Thank you for your super quick reply and for the information. I had suspicions the reply would be that sort of information.
looking at deceased online she was interned with about 14 other people non related in Z-344.
Can't find out anything else or even how she died, I am assuming some kind of paupers grave being that many in the same area and unmarked.
I will arrange a day trip to have a wander around.
Again thank you for your help.