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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => East Lothian (Haddingtonshire) => Topic started by: Poppy10 on Wednesday 08 February 12 14:08 GMT (UK)
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Isabella SMITH died between 1861 and 1871 and William SMITH died between 1881 and 1891 at Tranent. Can anyone tell me where I can get information of these burials please.
Poppy10
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Hi Poppy10,
if you go to Scotlands People and buy 30 credits for £7.00 there are four with her name and one match for William both Tranent.
Cheers.
Archie.
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Templar75
Thanks Archie for the look-up. When I've got some more look-ups in this area I will purchase the credits. I am wanting to find Isabella's GAVINE family. On her marriage entry on 17 May 1842 in the Tranent register her father just gave the surname Gavine of Bruslain Mill which I think was in the Portobello area. So I am stuck at the moment.
Poppy10
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Hi Poppy10,
you will find it as Bruntstane Mill which ground Corn and Flour it is actually situated at Eastfield which is about 500 yards from Joppa, Eastfield is just inside the border of Midlothian and the border between Eastfield and Musselburgh is divided by the Magdalene Bridge. ( See Attachment )
I was brought up in that area of Joppa in the sixties but there was no Mill there at that time, when it ceased production I have no idea, the Mill would have been built on an earlier Mill Site and would have been run by the Cistercian Monks.
I have placed an arrow pointing to the Mill and the other pointing to where the Cistercian Monks had a Chapel called St. Mary Magdalene.
The name Brunstane comes from the ancient name of " Burnt Stane " or Burnt stone.
I hope this helps a little bit for you.
Cheers.
Archie.
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Hi Poppy 10,
please excuse me if you have these already.
Cheers.
Archie.
1851 Census for Tranent
Address
No number the High Street Tranent ( North Side )
William Smith 35 Master Boot and Shoe maker born Tranent abt 1816
Isabella Smith 32 Shoemakers wife born Inveresk Musselburgh abt 1819
Isabella Smith 7 Daughter born Tranent abt 1844 Scholar
Adam Smith 6 Son born Tranent abt 1845 Scholar
Robert Smith 3 Son born abt 1848
1861 Census Tranent.
Same Address.
William Smith 45
Isabella Smith 42
The Son Robert is down as an Inmate at Stiells Hospital, this is not worded correctly as it was actually a School for the Poor and the Rich, he must have been sent here to get a better education as this had now become a Fee Paying Boarding School, at Hospital was used instead of School. The Poor children were thrown out.
Margaret Smith 9 Daughter born Tranent abt 1852 Scholar
David Smith 9 Son born Tranent abt 1852 Scholar ( Twins ) Scholar
1871 Census Tranent.
Same Address.
William Smith 54
Margaret Smith 19 Housekeeper
1881 Census Tranent.
Same Address.
William Smith 65
Margaret Smith 29 In the 1891 Census Margaret seems to have vanished.
He must have passed away as he is not mentioned in the 1891 Census
I think this is Adam below, it seems he has left home and is in Haddington as a Grocers Assistant.
1861 Census for Haddington.
Thomas Mithcell 41
Williamina Mithcell 28
Margret Weddel 66
Archibald Strills 33
Adam Smith 17 he is down as a Boarder.
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Templar75
Thank you Archie for the info regarding the Mill. It is definitely down as Brustain in the Tranent parish marriage register so someone couldn't spell it correctly. I'm wondering if Isabella's father didn't attend and she just gave his surname! Isabella Gavine was resident as a servant at Dunse Castle on marriage but in 1841 I found her as Isabell Gavien. I wish I could find her father in 1841, I wonder if he actually lived at the Mill. I will try again giving the correct mill spelling.
I do have the set of censuses you gave me, but thank you for the extra little bits of info regarding the children, it colours it doesn't it.
I got David and Margaret from the IGI - David b abt 27 Nov 1851 ch 14 Dec; Margaret b abt 29 Nov 1851 ch 30 Dec but they must be twins surely. Margaret, as you say, had disappeared by 1891 after father William had presumably died, maybe she got married at last !!
I shall hopefully print out the map you gave me when I've renewed my inks !! ???
Poppy10
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Hi Poppy 10,
I had some credits left and went on to Scotlands People, I tried searching for her at Inveresk and Portobello but nothing was found, if she was born at Inveresk it would probably be at a relations house this was the norm then perhaps her grandmother her mothers mother.
Can you scan the document you have and post it on here please so I can see if there is any clue, we have to watch the spellings of names as they very often vary to a great degree, this can put the best of investigators out with their searches.
Cheers.
Archie.
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Hi Poppy 10,
I know you have these but the two boys have added middle names.
Adam
Isabella
Margaret
David Watson Smith
Robert Gavin Smith
I would say that perhaps one of the boys has Isabella's fathers name, notice Roberts middle name I would say that " Gavin " is the proper surname, and David's middle name is a clue to possibly Isabella's mother or William's mother. It seems that they were members of the " Free Church " so I wonder if Isabella's family were the same if so maybe the records were lost.
Cheers.
Archie.
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Hi Poppy 10,
sorry to bombard you with all this but going by family names I wonder if this is your William Smith's birth, I know it's Gavin you are after so sorry again, as Williams father is mentioned as Adam and the mother Margaret then Adam is one of Williams sons, and they have a daughter Margaret, just a hunch.
I think the Gavin side is a lost cause.
Cheers.
Archie.
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Templar75
Thanks for a bit more logic to go on Archie. I spent three hours yesterday trying to find the Gavines around the Mill area you gave me. I found on the 1841 an Isabella Gavine aged 40 born in Angus, Dundee as head of household with twins John and Hellen aged 15 and another son William. Is it a possibility my Isabella's father was dead when she married I wonder. I'm probably clutching at straws ! I would have thought they would have put deceased in the register.
Cheers
Poppy10
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Hi Poppy 10,
I notice you traced a girl in Angus, your ancestor states she was born in Tranent and married there, I found an Isabela Smith who died in Prestonpans 1850 unfortunately it is not her as she was aged 60, Prestonpans is just down the road from Tranent.
I found her marriage on Scotlands People, it seems it was recorded not only in Tranent but also Dunse, the death of Isabella is really hard to find, I gave the option of her living till 100 but the only one to show up was above.
I just wonder if she left home and let William bring up the kids because on the Census returns he is not down as a widower.
Do you live in Scotland.
Cheers.
Archie.
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Templar75
No Archie, I live in Nottinghamshire and am not likely to get to Scotland to do hands-on research unfortunately.
On my look-ups of the censuses which aren't images it doesn't state the marriage status so it didn't occur to me that William wasn't a widower in 1971, I just assumed wife Isabella had died, and in Tranent.
When I found the Isabella born in Angus about 1801 I just thought this might be the mother of Isabella born about 1821, wife of William. Then they too had an Isabella born 1843 my gt gt grandmother who on her death cert had the middle name Gavine. This Gavine was handed down as the middle name of my mother. So you can see how I am clutching at straws ???
Thanks for your patience ::)
Poppy10
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Hi Poppy 10,
I downloaded what I thought was your William Smith going roughly by the age but all I got was a Farmer wrong man, I think there could be a difference in the age between what he gave in the Census and exact date of birth.
I downloaded their marriage from Scotlands People ( Attached ) and it states her father was a Miller so whether he was in charge or not I have no idea, as you said there is not much to go on, It seems that perhaps he was an Orphan with no parents mentioned.
For Isabella to put down her fathers trade could mean he was probably still alive and her mother is dead but how did she not know his first name, I can see if it was a grandchild but not the child, another hunch is she may have been in care with someone and hardly knew her father.
Cheers.
Archie.
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Hello Archie
I've had a summer break and have just looked at my SMITH/GAVINE file once again. I sent for Isabella SMITH's death certificate to trace the elusive father and I have now got details as follows:- Isabella died on the 23rd May 1865 but I can't make out the place. It looks like sh Pill Tranent. She died of phthisis (tb) so I wondered if it was a sanatorium or the like. It says she was 46 yrs and William was present at death. So I think she must be buried somewhere in Tranent.
The great news is that her father was Robert GAVINE deceased, a Journeyman Miller so that gives reason to his elusiveness !! and her mother was Catherine GAVINE nee RENTON.
Previously you said you found a William SMITH born 13 Feb 1816, ch 17 Mar 1816 at Tranent with parents Adam and Margaret (and these are names of William's children too) so you think this is my William. I think you must be right and I have been thinking his parents were a John and Elizabeth SMITH of Liberton so now I have got to start again on the SMITHs. So thank you Archie for your time and patience with me ::)
Poppy 10
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Hi Poppy10,
is it possible please to let me see the death Cert for Isabella and we can see if I can make out where she died.
Regards.
Archie.
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I haven't a clue how to do that Archie. If I get a visit from my son I'll see if he can do it for me.
Poppy10
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Hi Poppy10,
I think I found it please see photo and map attached, this was Schaws Hospital built in the 1700's formally known as Preston House which is no longer there, this became known as the former Schaws Hopital and was a school for the poor children in the area, as time moved on they started to bring in children who's parents could afford to pay for education.
Eventually the poor children were no longer accepted and it became fee paying only, Isabella probably worked there or even lived in the school may have been her residence but who knows.
Previously you wrote " Previously you said you found a William SMITH born 13 Feb 1816, ch 17 Mar 1816 at Tranent with parents Adam and Margaret (and these are names of William's children too) so you think this is my William. ".
I would say yes as the naming tradition in Scotland seems to have been kept on by the family.
Regards.
Archie.
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Hello Archie
I have managed to get a friend to make an extract copy of Isabella Smith's death cert, the bit that I can't interpret as to where she died in Tranent. Do you still think it's Shaws Hospital. I think the second word starts with a Pe and then possibly an apostrophe then ll. See what you think.
The whole cert was too big it kept telling us.
Poppy10
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Hi Poppy10,
I have searched on the John Gray Centre's archives online,
http://www.johngraycentre.org/collections/getrecord/ELLOH_Courier_26051865
and found a few entries, related to the death of Isabella Smith nee Gavine. You can contact the centre and ask if you can get a copy of article, or ask if it states where she died, the staff may give this detail without purchasing, but it is only 15p a copy plus postage.
SMITH, ISABELLA: or GAVINE: TRANENT: DIED Page 2, Column 4 Issue date 26 05 1865
SMITH, WILLIAM: BOOT AND SHOEMAKER: TRANENT Page 2, Column 4 Issue date 26 05 1865
GAVINE, ISABELLA: or SMITH: TRANENT: DIED Page 2, Column 4 Issue date 26 05 1865
Tom
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Hi Poppy 10,
I am almost sure it is what the person has done is abbreviated the Schaws to " Sh " and Hospital to "Pitle " a stupid way of doing it, I will double check but I am sure it is where we first thought off.
Cheers.
Archie.
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Hi Poppy10,
back again, I am unable to find any other place than the one we have found below is something for you on the Hospital.
From my point of view it could be that after the school closed the building was rented out to families and this where I think she actually lived, possibly renting a room or two fromwhoever owned the building
Tranent must have been the registration place for births, marriages and deaths but Schaws Hospital was actually in Prestonpans.
Schaw’s Hospital 1789–1881
This school for boys ‘whose parents are in poor circumstances’
opened in Preston House in 1789; it was funded by the
considerable income from a trust fund set up by Doctor James
Schaw, owner of most of the old Preston estate from 1780
until his death four years later. Boys aged between four and
seven could be admitted, educated until aged 14; those with
the names of Schaw, MacNeill, Cunningham and Stewart,
were preferred. For many years the 19 trustees outnumbered
the students (15). The trustees were to ‘bind the boys as
apprentices, or otherwise let them out to businesses as they
shall judge best’. The number of students later increased to 24.
In 1832 the school left Preston House, moving to a new
building nearby, designed by William Burn. The school closed
in 1881, a few years after the 1872 Education Act made parish
schools a legal necessity.
Cheers.
Archie.
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Hi Archie,
Tranent and Prestonpans both had registrars, therefore Schaws Hospital deaths would have been registered in Prestonpans. There was a Steills Hospital on the site of the St Joseph's home, which would come under Tranent registration.
I had a look earlier but "sh pe'll" only looks like "sh" for Stiells Hospital and "pe'll" short for Portobello Mains, which is in the same area.
Tom
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Yes, I can see what you are thinking now, and you must be right.
I wonder if husband William caught the tb from her, though he was on the 1871 census.
Isabella's daughter, another Isabella (my gt grandmother down in Lee, Kent) she also died of tb and her husband caught it and died shortly afterwards. Then their second daughter also died with it, it's quite prevalent this maternal side of the family.
Thanks once again Archie
Poppy10
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Hello Tidybooks (Tom)
Thank you for your look-up on the John Gray Centre site regarding my Isabella SMITH nee GAVINE's death. I want to purchase a photocopy of the page you found so I think I will have to ring the Local History department to see how to go about the remit. I still haven't found the date of death of her husband William between 1881 and 1891 censuses, but when I do I will hopefully also get his announcement. What a great source the Centre must be.
Thank you once again.
Poppy10
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After climbing up the wrong tree for the parents of my gt gt grandfather William SMITH, I have now got his parents as Adam SMITH and Margaret SMITH thanks to the help of Archie (Templar75). I think they had ten children christened in Tranent namely:
John abt 1814; my William 1816; Mary 1818; Anstruther 1820; Janet Sharpe 1821; Margaret 1823; Ann Dewar 1825; Adam 1828; Walter Campbell and Charles both 1831.
On the 1841 census for Tranent wife Margaret was down as a widow so Adam must have died between 1831 the date of the last born and 1841 but I can't find the date of death or birth of either him or wife Margaret, and I have searched several record sites. I must say that I can't get on with the new Familysearch site.
I should think that they both died in Tranent so are they in the Tranent churchyard or can anyone look at the parish register please.
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Hallo Poppy10
Like you I live in the Midlands, but I have friends in East Lothian so might be able to pick this up if you're still pursuing it.
My interest in the Smiths and the Gavines is that my house was built by a young widow called Violet Evaline Smith-Gavine (née Moody) who changed her name from Smith to Smith-Gavine shortly after marriage. She was the mother of Professor Sydney Smith-Gavine of Leicester.
So I don't know if you are related to them...