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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cornwall => Topic started by: jmusher on Sunday 05 February 12 10:27 GMT (UK)
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Hi all,
I am trying to find the birth and Parents of William Bawden born about 1800 in Cornwall.
William married Elizabeth Hosking Williams on 16 April 1821 at St Hilary Maraizon. Some old family correspondence I have mentions that the marriage certificate listed an Edmund Bawden as one of the witnesses.
William emigrated to Australia in 1839 with his wife and one son, which is how I get a possibe birthdate of 1800. The ships manifest lists him as an engineer. I have not been able to find anything at St Hilary
Hoping someone can help, I am really stuck here! If you can point me in the right direction I would really appreciate it.
Thankyou,
Jodie
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1821 marriage in St Hilary gives the bride as Mary and William as a sojourner, so not settled in the parish
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=marriages&id=553230
You can check the images online at the new FamilySearch site as St Hilary records are browsable. Bride definitely Mary, but I wouldn't like to say for sure that the Bawden witness is Edmund. It ends in a d, but I wouldn't like to go much further.
Mary was baptised 12/8/1798
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=baptisms&id=1330178
& her brothers who were witnesses
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=baptisms&id=1330440
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=baptisms&id=1330090
marriage of parents explaining the Hosking
http://v1.cornwall-opc-database.org/moreinfo.php?ID=552656&dbtype=marriages&formval=
Do the names of their children give any clues to names of the Bawden grandparents?
:-\
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Thankyou Osprey,
That is a start! Thanks for helping me find the image. You are right about the Edmund. Not definitive at all. We only know of one son, Thomas (no middle name ::) ) He came to Australia with them, any other children were presumably fostered with either Mary or William's family.
...However, Thomas sparked off a dynasty. Some middle names that may be significant:
Trefusis (this name is very strong in the family but believed to be a very early Bawden connection eg "Mr Bawden was made a freed man of the Castle Trefusis in 1450")
Warne
Penberthy
Dobie
Connor (unusual for a female middle name?)
These names may be a place to start?
With William listed as a sojourner, could we expect that his home parish was a long way away? Or could he have been from just up the road so to speak?
I can see that a Bawden married a Warne in Perranuthnoe in 1836 (only a few miles away) wrong gender (and timeframe) to be grandparents, but maybe friends of the family? Perranuthnoe is close by. What do you think? I cant see anything for any of the other names I have mentioned.
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sojourner gives no clue to where he came from, just that he recently came to St Hilary.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,566850.0.html
Warne/Wearn is common in the area, Penberthy is from West Cornwall. Don't think I've come across Dobie. Could it be Doble?
There's more than enough Bawdens in the surrounding area
These might be the burials for Mary's parents & residence might help with the relevance of Penberthy
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=burials&id=1502666
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=burials&id=1502579
So the names might not just be surnames.
;)
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Penberthy would appear to be associated with mining. Was William a mining engineer?
http://www.cornwallinfocus.co.uk/history/pcrofts.php
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Righto. Penberthy connection noted. Dobie was the name for two generations of Bawdens, no idea of its origin.
I might take a look at first names as well.
Upon arriving in Australia, William (almost immediately it seems) took a job as an engineer on the Steamship "King William" heading to Grafton.
Might this mean that he would likely have been from a coastal area of Cornwall back home? Would his engineer skills have been transferrable to mining, or is ships engineer specific enough to mean that "ships" were his area?
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there's more coastal Cornwall that not - coast line is about 200 miles
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/Cornwall/
:-\
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Maybe I can rule out the Bawdens of Gwennap? Gwennap isn't coastal ;)
(They had a William Bawden in 1797 who was a possible contender)
Perhaps if we can find Thomas Bawden's (William and Mary Hosking's son) place of birth we might have somewhere to go?
He was born on 24 October 1832 (or maybe 1833 if I trust the ships manifest).
I have been unable to locate his birth...
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Gwennap might not be right on the coast, but it's only about 5 miles from Penryn
http://www.cornwall-opc.org/MAPS/parish_map.pdf
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/Cornwall/StGluvias/
I can't find a baptism for Thomas in Cornwall. Could there be non-conformity in the family?
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There could be, I dont know.
The approximate date we have for Williams birth is 1800.
The Gwennap date is 1797. There is also a 1799 birth at Breage (but still no sign of Thomas anywhere)
If he was a marine engineer, could Thomas have been born elsewhere in England? Or even off the continent?
I know I am reaching here, but it is very puzzling.
update:
I just found our Thomas' birth. A birthplace of South Wales is listed! The "grooms parents" listed are actually the brides parents, with Hindmand being a transcription error for Hindmarsh.
....South Wales?
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCL-XQT
update:
found an ancestry.com family tree which lists his birth as 24 Oct 1832 at Begelly Parish, Pembroke County, South Wales. There user has no parents for Thomas listed and no batch number etc ::). I cant find this birth by doing my own search, maybe I am looking at the wrong genealogy site (igi)?
Should I get this post moved to the Wales section?
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Bawden is a common enough name in Cornwall, he may have been born there. Problem is that you have no pointers to search from. He's not on any census, he marries before civil registration, so there's only a parish record. The Bawden witness is probably related, but there's planty of Edward Bawdens in the area.
I don't suppose his death reg is one of those that has names of parents on it?
:-\
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I dont have a death registration for William... he drowned in Australia in 1941, two years after arriving, when Thomas was 8. NSW births deaths and marriages has nothing (that I can find).
So we are stuck. :(
****I am going to post a question regarding the birth of Thomas Bawden in the Wales forum****
(I hope this isnt the dreaded double posting we are warned about.)
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err, it is actually. You need to link to this post if you do that so people don't waste effort.
What makes you think he may have Welsh connections? It's certainly not a Welsh surname in origin.
::)
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here is the link:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,580678.0.html
Sorry about that.
Here is why I am looking at Wales for Thomas:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XTCL-XQT
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Hi Jodie and Osprey,
Application for Assisted travel lists
William BAWDEN of Marizon [sic] Cornwall, the son of William BAWDEN of the same place, Mine Agent.
William BAWDEN was aged 39 years in April 1838 baptism certified 5 Apr 1800 St :-\ (Image included, and moved to general board for viewing)
Henry FRANCIS, Paul HANCOCK and William CRAPP (all of Wheal Virgin) certified to him being of very good Character.
Calling Engineer
His health was very good,
Religion Wesleyan,
He could read and write
Mary H BAWDEN aged 40 years on the 23 July 1838, a native of Marizon, [sic] daughter of John and Martha WILLIAMS of St Hillary, farmer
Calling - always assisted with her parents farm
baptisms certified 12 Aug 1798 by Thos [BISSIN]? Vicar
no certificate of character
health good
Religion C of E
Could read and write
Child Thomas aged 6 years on the 24 Oct 1838 (no certificate)
Australian Town and Country Journal 27 Feb 1897, list Thomas as from Pembrokeshire
http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/71290453
Cheers Kris :)
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WOW! Thanks :D ... now if only we could read that word!
looks like "ane" at the end of the word.
So Williams father was a William as well and a mine agent from Maraizon?
GREAT :D ;D
We are getting somewhere now!
...and Pembrokshire, you found it. nifty.
Where can I find the complete document? Is it publicly available?
Thankyou
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Hi Jodie,
Unfortunately there is no parish in Cornwall to match what I am looking at here, which to me looks like Saint Wiane. (St Wenn is the only thing to spring to mind-could be possibly how the accent was interpreted, but no luck with a baptism to match)
http://investigator.records.nsw.gov.au/Entity.aspx?Path=\Series\5314
Cheers Kris :)
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Hi Kris,
It is a shame, but I am happy that we now know more than we did before.
I very much appreciate the help from both you and Osprey.
...William just doesn't want to be found.
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just had alook for Wheal Virgin & it's no distance from Penberthy Crofts
http://www.cornwallinfocus.co.uk/history/ennyswv.php
http://www.cornwallinfocus.co.uk/history/pcrofts.php
Don't think this is in the links, but might be worth keeping an eye on
http://www.geevor.com/index.php?page=60
There's another mining museum as well
http://www.poldark-mine.co.uk/sitemapheritage.htm
;)
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OK thanks Osprey. Nothing coming up so far, but my feeling after noting this (and the fact that he named his first property in Australia "Penberthy") is that his connections are likely in the area.
But I do think Prue was on to something with her interpretation of "St Wenn(e)" but, maybe it was actually an abbreviation of something else? might never know ::)
I might contact one of the museums to see if they have any bits of paper relevant to our quest.
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In the 1841 census, I have found a William Bawden (age 86 maybe our Williams father) and Margaret Bawden 59 (wife? daughter?) "Household Work" in Penzance Union Workhouse.
Penzance is very close to both Marazion and Penberthy...
UPDATE: ruled this William and Margaret out.
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Penzance would have been the union for Marazion, but there was some sort of building in Marazion
http://www.workhouses.org.uk/Penzance/
It could be the name of the church rather than the parish. Church in St Wenn is St Wenna, but there are no Bawden baptisms there. Church in Gwennap, very much nearer Marazion, is St Wenappa, Wedton is St Wendron(a).
:-\
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:-\ is right.
seems there were all manner of William Bawdens all over Cornwall, including Marazion.
I found another possibility, but cant confirm it.
(As the Wesleyan circuit doesnt begin until later, maybe they were C of E prior? ...But I cant find an indication of faith for the record below)
Marazion:
Thomas Bawden m Christian
Children
William b 1774 (Baptism 17 Mar 1744)
Thomas b 1776
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/NJYB-JJK
Could the William above be father to our William? ???
...but then going back to the term "sojourner" should I be looking in this area at all? He and his father (at least) did live in Marazion, but looking at the specific meaning of sojourner, should I assume that he hasnt been there three weeks at the time of his marriage, or is the term used merely to indicate that he was of another faith?
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I think I mentioned on the other thread that before the Marazion circuit, there was the St Ives circuit which was one of the earliest. BUT, it looks like the records don't survive.
http://west-penwith.org.uk/wpenchp2.htm
Any parish record you find is anglican/C of E in England & Wales at this time. He wasn't of another faith as I'm pretty sure he was Christian, he was of another denomination. And no, sojourner was not meant to refer to this as it shows he wasn't settled in the parish. When he became a Methodist is an unknown. He may have been baptised in the established church like his wife.
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Thanks Osprey :)
...quite right about the difference between "faith" and "denomination". I must be tired ::)
I think I have to leave it for a while now, maybe more records will become available down the track maybe not. I can see hints of him here and there, but nothing definite, it is all conjecture at this stage.
I appreciate all your help very much.
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I think I have found him.
I got an email from a lovely lady at Cornwall Legacy, who made me think I should be looking for a separate established church baptism, in addition to the Wesleyan (she was unable to find the Wesleyan baptism) as it was often a condition of being married in the established church. So... with that in mind, I took another look at the immigration application which stated that William Bawden was 39 in April 1838. This meant that I was looking for baptisms after April of 1799, separate to the listed 5 April 1800, The only one that came up in cornwall which I hadn't previously ruled out (because of census data etc) was a William Bowden son of William and Alice, in June 1799, at Mylor. Looking further I saw that they had two daughters (one died within the first year) both spelt Bawden.
Mylor just happens to be where Trefusis manor once stood, Trefusis being the name of numerous early family properties in Australia, as well as the middle name for about 8 descendants.
As William and Alice Bawden of Mylor do not show up in the census at Mylor in 1841 I can be fairly confident that they did move. Other William & Alices in the 41 census have been ruled out as being the same ones from Mylor. Maybe Alice died early (fairly likely with only 3 children?) I know that absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but....
So I am pretty happy with this result, it fits well.
Thanks for all of your help Osprey ;D
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I'm going to disagree with your lovely lady. There was no choice about where to marry at the time and I'd be pretty sure that members of older non-conformist denominations like the Baptists would not be baptised in the established church, so why would it be different for Wesleyans? It could be that he was baptised in the established church as a child and then became a Methodist.
I have Baptists from Pembrokeshire in one family line and I've looked at the records for the parish. This parish had a high level of non-conformity in the 1790s/1800s & there are very few baptisms in the records, several years without a single one. There are marriages though, plenty of them & some burials. The vicar filled the blank page one year with an account of a sudden storm that drowned at least 20 fisherman. It must have been a very quiet living for him. ::)
But I'm not saying that Mylor baptism isn't a possible though. My Sithney family went back & fore to Budock & St Martin In Meneage for work, and Mylor to Marazion isn't that much further.
burial for Alice
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=burials&id=702761
baptisms
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=baptisms&id=988187
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=baptisms&id=988104
burial of first Mary - on my birthday!
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=burials&id=842381
But there is a marriage in Mylor that could be the William you found with sister Mary as witness
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=marriages&id=449589
& William witnesses her marriage as well
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=marriages&id=449668
several baptisms to William & Harriet in the parish, he is noted as mariner.
Have a look at this site for transcribed records, Mylor isn't complete, baptisms from 1801 only .
http://v1.cornwall-opc-database.org/personsearchdb.php
:-\
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Ah. :-\
Disappointing. It may be possible, but not very likely. For some reason I couldn't find those results where I was looking (on IGI. )
Now, to wait until some obsure diaries are found and transcribed.....
Thanks for the links Osprey :)
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I have Bawden and I have Penberthy. Our location is Phillack for the 1800's. Some, including some of mine, went to Australia. Not sure if this will match or not, but maybe. :)
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I have Bawden and I have Penberthy. Our location is Phillack for the 1800's. Some, including some of mine, went to Australia. Not sure if this will match or not, but maybe. :)
Maybe Jenny!
First I should let you know that this conversation started again here :
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,622896.0.html
where we have made some headway.
Do you know what sate in Australia they ended up? My direct line came to NSW, but indirectly others from my family went to South Australia. Penberthy, as I guess you have seen from an earlier post is both a middle name for a first generation Australian descendant, and the birthplace of the parents of the last Bawdens from my line married in Cornwall. There are ever so many Bawden's in the area though... and quite a few would have come to Australia... Do you have any online tree or other suggestions on how we might investigate the possibility further?
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The one I know about was Stephen Penberthy, who died in 1880 in Pinkertons Plains, South Australia. I'm sure there are distant cousins in other parts of Australia. I don't know of any Bawdens who went to Australia, but there are Bawdens in that particular Penberthy line. Stephen's great grandfather was Joseph Bawden born 1768 in Phillack, married to Ann Bawden. Joseph died 1835 in Lethlean.
I'll have to go and read the thread you mentioned.
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Thanks for your reply Jenny :)
From that info, I think it is probably a coincidence, though if we went back far enough we might find a connection!
The new thread is very long, and not for the faint hearted!
Thanks again for stopping by to assist :)
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I have several William Bawden's in my line born about 1800. One whose parents were John and Susan, the other parents were Benjamin and Elizabeth. This has been a difficult line to follow. Would like to be able to clean it up. Thanks, RedFox