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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: laroche on Saturday 04 February 12 21:10 GMT (UK)

Title: no birth certificate, mary ann roach
Post by: laroche on Saturday 04 February 12 21:10 GMT (UK)
i am trying to find the birth of my gt gt grandmother born 1855/56 in clerkenwell. i cant locate a birth certificate and cant seem to find her on 1861 census, her name is mary ann roach, and father according to marriage certificate is henry roach (butcher) i need to find proof of her birth and mothers name, any help would be most welcome thankyou.
Title: Re: no birth certificate, mary ann roach
Post by: stanmapstone on Saturday 04 February 12 21:12 GMT (UK)
In the early years of registration not all births were registered, the first Statistician of the GRO  Dr. William Farr (1807–1883) estimated a 5% non-registration rate for births 1837-76, declining from  6.9% in 1841-50 to 1.8% in 1861-70.

Stan
Title: Re: no birth certificate, mary ann roach
Post by: carol8353 on Saturday 04 February 12 23:35 GMT (UK)
Who and when did she marry,and who were the witnesses?

Which is the first census you find her on and what is the ref?

It may be that she was born illegitimately with a different surname and that she made the name Henry Roach up as her dad for respectibility on the marriage cert.We've all got one of more of those  ;D

Carol
Title: Re: no birth certificate, mary ann roach
Post by: pinefamily on Sunday 05 February 12 00:27 GMT (UK)
Or as in my case, she may have been born under a different name, and then her mother married Hnery Roach later. My grandmother was born a Carrington, which was her mother's name. There was the dreaded blank spot on the father's name. Her mother subsequently married a Mr. Turner, whose name my grandmother adopted.
Rather than locating her, try looking for Henry Roach in the 1871 and 1861 censuses.
Title: Re: no birth certificate, mary ann roach
Post by: MagicMirror on Sunday 05 February 12 11:01 GMT (UK)
You say you can't find a birth certificate.
Have you eliminated Mary Ann ROACH in Holborn district, 1st qtr 1856. Vol1b p473. 

I'm not 100% on London geography but Clerkenwell isn't far from Holborn
Title: Re: no birth certificate, mary ann roach
Post by: silvery on Sunday 05 February 12 12:02 GMT (UK)
If you click on the name of the district (in freebmd) it gives you the list of places it covers.    Holborn covers Clerkenwell.
Title: Re: no birth certificate, mary ann roach
Post by: laroche on Sunday 05 February 12 12:47 GMT (UK)
magic mirror, i have tried that one years ago, but maybe will have to look at it again,thabkyou.
Title: Re: no birth certificate, mary ann roach
Post by: laroche on Sunday 05 February 12 12:49 GMT (UK)
stanmapstone, thankyou for the statistics info, that is always of course a posibility i wasn`t aware of thankyou.
Title: Re: no birth certificate, mary ann roach
Post by: laroche on Sunday 05 February 12 12:54 GMT (UK)
pine family,thankyou for the info, i will try looking in the census for henry roach, trouble is we don`t know anything else about him,only that he is listed as a butcher in 1876 on marriage certificate of mary ann roach,
thanks again.
Title: Re: no birth certificate, mary ann roach
Post by: carol8353 on Sunday 05 February 12 12:54 GMT (UK)
Who and when did she marry,and who were the witnesses?

Which is the first census you find her on and what is the ref?


Carol

The trouble is that 1856 Holborn girl doesn't seem to appear on the 61 or 71 censuses  ::)

Can you please answer my questions from yesterday so we can try and work backwards from what you do know.

Quite often marriage witnesses can be family members and that helps enormously too.

Carol
Title: Re: no birth certificate, mary ann roach
Post by: laroche on Sunday 05 February 12 13:05 GMT (UK)
mary ann roach married william thomas oct 8th 1876st marks church islington witnesses, william fraser and mary thomas.
census ref i have are 1881 rg11 piece 260 folio 78 page 24, and 1901 rg 13 piece 165 folio 82 page 3.and 1911 at 21 corbyn street islington, thats all i have on her apart from her daughters birth certificate.
Title: Re: no birth certificate, mary ann roach
Post by: laroche on Sunday 05 February 12 13:17 GMT (UK)
yes you are right carol sorry, also i am still learning how to use this site, so if i send a message to the wrong plce its not deliberate, thanks
Title: Re: no birth certificate, mary ann roach
Post by: laroche on Sunday 05 February 12 13:27 GMT (UK)
silvery thanks for clerkenwell/ holborn info, all info helps, thanks.
Title: Re: no birth certificate, mary ann roach
Post by: pinefamily on Monday 06 February 12 07:20 GMT (UK)
I don't currently have access to ancestry, but someone might look up Henry Roach for you in the 1871 census. There can't be too many in London, especially who were butchers.

Darren
Title: Re: no birth certificate, mary ann roach
Post by: carol8353 on Monday 06 February 12 08:02 GMT (UK)
On Find MY Past you can search by occupation,which I have already done for 1861. You can't do that in 1871 but there are none that fit age wise in London anyway.
Title: Re: no birth certificate, mary ann roach
Post by: sallysmum on Monday 06 February 12 08:42 GMT (UK)
Have you tried different spellings of the name Roach?
Roche Rotch Roshe Rotch.....

sallysmum
Title: Re: no birth certificate, mary ann roach
Post by: carol8353 on Monday 06 February 12 09:45 GMT (UK)
Have you tried different spellings of the name Roach?
Roche Rotch Roshe Rotch.....

sallysmum

FindMyPast does that for you!
As long as you tick the box,so it does Harry for Henry as well.
Title: Re: no birth certificate, mary ann roach
Post by: sallysmum on Monday 06 February 12 09:54 GMT (UK)
Didn't know that - thanks for sharing Carol!

sallysmum
Title: Re: no birth certificate, mary ann roach
Post by: alpinecottage on Monday 06 February 12 11:56 GMT (UK)
A possible scenario:
In 1871, I can only find one 17yr old Mary Ann Roach, working as a servant for the Young family on Greys Inn Road.  Mary Ann born Ratcliffe Highway.

In 1861, there is a 6 year old Mary Ann Elizabeth Roach, born Middlesex, living with Samuel Roach, wife Sarah, son Henry, D in Law  Ann Smith and another family unit George Smith, wife Catherine and infant George Alfred,  at 8 Cromer Street, RG9 105.  Strangely, no relationship is written for Mary Ann Elizabeth and she was the only one Middlesex born  - Samuel, Sarah, Henry Roach and Ann Smith were all born in Gloucestershire.  Samuel Roach married Sarah Smith in 1858, so Mary Ann E could be their illeg daughter or the illeg daughter of one of Sarah's son's or daughters .

I wondered if Mary Ann Elizabeth was born a Smith, and sure enough, there are three Mary Ann Elizabeth Smith births registered in 1855/6, two in St Pancras and one in Stepney.  Ratcliff was in Stepney at that time.

I don't know where the Henry Roach the butcher comes from, unless it was just an assumed father for respectability's sake.  The Henry who Mary Ann appears to be  living as a sister with remains a bootmaker.

If no better story can be found and this was my family, I would look into this further, possibly buy the birth cert and see where it leads.