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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: RedMystic on Friday 03 February 12 14:47 GMT (UK)
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Happy Friday Chatters!
A story came up in my family searching but I have nothing but a few anecdotes to direct me. Please help me find anything about Gertrude Ayton of Edinburgh including a picture. I know it's a long shot, but if she was an actress then perhaps something exists.
Here's the background:
James Andrew COPLAND (b.29 Nov 1891-Edinburgh, Scotland d.10 Jan 1895-Edinburgh, Scotland) was a dentist in Edinburgh. He started the Scottish blood transfusion service in the 1920s. He was also an an "amateur thespian" (according to my husband's Grandpa who died many years ago).
James married Gertrude Ayton, an "actress of renown" (also according to my husband's grandpa). This marriage may have occurred before 1914, but again, that's anecdotal.
I can't find anything about Gertrude - and would particularly love a picture if that is remotely possible. If she, as family lore has it, was a actress in Edinburgh in the early part of the 1900s, perhaps a talented Chatter can find a bio & photo.
My Google search is only pulling up one link & that won't open for me. Thanks for any sleuthing you can do.
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Hi
A Gertrude Ayton is mentioned here http://www.its-behind-you.com/howardwyndham.html as being in Dick Whittington in 1926/27 at the Kings Theatre Edinburgh, but that's all I can see.
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If the link was to Trove that seems to be to a legal notice for the estate Elizabeth Gertrude Ayton a spinster who died in Australia.
The other link I found quickly was to "It's Behind You" - 60 years of pantomine at Howard & Wyndham. She's listed in 1926-27 Dick Whittington at the Kings Theatre Edinburgh
http://www.its-behind-you.com/howardwyndham.html
No entries that I found in the online version of the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography for either of the couple.
I'll look a bit more.
(just seem groom has also found the panto)
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Hi,
I'm not sure if this is her;
http://special.lib.gla.ac.uk/sta/search/resultspe.cfm?NID=33102&EID=15310&DID=&AID=
I think the years given for James need another look. ;)
Nanny Jan
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Lots of results on the Scottish Theatre Archive site - mainly at the Alhambra Theatre Dundee & the Charles Simon Players:
http://special.lib.gla.ac.uk/sta/search/resultspe.cfm?NID=33102&EID=15310&DID=&AID=
Looks as though this may be a resource worth looking at for more info.
(Sorry groom - I'm not really trying to be an echo)!
A newspaper report from the Glasgow Herald 1921
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2507&dat=19211219&id=6ZdAAAAAIBAJ&sjid=N6UMAAAAIBAJ&pg=5853,5697397
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It was Nanny Jan that found that one. ;D ;D ;D Strange there isn't a biography anywhere.
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Thank you for the link mshgmh & groom. That's the link that I found too, but the dang thing times out & won't open. ??? ::) ;D I'll give it another go in a hour or so to see if my computer likes it any better. ;)
Thank you Nanny Jan. That link works for me. :) If this is her, she's acting much later in the 1900s than I would have thought. I can see the plays she was in, but no detail on the woman herself.
I'll take another look at James' dates. James was my husband's grandfather's nephew & I'm relying on info from another member of the family.
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Lots of results on the Scottish Theatre Archive site - mainly at the Alhambra Theatre Dundee & the Charles Simon Players:
http://special.lib.gla.ac.uk/sta/search/resultspe.cfm?NID=33102&EID=15310&DID=&AID=
Looks as though this may be a resource worth looking at for more info.
(Sorry groom - I'm not really trying to be an echo)!
A newspaper report from the Glasgow Herald 1921
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2507&dat=19211219&id=6ZdAAAAAIBAJ&sjid=N6UMAAAAIBAJ&pg=5853,5697397
TX mshrmh. I haven't had time to check these yet. Must go walk the dog - back shortly.
Thanks to all for the help so far! :)
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Sorry - groom & nanny jan for mixing you up!
I wondered if the Charles Simon Players were a local group (amateur/semi-pro/rep) - the only links I found for them were the same source.
If you can find either date of death there might be something in a local paper at least, that would probably mean a visit to an archive or paying them for research.
The online Guardian/Observer archive (via my local library) has a mention of her appearance in "The Weir of Hermiston" at Theatre Royal Edinburgh (Observer 13.03.1921). Nothing found for him under his full name - there are numerous results for James Copland & Andrew Copland - would need clearer dates to check them out.
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I'll take another look at James' dates. James was my husband's grandfather's nephew & I'm relying on info from another member of the family.
I'm guessing a typo but you have James b.1891 and d.1895...........
Nanny Jan
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Good catch on the husband Nanny Jan! I copied the wrong brother when I first posted.
John Robert COPLAND (b.14 Mar 1889-Lerwick,SHI,SCT d.29 Mar 1949-Edinburgh,MLN,SCT)
sp: Gertrude M. AYTON (m.1916)
When I Googled the Scottish Blood Transfusion Service it gives the name Jack R. Copland. (In Canada it wasn't uncommon for fellows named John to be called Jack. I know of several in their 60s for whom this is the case. Is it the same in Scotland?)
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Hi Red
It's certainly the same in England. My Dad (also named John Robert) was a lifelong Jack :)
Can see no reason why it shouldn't be the same in Scotland
Linda
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Nothing I could find in the Guardian/Observer archive for him under any variant.
I did find this about Jack & his son John - you may have seen it, but in case as includes a photo of the son: http://snbtssecure.scot.nhs.uk/early_years.asp
Similar (no photo) with a detail on crusaders:
http://www.lhsa.lib.ed.ac.uk/collections/GD14/gd14_tlfa.htm
Memories from the son (then 90) of both his own & his father's work:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/tayside_and_central/7438251.stm
There's a lot about their work out there, nothing too obvious about the family.
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Some early reviews from the Scotsman.
27 Feb 1912 – “A thoroughly enjoyable performance of the comic opera, “Falka,” was given last night in the Theatre-Royal by “The Bohemians,” the local amateur lyric opera company” …………………….. “Mr Gertie Ayton acted with spirit and impressiveness as Alexina”.
01 Dec 1913 – Performance by the Edinburgh Windsor Dramatic Club of “Hero Mine”, “a farcical comedy of distinct possibilities”, given in the Philosophical Institution, Edinburgh. “capable part was taken by Miss Gertie Ayton ……….”
12 Jan 1914 – Entertainment at a “ladies night”, at the Geoghegan Solfeggio Club, Edinburgh, given by “The Bohemians,” Amateur Lyric Opera Company. Among those contributing was Gertie Ayton.
29 Jan 1915 – Performance of comedy “Caste”, by the Windsor Dramatic Club in the Lauriston Hall, Edinburgh. Miss Gertie Ayton played Polly.
13 Dec 1915 – A matinee in aid of the Fund for sailors and Dockyard Men at Rosyth at the King’s Theatre. Miss Gertie Ayton appeared in a farcical sketch entitled “Shocks”.
There are a dozen or so results for “Gertrude Ayton” in the Scotsman, all are in the period 1920-1926.
Rex
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Thank you for those links to the blood transfusion history mshrmh. I really enjoyed reading them. I'd seen the crusader one, but not the other two stories & they really flesh out the picture. I didn't know that both father & son (Jack & John) were involved in getting the service up and running, so that's a nice bit on new info to add to my story. Thank you again.
Welcome to RootsChat Tyrannosaurus! We love new people joining us. I hope you find your time here fruitful. I know that I very much appreciate the finds that you've made for Gertrude. It does seem strange that, for someone as active as she was, she proves to be so illusive when it comes to a bio or picture.
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Thanks once again for these links. They are quite fascinating.
I've been searching on FamilySearch, and while I'm no super whiz at it, I can't find any birth record for Gertrude. I'm beginning to wonder if "Gertrude Ayton" was a "stage name".
In order to come at it from another direction, does Edinburgh have obituaries available on-line? I'm thinking that if there is an obit for her husband, it might lead me to know a bit more about her - at least if she was alive or dead at the time he passed.
The husband was: John Robert COPLAND (b.14 Mar 1889-Lerwick,SHI,SCT d.29 Mar 1949-Edinburgh,MLN,SCT)
Thanks to your sleuthing, I now know that they had a son Jack.
Can someone please advise on the availability/sourcing of Edinburgh obits for 1949?
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Hi RedMystic
You might be better off asking that on the Scotland board, putting a link back to here. There will probably be someone on there that knows how to find out.
Jan
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TX Groom. Will do.
I just found him returning from New York on 30 Dec 1927, but dang it all, no wife is with him. ::) ;D
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http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=580299.new
Link to the Modlothian, Scotland page where I've put an inquiry. Please post anything new on that thread.
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According to the data I have from ScotlandsPeople, GRO, etc., Gertrude Margaret Ayton married John Robert (Jack) Copland in 1916, in Gloucester. Jack was born in Lerwick in 1889 and died in Edinburgh in 1949. He was a dentist who started the Scottish blood transfusion service, for which he received the MBE, according to the King's Birthday Honours List of 1945.
I've been looking in vain for information about and photos of Ms Ayton, and would greatly appreciate being notified if anyone finds such, particularly a photo. In the meantime I'll keep looking and will post here if I find anything.
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Welcome to RootsChat lochdubh!
Thanks very much for the look-ups. There goes my theory that she was using a stage name.
Much appreciated. :)
If anyone finds anythings else I'll be ecstatic.
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In order to come at it from another direction, does Edinburgh have obituaries available on-line? I'm thinking that if there is an obit for her husband, it might lead me to know a bit more about her - at least if she was alive or dead at the time he passed.
It seems there may not be a lot online & you may well have to pay if you're not able to visit a relevant institution. The National Library of Scotland has a guide to publications that have an index:
http://www.nls.uk/collections/newspapers/indexes/
The Scotsman has an online archive (to 1950) that is free to search but unless you're a member of an "Athens" institution (some libraries & universities etc ) you'll have to pay to see the actual content:
http://archive.scotsman.com/
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Welcome to RootsChat lochdubh from me too :)
Have you viewed that 1916 marriage to be able to confirm Gertrude's father's name?
Monica
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The 1916 marriage is on GloucestershireBMD as at the Register Office so the certificate would be needed for more info.
http://ww3.gloucestershire.gov.uk/bmd/MarriageSearch.aspx
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According to a copy of the register entry from GRO: On First July, 1916, at the Register Office in Gloucester:
John Robert Copland, 28, Dental practitioner of Gloucester
married
Gertrude Margaret Ayton, 24, Actress of Gloucester
Both fathers are deceased:
Robert Copland, Rubber expert (?)
William Ayton, Translator of foreign languages
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Thanks lochdubh :)
I put on the other new post on the Midlothiand board that RedMystic has already linked on www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,580299.0.html) a possible remarriage for a Gertrude Margaret Copland to a Nanson - this has been misindexed, likely because I think the surname is Hanson (1950, 2nd Qrt in Ealing, Middlesex - Vol. 40, pg. 556) - groom Harry T Hanson. Wondered whether this may be a remarriage.
There is also a death in May 1988 for a Gertrude Margaret Hanson, b. 18 Jul 1891 in Blackpool and Fylde, Lancashire.
Again, wondered whether this was Gertrude. Her age at death/birth year would fit with the age you have at the marriage in 1916.
Monica
Added: Just realised the age at death for this Gertrude...a long life :)
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Closest I can see is this for births:
Gertrude Margaret Ayton, b. 3rd Qrt 1891 in Prestwich, Lancashire (Vol. 8d, pg. 39...or 390 looks to be some confusion as there is a double entry). Census entries I am struggling with so far...
A good thing to check would be JR Copland's 1949's death cert in Edinburgh, not sure if anyone has already looked at this to see what it said about his wife.
Monica
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Hi guys.
Sorry I haven't checked in today. I've been going like a mad fiend for the past 18 hrs so need to go study the inside of my eyelids. ::) :P
It seems that you've had some more finds which I'll check on first thing in the morning. I think I have notes somewhere that father of the groom, Robert Copland, was in the rubber business, but please don't take that as fact until I check into it & get back to you.
I don't have a death date for him (though, admittedly, he hasn't yet been on my list for researching so it's likely easily available). He was born in Lerwick, Shetland in 1862 & married Jessie Inkster (my husband's great aunt) in Apr 1888.
I'm in western Canada so visiting any locations to look up things myself is not likely in the near term. I'll look into what you've found that I can order up online in the morning.
This is shaping up to be a merry chase. Thanks again to one & all who are participating. Your efforts are much appreciated. :) :) :)
PS TX MonicaL for posting the update on the Midlothian, Scotland link. :-*
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The 1891 birth is on LancashireBMD as in the Cheetham sub-district. Prestwich & Cheetham are just north of Manchester, between the city & Bury. The original register for the birth is held at Manchester (you can download a form from the LancsBMD site to order by post or you can order via the GRO (online):
http://www.lancashirebmd.org.uk
I've checked FamilySearch and the Lancashire Online Parish Clerk site & neither appears to have her baptism. I've done a brief check on the 1891 Census for a Robert Ayton in England & Wales with no hits. There are other Aytons in the Prestwich registration district on that census.
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According to a copy of the register entry from GRO: On First July, 1916, at the Register Office in Gloucester:
John Robert Copland, 28, Dental practitioner of Gloucester
married
Gertrude Margaret Ayton, 24, Actress of Gloucester
Both fathers are deceased:
Robert Copland, Rubber expert (?)
William Ayton, Translator of foreign languages
Good morning! TX again for all you did yesterday.
This is what I know about Robert Copland in the event it helps.
On 4th April 1888, in Aberdeen, Jessie Inkster married Robert Copland. Jessie was 27, occupation: dressmaker; Robert was 25, occupation: baker (journeyman). Their witnesses were Lizzie Anderson and Agnes McKay Taylor. By 1911, husband Robert was not recorded in the house. Wife Jessie is listed as married so I presume he died sometime between 1911 & his son's 1916 wedding to Gertrude.
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RedMystic - are you interested in both Gertrude & Jack's ancestors or just one of them or is it "putting meat on the bones" of one or both?
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Hi mshrmh
TX for that question. I am primarily interested in Gertrude, who she was & what happened to her.
The ancestor bit is definitely enlightening (much more entertaining than I anticipated) & may provide some pointers of where to look for and track Gertrude to ensure she's the right person.
I may dig deeper when it comes to the ancestors as my curiosity is now piqued, but for now, it's Gertrude that has me befuddled.
Thank you once again for all your help so far.
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Thanks for answering - I'll have a potter around & see what, if anything, I can find on her prior to the marriage.
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According to a copy of the register entry from GRO: On First July, 1916, at the Register Office in Gloucester:
John Robert Copland, 28, Dental practitioner of Gloucester
married
Gertrude Margaret Ayton, 24, Actress of Gloucester
Both fathers are deceased:
Robert Copland, Rubber expert (?)
William Ayton, Translator of foreign languages
Thank you for this lochdubh.
Are there any hints provided based on who the witnesses were?
Interesting that they married in the Registrar's office & even more interesting to me that John was practising dentistry in Gloucester. I had presumed (I know, once should never do that ::) ;D) that he only practised in Edinburgh.
TX again.
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Thanks lochdubh :)
I put on the other new post on the Midlothiand board that RedMystic has already linked on www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,580299.0.html) a possible remarriage for a Gertrude Margaret Copland to a Nanson - this has been misindexed, likely because I think the surname is Hanson (1950, 2nd Qrt in Ealing, Middlesex - Vol. 40, pg. 556) - groom Harry T Hanson. Wondered whether this may be a remarriage.
There is also a death in May 1988 for a Gertrude Margaret Hanson, b. 18 Jul 1891 in Blackpool and Fylde, Lancashire.
Again, wondered whether this was Gertrude. Her age at death/birth year would fit with the age you have at the marriage in 1916.
Monica
Added: Just realised the age at death for this Gertrude...a long life :)
Thank you for this MonicaL. She was a long lived gal, wasn't she?
Are there any indicators that she had more children with John?
According to family stories, John was an amateur "actor". It's possible that's how they met.
I need to check the marriage date compared to the birth date now that I know about son J (who may still be alive as he was, according to one of the articles on the blood transfusion service, in 2008). Perhaps there's a hint about the timing and nature of Gertrude's first marriage in that timeline.
(My husband's grandfather was in Canada by the time Gertrude & John married and, as far as I know, he never went back to England so it doesn't surprise me that there as so many shades of grey in the family knowledge on this side of the pond.)
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Remember we are making guesses here which would all need to be confirmed in some way (likely via certificates unless connected family is able to help and shine the light here).
Certainly seems likely that we do have potentially the correct details for Gertrude but we are missing likely some key facts still. One thing that might help is for you to check the death cert of JR Copland from 1949 as this might give some clues regarding his wife.
The death notice in the Scotsman on 30 March 1949 certainly made no reference to his wife, only his son.
Monica
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I couldn't find a William Ayton on the 1891 for England & Wales who looked as though he'd be described as a translator. The census was 5 April, so just before the date given for Gertrude's birth on the death registration, assuming that is her & the date was accurate.
Clutching at straws: on the Historical Directories site the 1895 Slaters for Manchester & Salford records a Jonas Ayton at 49 Perth Street, Cheetham. He was a compositor. At the same address on the 1891 census is James Ayton with his wife - he's born Scotland. I suspect this is really Jonas, as LancashireBMD has a marriage in 1888 at Salford that matches the couple. Jonas's baptism could be the one on FamilySearch in 1864 Edinburgh - parents William Ayton & Margaret Taylor. The same site records the baptisms of other children to the same couple - William Taylor (1865), Nimmo Crawford, Christina, James & William (1874).
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Hi Monica & mshrmh,
I agree I'm going to need to do some follow-up to get the requisite certificates to prove any of this out.
Compositor is an interesting occupation. Do you interpret that to be a typesetter?
mshrmh, TX for the additional family info for Gertrude.
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Compositor is an interesting occupation. Do you interpret that to be a typesetter?
Looks like it - according to Google "Compositor: One that sets written material into type; a typesetter."
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There have been sooooooo many great finds on this thread, a few personal messages with more wonderful information, & a few irons still in the fire which (fingers crossed ;)) may bring a bit more yet.
Chatters are the most AMAZING, resourceful people! I couldn't have made it this far without you. Here's some fancy chocolate, a token of my appreciation. :-* Thank you again.
Have a wonderful day!
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It looks like they were both in the same theatre company.
This link will take you to a 500 page pdf document titled “Edinburgh’s Theatres, Cinemas and Circuses, 1820-1963”. On page 278 there’s a story about the Bohemians Amateur Lyric Opera Company. On 23 February, 1914, they presented the Opera “Paul Jones” at the Theatre Royal. According to a former member, among the Paul Jones cast was Mrs Jack Copland as Yvonne, and Jack Copland as Petit Pierre. http://www.scottishcinemas.org.uk/etcc/ETCC.0.Complete.pdf
A review appeared in the Scotsman on 24 February. The part of Yvonne was attributed to Miss Gertrude Ayton and the part of Petit Pierre to Mr. R. J. Copland.
Rex
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Wonder why Gertrude was showing as Mrs Jack Copland in early 1914....her and Jack didn't marry until 1916 from what has been confirmed so far.
Monica
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First sighting of Gertrude I think on a census. There is a 19 year old Gertrude Ayton on the 1911 census in Edinburgh. You might be lucky and it shows a more detailed place of birth for her rather than just 'England'.
Monica
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You guys are wonderful. TX for keeping the search going.
Interesting 1914 date & name used for Gertrude. ::)
I'm heading out the door so will take a more careful look when I'm back home - likely not until early tomorrow morning UK time before I check back in. (Sorry.) ::) ;D
I'll be anxiously awaiting today's finds until then. Thanks again. :)
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Don't be late to where you are going RedMystic - this can all wait ;D
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Wonder why Gertrude was showing as Mrs Jack Copland in early 1914....her and Jack didn't marry until 1916 from what has been confirmed so far.
Monica
I wondered - the piece in the PDF was perhaps written much later, so the person knew her as Mrs Jack Copland & had forgotten this was before her marriage/or had fogotten her maiden name?
RedMystic- those chocs look good ;D
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The 1914 mention of a Mrs Jack Copland is odd isn't. Rex mentioned earlier that the details showing on the pdf also show in more detail in the Scotsman in Feb. 1914.
Monica
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Think we are making some headway on who Gertrude was. Made me chuckle, mshrmh, that it brought me full circle to your post here:
I couldn't find a William Ayton on the 1891 for England & Wales who looked as though he'd be described as a translator. The census was 5 April, so just before the date given for Gertrude's birth on the death registration, assuming that is her & the date was accurate.
Clutching at straws: on the Historical Directories site the 1895 Slaters for Manchester & Salford records a Jonas Ayton at 49 Perth Street, Cheetham. He was a compositor. At the same address on the 1891 census is James Ayton with his wife - he's born Scotland. I suspect this is really Jonas, as LancashireBMD has a marriage in 1888 at Salford that matches the couple. Jonas's baptism could be the one on FamilySearch in 1864 Edinburgh - parents William Ayton & Margaret Taylor. The same site records the baptisms of other children to the same couple - William Taylor (1865), Nimmo Crawford, Christina, James & William (1874).
Coming at this in a different way, in summary, I think that William Ayton and Margaret Taylor that you mention were indeed Gertrude's grandparents. However, parent not James I think but eldest daughter Christina b. 1868 in Edinburgh. Can't see her easily in 1891 but everything points to her marrying a William Jacob in Liverpool in 1892 (explains why daughter Gertrude Margaret was registered under Ayton).
I think this is the family back in Edinburgh with young Gertrude for 1901:
William Ayton 63, Printer's Rader (printer’s reader….could translator of foreign languages be a polite version of the same thing?) b. Edinburgh
Margaret Taylor 58 b. Keith, Banff
Robert Ayton 24
Margaret Ayton 21
George Ayton 20
Annie Ayton 18
Gertrude Jacobs 9 – granddaughter b. England
Address: 48 Rosemount Bdgs, Edinburgh
From playing around with the index on Scotlands People for 1911, Gertrude showing now as Ayton looks to be still living with her grandparents.
I think this is her mother and (father?) William Jacobs down in Hackney, London for 1901 (RG13/225/74/3):
William Jacob 45 [struggle with his occupation?] b. Newcastle
Christina Jacob 33 wife b. Edinburgh
I think from what we have so far, Gertrude reverted to Ayton in later years. Also, I think to cover the fact she was illegitimate, she likely gave her grandfather William Ayton's details as those of her father on her 1916 marriage registration.
...And then I am stuck again ;D
Monica
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Thanks once again MonicaL.
I've posted a message on the Lancashire Lookup Request board expressly to see if anyone can locate an 1988 obituary for Gertrude in a regional paper in the Blackpool area.
The link to that page is:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=581082.new#new
A photo of Gertrude is still my Holy Grail (in my imagination she has become a stunning, statuesque beauty ::) ;D), but an obit is the next best thing.
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Monica - that's brilliant! Here's the occupation:
I reckon it's translator which ties in nicely with the occupation she gave for her father on the marriage.
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Adding - the 1892 marriage is on LancashireBMD as Liverpool Register Office/Registrar Attended, ie either a civil wedding or non-conformist/RC. It's not on either FamilySearch or the LancsOPC site so likely you'd need to purchase the certificate to confirm the details.
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5:30AM here & Gertrude is calling my name so I'm & at my computer. ::) ;D
Great eyes determining the "translator" occupation in the 1911 census mshrmh.
I started compiling a list of certificates that I need when I was working on summarizing this yesterday & will add Christina's 1892 marriage.
Stay warm over there. I hear it's -10 today; (would that be C or F?)
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RedMystic - as they say, no rush these people aren't going anywhere! When you get the certificates an update would be appreciated - I hope they all work out to be "right" and no red herrings among them.
Here, a few miles south of Manchester it was just above freezing (0.3°C) at midday according to the MetOffice's website. At the moment we seem to be escaping the worst that some other parts of the UK are getting (I hope that wasn't famous last words)!
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Coming at this in a different way, in summary, I think that William Ayton and Margaret Taylor that you mention were indeed Gertrude's grandparents. However, parent not James I think but eldest daughter Christina b. 1868 in Edinburgh. Can't see her easily in 1891 but everything points to her marrying a William Jacob in Liverpool in 1892 (explains why daughter Gertrude Margaret was registered under Ayton).
Monica
Maybe I've found 1891 Christina. Do you think she could be mistranscribed as Christina Aiton?
- b1868 in Edinburgh
- border at home of John Kirkland 123 John Street, Glasgow, Lanarkshire
- occupation sales woman
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That would fit for her wouldn't it. If she was in Scotland for the 1891 census (5 April), wonder whether she was sent down to her brother James to have the baby? Birth date for Gertrude possibly 18 July 1891 if we are following the right trail...
mshrmh, inspired on the 'translator' for possible occupation! I am rubbish at these what do they say questions ;D Haven't found William Jacobs elsewhere so far to re-confirm his occupation.
Monica
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That would fit for her wouldn't it. If she was in Scotland for the 1891 census (5 April), wonder whether she was sent down to her brother James to have the baby? Birth date for Gertrude possibly 18 July 1891 if we are following the right trail...
Monica
William Jacob appears to have been born Newcastle Upon Tyne, North Umberland. In 1881 he was at 30 Malvern Rd, St John Hackney, London, occupation: commercial Clerk Foils. (Does anyone have any idea what that is?)
1901 he is at 206 Richmond Road, Hackney, London.
1918 he dies in Greenwich, Greater London.
Christina's elder brother, Jonas, appears to have died in Blackpool. Perhaps there was more family there & that was why Gertrude ended up there? ???
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Trying to push forward on that final mission of an image of Gertrude...not sure how but looking around!
Have to post this from the brlliant National Library of Scotland site, the Scottish Screen Archive. This film is from the Edinburgh Theatre Royal from 1937, sure Gertrude would have stomped the floor here at some point in her career. Gives a good feel for the period :)
http://ssa.nls.uk/film.cfm?fid=2181&search_term=theatre&search_fields=0&search_join_type=AND&search_fuzzy=yes
Also as an aside on the 'image of Gertrude' mission, I spoke to the very helpful librarian yesterday at Glasgow University's Scottish Theatre Archive, that both mshrmh and nanny jan have mentioned previously. Unfortunately, the 25 or so records mentioned on their site for Gertrude relate solely to press cuttings (promoting the shows which for this period unlike to show photos) and show programmes. They do not hold any particular info on Gertrude in their archives.
The ever helpful librarian suggested perhaps checking with Equity, the actors' union who might be another place to try. They started I think circa the early 1930s. Not sure what they may hold...
Monica
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Thanks Monica. I will get an e-mail off to Equity right away.
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Thanks again to all who have helped with Gertrude along the way. :-*
I've order Gertrude's birth certificate though Ancestry. I clicked the electronic copy option, but it appears in my confirmation that it will come by snail mail - anticipated arrival Mar 21. Arrgggggggg! That's forever!!!!! :o ;D And the cost! :o
I also sent off an e-mail to Equity - nice little website they have. :)
So now it's a waiting game - & we red heads are not known for patience. ::) ;D ;D ;D I will report back when the fog clears.
In the meantime, I agree that it looks quite likely that Christina is Gertrude's mum.
It has occurred to me that Gertrude's birth record appears in the name Ayton while Gertrude in the 1901 census is recorded as "Gertrude Jacob". I wonder if the Jacob surname was a "cover" created after Christina married William Jacob a year after Gertrude's birth.
That may explain why Gertrude never went to London with her parents, instead staying with her grandparents. ??? The other reason that this popped into my mind is that William Jacob appears to have been from London, so I don't see how he & Christine would have met in the north.
That is, of course, unless that occupation occupation of Commercial Clerk Foils ??? took him on the road. (By 1901 he was a Translator of course, so if the occupations were something similar it's not out of the question.)
Waiting 5 weeks for arrival of the certificate is going to be painful!
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And the cost!
Hi RM
I know it is too late now, but you are much better off ordering certificates directly from the General Register Office as it is cheaper and quicker.
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
Jan
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TX Jan. Monica let me know too.
:-[ I was quite embarrassed that I'd used SP with success but had no idea how to order an English record. I found the link you provided & then couldn't figure out how one would do the search. ::) I know ... just call me a techno peasant. ;) ;D
I found a tree on *A* for Christina & William. There are lots of back-up pieces (census & such) including the 1901 census where Gertrude shows as grandaughter. There is, however, no mention of Gertrude. I've sent them a message. My fingers are crossed that they respond & know something that they haven't put in the tree.
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TX Jan. Monica let me know too.
:-[ I was quite embarrassed that I'd used SP with success but had no idea how to order an English record. I found the link you provided & then couldn't figure out how one would do the search. ::) I know ... just call me a techno peasant. ;) ;D
You need to do the search first either on Ancestry or Freebmd http://www.freebmd.org.uk and then use that information when you order from the GRO.
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TX Jan. I'm going to be sooooo expert in England research by the time I'm done with this one. ::) ;) ;D
BTW Gertrude's possible father: William Jacob's 1881 occupation: Commercial Clerk Foil had me casting about trying to figure out what he was doing. In 1891 his occupation was: Commercial Clerk Oil. I'm not sure what kind of oil, but the occupation certainly makes more sense now.
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RM, glad to see things are progressing. If you need help next time you want to order an English cert, shout & someone will "talk you through it". (I've never need a Scottish one & would have to start from scratch if I did).
Oil/foil - another of those quirks from an enumerator like James/Jonas that are sent to try us. I've a few that have had me scratching my head, often when they stray "off the beaten path" of the occupations my families most went in for.
The trade directories may help sort out the occupation if he stayed in one place long enough to be listed. The Historical Directories site has a number (free).
http://www.historicaldirectories.org/hd/
If you're new to that site it isn't the easiest to search - the Technical FAQs on how to search for a name may help.... In some areas it can be easier to open up a directory and browse where you already know an address.
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I’m not sure if this has been mentioned somewhere before.
In The Scotsman, 02 April, 1915, there’s an article about a dispute over furniture between an Edinburgh landlord and a soldier. The soldier was John Robert Copland, dentist, of 176 Morrison Street. It contained information that Mr Copland had joined the Royal Scots. The Soldiers’ and Sailors’ Families Association was assisting Mr Copland with the case and his mother had offered to help repay overdue rent.
If the soldiers records were among the minority that survived WW2 bombing perhaps they may contain something useful.
The Scotsman, 27 June, 1912.
Entertainment at the Lauriston Hall in aid of the Children’s Holiday Fund included a play “Ici on Parle Francais”. Gertrude Aytoun [sic] and John R Copland were among the players.
The Scotsman, 26 February, 1930.
Mr J. R. Copland was producer of a number of one act plays presented in the Lecture Hall of the Central Halls by members of the dramatic section of the Edinburgh Women’s Athletic Club. No sign of Gertrude.
Rex
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mshrmh, thank you very much for the direction on the certificates. I had sent a PM to Monica before I ordered the one I did, but was so excited (wanted instant gratification ::) ;D) that I didn't wait for her direction :-[. I've learned sooooo much on this exploration that I can put to use on my other English branches. Wonderful! :)
I'll take a look at the occupations website & save it for future reference. I love knowing about those types of things when it comes to my folk. (AND as a retired human resources guy, my husband has an intrest in that facet too, so it's one of those family history topics I can chat with him about without him glazing over. ;) ;D)
Thank you Ty, for these extra stories. I don't recall the story about the overdue rent & the military. That is a great bit of missing information. I will be tracking down what I can about the WWI military records.
Hmmmmm that will be a new one for me. I've had a wee bit of experience with WWI Canadian records & WWII UK records, but any pointers on how to start would be great. If memory serves, there is a website that names those that signed up for the UK in WWI. Is that correct?
John's WWI military service isn't noted in his obituary; just an awful accident that he sufferred during WWII while in Aberdeen. It resulted in a surgery and amputation. :( His invaluable role in extending the blood service organization to suit the heavy needs during WWII is highlighted; no mention of wife Gertrude though. :P
I've started compiling a list of all the reviews for Gertrude, and I love it even more when they coincide with performances, direction &/or funding by John. It appears that John continued to arrange drama performance fund raisers for the blood service until right up close to the time of his death.
You have been extra-ordinarily helpful to me on this quest. I think, by way of this thread, you've also been helping another person as I see that someone is having a lot of fun populating many of the details in an *A* tree. I've sent them a message to see how they're connected - no response as yet - but isn't it great to know that someone else is benefitting too? :)
RootsChat is a wonderful community! Thank you again.
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RM - Ancestry (at least the .co.uk) version has what WW1 records there are - as Rex notes a fire in WW2 destroyed a lot so IIRC around 40% survive. The usual place to start is the "medal cards" (also on Ancestry)as most people who served were entitled to some medal (campaign/service type) - from Rex's post we know he served in the Royal Scots at some point so if the name's not unique that should help - after that you can try to find service/pension records that tie up. The service records have attestation papers similar (may be identical) to the Canadian ones so if you're lucky & find his records you'll recognise the format.
Good hunting!
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This is hopefully a link to 'The Stage' archives mentions for Gertrude www.rootschat.com/links/0k7b/ (pay to view as it is for these things). You can buy a 24 hour pass at £5GB. The main link is here https://archive.thestage.co.uk
Added: Link with the listings for Gertrude on the Stage is not working. Just click on the main link/advanced search for "gertrude ayton"
Monica :)
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TX mshrmh. I'd love to find his attestation papers. I've done a quick look - no joy so far - but will come back to it later today.
TX Monica. I'll have a look. My fingers are also crossed that the actors union gets back to me this week.
Cheers,
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So here is another mystery about Gertrude. I've been trying to narrow down the timeline they became estranged. It seems husband, John, took a trip to the USA in 1927. What do you make of this?
On 5th Nov 1927 he boarded the SS Cedric, of the White Star line, at
Liverpool bound for New York.
He was 38 years old, occupation Dentist, travelled cabin class. He
gave his last address in the UK as 22 Gilmore Place, Edinburgh .
(see US05Nov1927.jpg source: Passenger lists leaving UK 1890 - 1960
via FInd My Past)
The Cedric arrived in New York on 14th November 1927
John Robert Copland was recorded twice on the arrivals listing!, lines
10 and 18, though there is a note at the bottom to say so and line 18
has been crossed out.
The 'relation in the UK' column. Line 10 says Mrs G Copland, 22 Gilmore Place . Oh goody, I thought, as that narrows down the date that John and Gertrude wife parted company.
Then at line 18 - 'relation in the UK' says Jessie Copland, which was his mother.
??? ::) Does anyone have any theories about what might be going on here?
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It may be a case of how the information was acquired - eg if someone said who is next of kin he could answer his wife, but if he was asked who is the family contact in case of.... then, if they had separated (legally or informally), he could answer his mother. As to why it was filled in twice - could be pure human error, perhaps he thought better of the first answer & asked for a change & the person taking the info then consulted a senior person & went with their ruling - could speculate for a long time.
It is suggestive of marital problems, unless he was the sort of person who'd given his mother as NOK so many times in the past it had become unthinking....
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If there was only one child, born early in the marriage, and not the usual number for the time, that maybe suggests an early separation.
Gertrude seems to have been long forgotten by 1941 when the son married.
The Scotsman, 01 April, 1941.
COPLAND—RUNCIMAN. —At Barony and St James Place Church, Edinburgh, on 29th March, 1941, by the Rev. John E. McIntyre, John A. G. Copland, son of Mr J. R. Copland, 22 Gilmore Place, Edinburgh, to Joy Runciman, daughter of Mr. and Mrs. George Runciman, 23 York Place.
Jessie’s death notice reveals nothing.
The Scotsman, 21 March, 1944.
COPLAND.—At 22 Gilmore Place, Edinburgh, on 19th March, 1944, Jessie Inkster, aged 84, wife of the late Robert Copland. Funeral (private) to Dalry Cemetery on Wednesday, 22nd March. Friends meet cortege cemetery gate, 3 p.m.
Rex
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Many thanks Ty. :) :)
I think I have the engagement announcement for Jack, but not the wedding one. Brilliant!
As for Jessie, that's a wonderful find as well! I've discovered that her husband Robert ran off to Canada in 1907 never to return. ::) To make matters even stranger, another of Jessie's son's took off for Kenya in the late 1920s (where he died in 1938) & one of Jessie's daughter's had a husband who took off to Canada in the 1920s & died there in the 1950s.
It seems that the family wasn't very good at marriage. ;) ;D
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Hi experts. This is the response I got from the local library re Gertrude's obit request. Will the register entry they reference give me anything more than date of death? Would there be any benefit to ordering this for £11?
This office is only able to supply you with a copy of the register entry for Gertrude Hanson. If you wish to apply for this you can do so online at www.blackpool.gov.uk following the pay for it instructions. The fee is £11. With regard to any obituary I can only suggest you try any local newspapers to see if they keep any records going back to that time. Our local newspaper is the Blackpool Gazette.
Back to the drawing board with the obit search. No response as yet from the actors union.
Happy Friday
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Not exactly helpful, I think, that response. ???
The death certificate, which I'm assuming is what they're referring to, would give you date & place of death, its cause, and as a female her status (wife of/widow of + I think his occupation).
The library does have some of the local papers according to their PDF listing:
http://www.blackpool.gov.uk/Services/A-F/BlackpoolLibraries/FamilyandLocalHistory.htm
As they're mentioning the Blackpool Gazette, perhaps you could try them direct. Areas differ around the UK with what local papers carry, but full obituaries as I've seen in Canadian ones are a rarity. You may find an "announcement" of the death with details of where & when the funeral would take place. In some areas there is still a tradition of funeral reports which may give a line or two about the deceased and then concentrate on a list of mourners (handy for picking up family).
http://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/
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Thank you mshrmh.
I appreciate the link to the Blackpool newspaper. They don't seem to have a General Inquiry e-mail address, but hopefully the person who receives my inquiry will forward it appropriately. Fingers crossed.
TX again.
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My genealogy wish list....I know it is not Xmas, but who knows ;D
I would love to confirm that the 1950 marriage we suspect is her remarriage is the correct one...
I would like to confirm that the Harry Hanson (a comedian) we have seen on play/musical billings through the 1920s, having joint billings with Gertrude, is the Harry T Hanson she married in 1950, the year after Jack's death in Edinburgh...
I would like to confirm whether the Harry Hanson who was a local/regional theatre empressario in the 1940/50s (harry hanson's court players) has any connection at all...even though he was also known as the Duchess of Warlingham...
And...just for you (and us), we want to find a photo of Gertrude who I am guessing was gorgeous!
Monica ;)
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;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
My wish exactly Monica, with one addition: that I confirm her mother & father. At least that answer should come with the certificate that is "in the mail".
Thanks to you and others who have helped along the way.
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Monica - I'll second the wish list.
RM - a tip that may help if you're getting into more general UK research for wider family is to use a UK search engine. There's a ".co.uk" version of Google & one of the options is to restrict search results to those from the UK. I've used the equivalent for Canada & South Africa & had some luck (photos of graves in both countries, for example) on the more extended branches of OH & my families. It amazes me sometimes what is out there (and what isn't).
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That sounds like a great suggestions mshrmh. I'll give it a try. Thank you very much!
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Hi to all who are following Gertrude.
I don't have much new of consequence, but MonicaL forwarded an Apr 1927 ad that promoted Gertrude & what may have become Gertrude's second husband, Harry Hansen. It specified that Gertrude was a Top C Soprano. Not familiar with that, I asked Mr. Google to help.
It appears that a Top C Soprano may also be referred to as "coloratura", which, when used without further qualification, normally means soprano coloratura.
A coloratura soprano role, most famously typified by the Queen of the Night in Mozart's The Magic Flute, has a high range and requires the singer to execute with great facility elaborate ornamentation and embellishment, including running passages, staccati, and trills. A coloratura soprano has the vocal ability to produce notes above high C (C6) and possesses a tessitura ranging from A4 to A5 or higher (unlike lower sopranos whose tessitura is G4–G5 or lower).
That's my wee find for tonight.
mshrmh, I seriously thinking of order that certificate the library suggested for Gertrude. If you're correct & it includes wife of/widow of + his occupation it may tell me which Harry Hanson she married. (It appears that the theatre Harry died in London in 1972; obit generously provided by Monica.)
I will let you know as other bits unfold.
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Oh, one other tiny fact. I've discovered that Gertrude & Jack's son was officially named John Ayton Gordon Copland. By the time of his marriage announcement in 1941 he had dropped the name Ayton, so it is likely that the family estrangement we surmise occurred happened before then.
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mshrmh, I seriously thinking of order that certificate the library suggested for Gertrude. If you're correct & it includes wife of/widow of + his occupation it may tell me which Harry Hanson she married. (It appears that the theatre Harry died in London in 1972; obit generously provided by Monica.)
I will let you know as other bits unfold.
Thanks for the update on your new find - she must have been a talented person.
I've checked the death certificates I have for females & they do all state wife or widow of.... (it was under occupation). There's a useful online guide to what you can expect from certificates in England & Wales (upto around 1970), compiled by a former registrar:
http://home.clara.net/dixons/Certificates/indexbd.htm
If you do go for the death certificate the base price is £9 from the local register office with possible extras for card payment & postage; from the GRO it's £9.25 including postage (I think that's the same for sending outside the UK, but am not sure). Both versions contain the same information - the local office holds the originals & some supply copies that are a type of photocopy so you can see original signatures. The GRO copies are literally that - compiled from copies submitted by the local office. More recent events differ as computers have changed things inevitably.
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Hi all.
Here's a quick update.
The first certificate has arrived. Gertrude was definitely daughter of Christina - no father mentioned. That means that the 1901 census where she is living with her grandfather but shows up with Christina's husband's surname is a slight, though perhaps understandable, deviation from the truth. ::) (Christina & new husband are living in London in 1901.)
Her first marriage certificate to Jack indicates her grandfather (Christina's father) as Gertrude's "father".
I know. ::) It's nothing that answers any of the wishes we made a few days ago, but it does prove out that all of you put me on the right track. Thank you. :)
The search continues. :P
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Good to have the first connections all confirmed, RM.
Spotted the death in Blackpool & Fylde in 1977 for a 73 yr old Harry Hanson and wondered whether this was 'the' Harry Hanson we have been looking for given we have Gertrude's death there in 1988.
Monica
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Thanks RM - seems like so many she was "economical with the truth" when she got married, understandable at the time if misleading to later researchers.
IIRC somewhere on this thread there was a comment or question about why Blackpool. As RM's in Canada - there is a tradition in the UK of retiring to the seaside (healthy ozone or similar ideas). For people in the north-west of England this has often been to North Wales (Colwyn Bay, Rhyl etc) or to Southport or further north to the area around Blackpool - Lytham St Annes, Cleveleys etc outside the main holiday resort itself. I'm not sure what geographic area the registration district of Blackpool & Fylde covered, but may well include these areas.
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I suppose also Gertrude will have been familiar with the general Blackpool town area given, you would think, she would have worked there many a time in its many theatres and halls. Coupled with her maternal Uncle James and his extended family being there too.
Lively entertaining area for her to retire to also!
Monica
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I've not been able to do too much on this (other than receive the certificate) this week. I'm on the road until Friday. Frustrating when life gets in the way of FH research. ::) ;D
Monica, great find on the other Harry Hansen - likely much more of a candidate for Gertrude than the one that died in London. When I get home I'll see if I can do some tracking on him. Did the death record you found for the "other Harry" 1977, by chance, indicate where he was born?
Another "stupid" question. Can one obtain a marriage record for a 1950 wedding?
mshrmh, TX for the lay of the land & the "retiring to the seaside" explanation.
I did find that Gertrude's uncle died in Blackpool, though that would have been quite a while before Gertrude moved there. (I don't have my notes with me at the hotel.) I'll do some checking to see if he had children as that may have been an attraction for her.
Gertrude had a half brother as well. Christina Ayton and William Jacob had a son in London: Ayton Jacob. I've not followed that branch; perhaps it might lead somewhere.
I've not heard anything from the actor's union other than to confirm that they got the request & would get to me shortly. My fingers are crossed that the request is sitting in someone's To-Do pile.
Cheers,
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Hi all.
I found a tree that included Gertrude's mum, husband, their son (he's dead), his wife (if she's alive she's 100 yrs old) & children ..... Finally a lead ... I thought. ;)
I wrote to the owner yesterday morning asking them if they knew anything about Christina's daughter, Gertrude. I explained the birth certificate & 1901 census. They responded that they weren't aware of Christina having another child before she married (BTW she died June 1948 in Milford, Ireland according to that tree).
This morning, when I had a bit more time, I went back to check that tree. I know the 1901 census was attached to Christina's father's record yesterday, but this morning it is deleted. :-\
So .... the clue ran cold very quickly. :'(
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RM - shame for you - sounds as though perhaps either they didn't realise the tree was accessible, or perhaps they were upset be the illegitimacy - you never know how people will take things.
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I'm new to this, but I'm of the Christina/Ayton Jacob line, here in the US. I'll provide any information I can. I have a lot of research on Christina's family, as well as the William Jacob family too.
Josh
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Josh - welcome to RootsChat.
You may want to exchange information with RedMystic off the public messageboard part of the site - if so you can do it via the personal message system (PMs), but you need to have a couple more posts to your name before you can access this. Brief comments on this thread will count ;)
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Hi Josh
Big welcome to RC from me too :D RM will be over the moon having worked so hard at trying to figure out this line and the connections :)
Monica
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Good morning Josh!
Welcome to RootsChat & thank you very much for getting in touch. :) :)
It's wonderful to hear from you & tremendous to know that you've researched Christina's family. Do you know much about Gertrude? ???
As mshrmh indicated, you need to post 2 more times (3 x in total) on the RootsChat board before you & I can use personal mesaging. (That's when you click on the little green scroll under an avatar's photo on the left of the page & it enables you to connect out of the public eye.)
It's OK to post info on Gertrude here as well if you're comfortable with that. I'm excited to learn about her however you're comfortable sharing! 8)
You have made my day. ;) I'll be on pins & needles until I hear from you again. :) :) :)
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Okay, I'll post a few times.
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I do not know about Gertrude--this is the first I have heard about her. I go to the University of Georgia, so we have access to the entire Ancestry website. If there's information about people that you want, I will gladly help. I've been researching the family tree for quite some time. The Jacob line has been elusive. If anyone knows the link between this line of Jacobs (plural of "Jacob," not "Jacobs") to Naomi Jacob (English author), please let me know. I know there is a connection. Naomi Jacob and my great-grandmother Doris Jacob, were very good friends. I'm thinking they must have been second or third cousins. I don't know where the Jacob line comes from, but I have extensive research from Christina's family in Scotland.
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It is with sincere apologies that I make this request.
Today, I accidentally deleted all of my personal messages. :'( Some of them included info regarding Gertrude that I hadn't transferred to my permanent files. If you sent something to me and still have the message in you outbox, could you PLEASE resend it?
Your assistance would be most appreciated & again, I apologize for the inconvenience.
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:'( What a pain for you...no way back from there unfortunately. Once you have deleted, they are a 100% gone unfortunately.
I have sent you copies of PMs. Other emails you should have (keep your fingers still around the keyboard ;))
Monica :)
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Hi
Gertrude Ayton was my grandmother. She was indeed an actress and was married to the Edinburgh dentist who started the Blood Transfusion Service in Scotland around 1930. His name, however, was John Robert Copland – always known as ‘Jack’. Gertrude left Jack sometime around 1920 to follow a career on the stage – she later married Harry Hanson and latterly they lived in Blackpool. I have many pictures of her. She was a true theatrical person and great fun to be with.
Best wishes
HC
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HC, I am shocked that you have come across this post - how amazing! Welcome to RootsChat :) Your name came up in some searches already off line from here and RM and I discussed how we could possibly get in touch with you....and here you are!
I think from other info, RM was going away for a couple of weeks (think not due back from somewhere lovely in Canada until first week of April). Blown away undoubtedly RM will be (as I am) ;D
Monica
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Good morning - or I should say GREAT morning! :)
It is fabulous to hear from you Howard. Welcome to RootsChat.
As Monica indicated, we knew you existed but didn't know how to make contact. Your Gertrude has provided quite a lot of fun.
(BTW: Since first posting this inquiry, I've come across a few "cousins" who are also doing family history research & interested in knowing more about your branch. We're a far flung bunch: western Canada, eastern Canada, Glasgow, the southern USA, and Israel. ;))
You need to post on RootsChat 2 more times before you and I can send personal messages to one another. If you're comfortable with it, perhaps you can shed some light on Gertrude.
From your comment about her being great fun, it sounds like you had a relationship with her. It might be silly but it makes me happy to know that, while the family came apart, she retained contact with her grandchildren.
Josh, who posted on this thread 4 or 5 posts ago, is aware of what appears to be Gertrude's 1/2 brother (Ayton Jacob), but there seems to have been no knowledge of Gertrude in that side of the family. I've run across that development in another on-line tree as well. Was she estranged from her birth family?
I'd love to hear more about her; performance reviews abound, but no biography or obituary have appeared. I have an imaginary picture of her in my head & would love to know how it compares to reality. (The cousin in eastern Canada has a 1914 picture of Jack in a family grouping of some sort; (I've not seen it). There is an unlabelled woman in it that he thinks may be Gertrude, but I question (based on her young age) whether they would have been an item at that point.)
And while it doesn't directly connect to your relationship to Gertrude, the curiosity is getting to me. ::) ;D Can you tell us please, which Harry Hansen she married in 1950? We found two - one the actor & the other, a fellow almost 20 years her junior who died in Blackpool.
Thanks again for getting in touch. You've made my day.
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RedM told me of this thread which I have read with great interest .... I tried to find her info about the son who went to Eldoret, in Kenya !
PLEASE we are all agog waiting for a photo of the mysterious Gertrude !
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RedM told me of this thread which I have read with great interest .... I tried to find her info about the son who went to Eldoret, in Kenya !
PLEASE we are all agog waiting for a photo of the mysterious Gertrude !
Hi Lydart, the fellow you generously looked up for me when you were in Eldoret last month was Gertrude's b-i-l. It's a fascinating & well travelled branch of the family - a wee bit hard to follow at times though. ;) ;D
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Hello Red Mystic
I first met Gertrude somewhere around 1960 when I was about 12. Before then I was unaware of her existence as there had been no contact with our family for a very long time. After that we all kept in touch regularly – Gertie and Harry would come and stay sometimes and we would visit them in Blackpool sometimes. Harry was also an actor – I remember him sitting with a typewriter in the backroom of their house in Blackpool working on one of his plays. They both had very sharp minds, probably as a result of working in ‘rep’ for so long. When younger they would travel round the country by rail, staying in boarding houses. They would spend their evenings performing one play, their afternoons rehearsing the next play and their mornings learning the lines of a third play – quite a challenge.
Last year my father (Gertrude’s son) died (born 23 Sept 1917 in Gloucester). She had left Edinburgh when he was still very young, but as a boy he was sometimes sent off to Blackpool for his holidays. On one occasion (in the 1920s) he was actually given a part in one of the plays that was being performed. I think the part was ‘Little Willie’ in a play called ‘East Lynne.’ Although he was just a boy he was old enough to appreciate being clasped to the breast of the beautiful leading lady every night as she declaimed the famous line, “Gone, gone, and never called me mother!”
I will have to do a bit of digging around amongst old photos and see what I can find.
H.C.
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Hi Howard,
It's wonderful to hear from you again.
Thanks for sharing your memories. Please accept my condolences on the loss of your father. Monica found some pictures of him from a few years ago when he attended the ceremony honouring your grandfather's role in starting the Scottish blood service. He looked like a wonderful, cheerful fellow. (I thought I could see some of the Inkster in him too. ;))
When your grandfather sailed to New York in 1927, Gertrude was named as one of his next of kin, at the same address as his other next of kin, your grandfather's mother Jessie. (Your grandfather was entered in the manifest 2x, with different contacts on each entry.)
Interestingly, the info on actor Harry Hansen who died in London (in 1972 if memory serves but I'd need to check back in my records) didn't mention a marriage. Do you know if her 2nd husband died in Blackpool or London?
Thanks again for adding to the story of Gertrude.
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Hi Howard and RM
Regarding Harry Hanson, we have two likely fellows that RM and I were looking at. One was in rep theater around the same time as Gertrude and then became an empresario with his own company - Harry Hanson's Court Players - http://boards.ancestry.co.uk/topics.occupations.theater/42.3.1/mb.ashx
However, I contacted the effervescent Pearl who showed in that string of posts linked above (also www.lonelysolutions.blogspot.co.uk) and her memory of that Harry Hanson was that he was known as the Duchess of Warlingham....which sort of stopped us in our tracks a bit.
We have these possible dates for Gertrude:
Remarriage: 1950, 2nd Qrt in Ealing, Middlesex - Vol. 40, pg. 556 to Harry T. Hanson
Death entry: May 1988 in Blackpool (b. b. 18 Jul 1891)
As RM mentions, we found a possible death in Blackpool for a Harry Hanson in 1977 (born in 1903) and wondered whether this was Gertrude's husband (the theatre empresario died in London in 1972 - born c. 1895).
There are a number of joint theatre billings for Gertrude and HH through the 1920s where HH shows in the main as a comedian.
Monica :)
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Hello all
This morning I spent a bit of time looking through some bags of old family photos – (I have a lot of work to do on this). Amongst them was a brown envelope containing various pictures and notes which Gertrude sent to my father and mother in 1979, some of them will probably be of interest to you (includes a picture of Ayton Castle). Another (wartime) picture of Gertrude has written on the back, “God bless you & keep you both safe. From Mummy on my 50th birthday.” And has the date 15/7/41 – presumably sent to the Copland family. She lived well into her 90s, so May 1988 sounds about right. Unfortunately I don’t know when Gertrude married Harry Hanson – I wish I had asked more questions when I had the chance – but it may be relevant that my grandfather Jack Copland died in March 1949.
This afternoon I have been involved in another Ayton connection. My elderly relative Isabel is not too well at the moment and I was taking her some supplies. Her mother was called Wilhelmina Margaret Johnston Taylor Ayton – known as ‘Mena’ – and her grandmother was Isabella Taylor Ayton. Unfortunately none of us is too clear about the exact relationship to Gertrude.
H.C.
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Hi H.C.
From the names you mention:
Her mother was called Wilhelmina Margaret Johnston Taylor Ayton – known as ‘Mena’ ....
you would think there is certainly some connection to Gertrude's family with the Ayton and (Margaret) Taylor surnames.
I think this is the family back in Edinburgh with young Gertrude for 1901:
William Ayton 63, Printer's Rader (printer’s reader….could translator of foreign languages be a polite version of the same thing?) b. Edinburgh
Margaret Taylor 58 b. Keith, Banff
Robert Ayton 24
Margaret Ayton 21
George Ayton 20
Annie Ayton 18
Gertrude Jacobs 9 – granddaughter b. England
Address: 48 Rosemount Bdgs, Edinburgh
Monica
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Hi H.C. Thanks for your recent post.
Monica may have hit upon the link between Isabel & Getrude with her last post. Thank you Monica. :) I hope Josh is still watching this thread as it sounds like he has done more research on the Ayton branch & may be able to confirm more.
Now that you have posted for the 3rd time I can send you a personal message about another extension of the family. Yesterday I found what I beleive to be Gertrude's wayward f-i-l's death certificate - with some unexpected details. (Robert Copland was married to Jessie Inkster & father to Gertrude's husband, Jack. He was not on the scene by the time Jack & Gertrude married.)
It is really wonderful of you to share the anecdotes you have - and I look forward to seeing the pictures. :) :) :) :)
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Hi
There is no doubt that you have got the right family. On one of the photos that Gertrude sent to my father in 1979 she has written “Aunt Meg. Uncle George & my Mummy.” The picture shows three children of roughly similar age in Victorian/Edwardian dress. Since the picture was sent to my father, the ‘my Mummy’ presumably refers to Gertrude herself, though I am not sure if this works out age-wise.
My father, John, was particularly fond of “Auntie Meg” (Margaret) as, when very young, he was brought up in her family. She lived with her husband and daughter in Brunswick Street, Edinburgh. Meg’s daughter was then in her teens and, as well as taking John to the nearby (silent) movies, she introduced him to the 1920s “Jazz Age” in the form of a wind-up gramophone and records by Paul Whiteman and his Orchestra – a love which went with him through his life. When he reached school age he went back to stay with his father and others in Gilmore Place. I am looking forward to sending photographs – I am spending quite a bit of time at the scanner – but I am not sure how to go about it.
HC
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HC, Gertrude's comments on the photo she sent to your father (“Aunt Meg. Uncle George & my Mummy.”) I would think refer to the correct generation showing on that 1901 census entry, with Meg being the 21 yrs old Margaret, then you also have brother George and 'my mummy' and your ggrandmother would be Christina (who went on to marry William Jacobs I would say).
Monica :)
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Regarding the stories you recount of your father's early years, I particularly enjoyed reading this excerpt http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/tayside_and_central/7438251.stm
Your recollections certainly make it all come alive, thank you :)
Monica
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Thanks RedMystic for your Gertrude Ayton topic. Have enjoyed reading all about her and her extended family. A great result...... :) :)
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All we need now is a picture of her !
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Agreed ::) ::)
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Try putting Gertrude Ayton into Google images ! Up come lots of our Rootschat avatars !!
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Gosh - we're all famous. ;D
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Thanks to Howard, I have the distinct pleasure of introducing Gertrude.
Thank you Howard & thank you to all the Chatters who have helped on the search & followed the story. :-* :-*
It's almost too much to hope for whenever we're researching, but Howard isn't a family history buff & he found us anyway. ;) His b-i-l was doing a search on-line for something else, saw a reference to our conversation about Gertrude, and the rest is now unfolding.
In addition to having the fun of learning about Gertrude & her relatives, this research has connected family members who knew nothing of one another before. Because of this, I won't say it's the end. Instead, it's a wonderful beginning!
Thanks again to one & all. :) :-*
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Oh wow !
Thanks to Howard, the search is sort of rounded off ! Rootschat at its best !!
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Here she is a bit smaller. When I enlarged the picture, she seems to have had some work done around the chin and neck .... maybe she was getting a bit of middle aged chubbiness, and had the photo touched up to get rid of it.
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A thank-you to Howard. Thank you Red Mystic. Pleased to meet you Gertrude :) :)
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Thanks to Howard & to RedMystic for the photo - this thread has been fascinating, best wishes to all the extended family!
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Here is Gertrude in her earlier days. She was a beauty - & it sounds like that was true both inside & out! (Thanks again Howard. :))
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Is this size OK?
Monica
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Thank you Monica. It's a much more acceptable size now.
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She looks beautiful doesn't she! I love the energy, strength and fun in the look of her face :)
Monica
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Gosh ! What a beauty !
You are so fortunate to have tracked her down and got photos from Howard ... envy, envy !!
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Lovely to see her in her prime. Thank you Red Mystic and thanks also to Howard and Monica....
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Hello Howard (and all),
I am new to this amazing forum. I am researching into the history and development of blood transfusion and would very much like to know where can I find more information about John Robert Copland...or about any aspect of wartime blood transfusion.
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Hello Wau and welcome to Rootschat.
You have posted onto the end of an old thread where not many people will see your request. It would be much better to start a new thread as you are more likely to get replies.
Give as much detail, ie. dates as you can, but just remember not to mention by name anyone who is, or who may be still alive.
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Many thanks, Groom, for your advice. So, I'll take this opportunity to say hello again. I am new to this amazing forum. I am researching into the history and development of blood transfusion and would very much like to know where can I find more information about John Robert Copland...or about any aspect of wartime blood transfusion. When I discover how to make a new post, I will do so - and send this message ...again!
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Go to The Beginners Forum http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?board=47.0 press new topuc. Give your topic an eye catching name, type in your question and Post. If a Mod thinks it would be better in another place they will move it for you.
Good luck.
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If everyone is as helpful as you, Groom, than I think I'll get along just fine, here! Thanks again.
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Hi Wau
I compiled quite a bit on Mr Copeland (related to my husband) & am in touch with other family who have more than I. I'll send you a personal message when I'm not typing on my phone in a few hours to see if I can assist. :)
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Hi Wau
I compiled quite a bit on Mr Copeland (related to my husband) & am in touch with other family who have more than I. I'll send you a personal message when I'm not typing on my phone in a few hours to see if I can assist. :)
Hi, I am new to this site and have been going through some of my grandmother's papers.
She died in 1983 but I have only just recently acquired them.
I found some letters written to her by a Gertrude Ayton and the address on one of the letters is the Feldman's Theatre in Blackpool. The other two letters are not as old as the first one (dated 1976) which has an address in Blackpool.
After doing some research the Feldman's Theatre was opened in the early 1920's and was bought in late 1951 by Jimmy Brennan and the name was changed to the Queen's Theatre.
I have been trying to find out who this lady "Gertrude" was and I came across this forum on my searches.
I am convinced this lady is your Gertrude, as in the first letter she mentions being busy rehearsing for the Christmas show.
In the two later letters, she mentions...."I still see the Pro's, we are all firm friends"....and then goes on to mentioned three people, two of whom are quite well known.
I will be more than happy to let you have copies of these letters if you are interested.
I am not sure how the older letter will copy as she has written it in pencil, between rehearsals, and is quite hard to read.
Also, in one of the letters written in 1976 she says "I am expecting my eldest son and his wife sometime this month, they are going to take me back to Edinburgh with them for a wee holiday. Then in June I will have my younger son and his wife with me."
Tracey
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Hi Tracey
Welcome to RootsChat :)
RedMystic will be thrilled for sure.
Can't believe how this story and searches have expanded over time.
Monica
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Yes Monica......... As one who has followed this story I can't wait to hear RedMystic's reply to this
news :D :D
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Hi Tracey, welcome to RootsChat ... and welcome to the family. ;)
I would LOVE to see the letters! :-* You need to make 2 more posts on this thread before I can send a personal message to you with my e-mail. (Just post "Hi" and then start a third post.) ;)
I'm not sure if Howard still has a live link to this page, but I stay in touch with him. He's Gertrude's grandson in Scotland & I met him through this search. There is also a cousin in eastern Canada (I'm in the west).
Was your grandmother in the performance field? Both Howard & the eastern Canadian cousin have photos with people we can't identify - one never knows if your grandmother was one of the beauties.
So nice to meet you. I look forward to chatting more about your grandmother & how she might have met Gertrude. :)
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Hi Tracey, welcome to RootsChat ... and welcome to the family. ;)
I would LOVE to see the letters! :-* You need to make 2 more posts on this thread before I can send a personal message to you with my e-mail. (Just post "Hi" and then start a third post.) ;)
I'm not sure if Howard still has a live link to this page, but I stay in touch with him. He's Gertrude's grandson in Scotland & I met him through this search. There is also a cousin in eastern Canada (I'm in the west).
Was your grandmother in the performance field? Both Howard & the eastern Canadian cousin have photos with people we can't identify - one never knows if your grandmother was one of the beauties.
So nice to meet you. I look forward to chatting more about your grandmother & how she might have met Gertrude. :)
Hi
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Hi Tracey, welcome to RootsChat ... and welcome to the family. ;)
I would LOVE to see the letters! :-* You need to make 2 more posts on this thread before I can send a personal message to you with my e-mail. (Just post "Hi" and then start a third post.) ;)
I'm not sure if Howard still has a live link to this page, but I stay in touch with him. He's Gertrude's grandson in Scotland & I met him through this search. There is also a cousin in eastern Canada (I'm in the west).
Was your grandmother in the performance field? Both Howard & the eastern Canadian cousin have photos with people we can't identify - one never knows if your grandmother was one of the beauties.
So nice to meet you. I look forward to chatting more about your grandmother & how she might have met Gertrude. :)
Hi
Hi Tracey, welcome to RootsChat ... and welcome to the family. ;)
I would LOVE to see the letters! :-* You need to make 2 more posts on this thread before I can send a personal message to you with my e-mail. (Just post "Hi" and then start a third post.) ;)
I'm not sure if Howard still has a live link to this page, but I stay in touch with him. He's Gertrude's grandson in Scotland & I met him through this search. There is also a cousin in eastern Canada (I'm in the west).
Was your grandmother in the performance field? Both Howard & the eastern Canadian cousin have photos with people we can't identify - one never knows if your grandmother was one of the beauties.
So nice to meet you. I look forward to chatting more about your grandmother & how she might have met Gertrude. :)
Hi
Hi Tracey, welcome to RootsChat ... and welcome to the family. ;)
I would LOVE to see the letters! :-* You need to make 2 more posts on this thread before I can send a personal message to you with my e-mail. (Just post "Hi" and then start a third post.) ;)
I'm not sure if Howard still has a live link to this page, but I stay in touch with him. He's Gertrude's grandson in Scotland & I met him through this search. There is also a cousin in eastern Canada (I'm in the west).
Was your grandmother in the performance field? Both Howard & the eastern Canadian cousin have photos with people we can't identify - one never knows if your grandmother was one of the beauties.
So nice to meet you. I look forward to chatting more about your grandmother & how she might have met Gertrude. :)
Hi
Hi RedMystic,
Hope I have done this right !!!
No my Grandmother was not in the performance field, from what I can gather she met Gertrude at one of her performances, the first letter from Gertrude is very formal starting Dear Mrs Parkinson, the later two letters use her first name, they must have become friends.
I remember seeing somewhere my Grandmother and another lady I do not know in a photograph, taken quite late on in life, my Nan was 79 when she died in 1983. I will try and find it and see if it resembles Gertrude. My nan and family, myself too, lived just outside Blackpool in a small village now town called Poulton-le-Fylde.
Hope to speak soon.
Tracey.
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How great it is to hear from you Tracey. It sounds like Gertrude was quite a loving, cuddly sort - except for the relationship with her first husband. ;)
One more post from you & we can exchange e-mails using the personal messaging system. I'm looking forward to it.
If I'm a bit slow responding over the next 48-72 hours please forgive me. ::) I'm packing up one house, then driving 1100km on Friday & unpacking Saturday. I will check in from time to time. ;D
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Hi Redmystic,
I have recently moved from UK to Ireland, so I know exactly what you are going through, they say moving home is one of the most stressful times of your life !!
Great to hear from you and put a picture to the lady my nan used to be friends with, I have wondered for a while who she could be...the letters were with my Dad's papers which I have only just gone through since he moved in with us due to illness.
If it wasn't for modern technology we would all be left in the dark ::)
I will leave you to your packing and look forward to hearing from you when you are more settled, good luck on the move and I hope I have done this right this time :-\
Tracey
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Hi RedMystic,
Letters sent :)
Tracey
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Awesome. Thank you. :-* :-*
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Hi Chatters,
A special thanks to Tracey for the 3 lovely letters from Gertrude. :-* The earliest is from the 1950s. They confirm theaters, connections to Coronation Street performers, and bring her to life.
When I checked in with Gertrude's grandson last night, he let me know that Gertrude's youngest cousin passed away earlier this year and she too had a letter from Gertrude (Christmas 1975) among her belongings - so now I have that too. Similar to the ones Tracey provided, it references actors who were obviously close friends. It also describes what must have been a very fun Christmas party where most guests brought their instruments and had a jam session.
This has been the most wonderful search & it continues to provide pearls of joy. Thanks to all of you. :-*
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Hi RedMystic,
So pleased the letters have brought you much joy :) It was only down to my curiosity that I decided to research Gertrude, I am so happy I did now.
The letters must have meant a lot to my Nan as well, there were no other personal letters with her effects, not even from close family and I thank my father and late mother for keeping them. I dread to think that left to any other members of the family they would have been thrown away !!!
If you have access to FB you might like to check out Blackpool's Past site, lots of old pictures and memorabilia on there.
So pleased to have met you and the other members,
Tracey.
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Thanks again Tracey. :-*
I look forward to receiving the originals.
Gertrude's grandson Howard (found through this search) was born to her eldest son with her first husband. He now has Tracey's letter scans, but doesn't want the originals.
While I have the name of her younger son born to her second husband, the two families did not stay in touch. (One of Tracey's letters refers to one grown son coming for a visit followed by the other a few weeks later.)
I know Gertrude's 2nd son had a daughter so even if he has passed away, I hope one day to track her down. If she wants the letters, I'll turn them over to her. Until then, I'll keep them with my family history treasures.
By the way, my recent e-mails to Howard brought me up-to-date on Gertrude's youngest cousin. She is far out of my family connections, but he had asked me (on behalf of Gertrude's elderly cousin) to find out something about her father. She didn't know his first name, but had some information that enabled the dots to align.
Like Gertrude's search, it was a bit of a sleuth but Chatters came through. If you want to read about that one, here's the link.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=596748.msg4468578#msg4468578
Thanks again to one & all. :) :-*
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Hi RedMystic,
I have just read all the posts a bit more thoroughly.
As I have said before I was born just outside Blackpool in Poulton-le-Fylde about 4 miles from Blackpool.
I know it is perhaps a long shot but there was a Hanson living around the corner from us, probably similar age to my Dad, born 1936 and I was friends with his daughter, we went to school together, I was born 1964, do you think perhaps he could have been Gertrude's second son. I am not sure if he is still alive because I moved from Poulton to Cleveleys in 2001, but I do know his daughter still lives in Poulton...and I could find out more information...Harry Hanson's middle name wasn't Thomas by any chance was it ?
Tracey.
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Hi,
I have just done a search and found my Hanson who was born in 1934 but his mother's maiden name was Cookson....a common name for the area....perhaps a cousin of your relative.... who knows.
Sorry for the error, but I really should look up first before I post.
Tracey.
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Hello to everyone who has information on Gertrude Ayton - I am her Granddaughter from her son Derek Hanson. I think someone was talking about Poulton-le-Fylde and a Hanson living there - that would be my great Uncle Carey with his wife Bernice and daughter. I would be interested in the letters that I think Red Mystic said they had.
I look forward to hearing from anyone on this subject as maybe some of the information is only speculation and I can possibly shed more light on the subject.
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Hi lyn.cam
Welcome to Rootschat ;D
Everyone who has contributed to this topic should receive an email notification that you have posted and hopefully come back soon.
We have a 'no living people' policy here so if any of the people you mentioned are still alive, could you [modify] your topic and remove their names. Thanks.
Dawn
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Hi lyn.cam
Welcome on board :)
Red Mystic will be thrilled that you have found her post. She will pick up a notification of your post. Sure she will be in touch here ;)
Monica
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Thank you for your welcome. I am looking forward to hearing from all of you.
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Hello. Hello. Hello. It's lovely to meet you, lyn.cam. ;D (Don't watch while I do a happy dance & back flip. ;) )
I'm away from home for a few days, but will send you a private message so we can exchange e-mail addresses so we can get in touch more around the end of the week.
It's sooooooooo great to connect. :) While I'm in Canada, there is a more closely related living "cousin" in Scotland. Unfortunately, the fellow who "introduced" me to Gertrude and set me on the search path is no longer with us.
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Firstly, apologies as i am a newbie and havnt yet found my feet on this site but I had done a search online for Gertrude Ayton and found references to this site. I was doing the search as I have an old autograph album which contains a few film and stage stars from the 30s and Gertrude Ayton's autograph is on one page along with 5 other names. I am assuming that it is the same Gertrude Ayton as the subject of this post. Happy to submit photo of page if anyone is interested and if its indeed possible to post photos!?
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Good morning Chsskg & thank you for joining us here at RootsChat.
It would be very generous of you to share an image of Gertrude's autograph. When you do your next post on this thread, you will see a "Attachments and other options" under the message box. Click that and you will be able to attach the image.
You will need to ensure that the maximum size of the image is 500 KBytes. Images over 500 KB cannot be posted.
Alternatively, once you have responded to this message, I can send you a personal message. (You have to post 2x in order to use the RootsChat personal messaging system.) We can then exchange email addresses, you can send the image of the autograph page to me, and I will size and upload it.
Thanks again for making contacting. :)
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Hi,
Thanks for your message. I think tbe photo file is larger than half a meg but ill try the attachments link at bottom and see what happens. Happy to exchange emails and send you a picture of the album page. Id be interested if you could confirm whether its the same person from any other examples of signature you might have.
Thanks in advance
Regards
Chris
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This is a reply to the question of Gertrude Ayton's signature - yes this is my Grandmothers' signature. I hope this helps you. Thanks lyn.cam
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Thank you Lyn.cam. Im guessing the other signatures will be other performers in a theatrical production that the owner of the album went to see. Many thanks again.
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Hi
I don't know if this has already been highlighted, but Gertrude appeared in a stage version of The Archers, do you need any information on this?.