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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Midlothian => Topic started by: fortiter on Friday 03 February 12 01:05 GMT (UK)
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This shop was still in existence about 1980, although no longer in the family as Robert Allan had long since died. I understand the business was established by Robert Allan who was born in Nigg and lived at Belleville Lodge, Blackett Avenue. Is the shop still trading and does anyone know anything of its history?
Jonathan
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Jonathan
Have you got any details on the family at all in respect of the business? I can see some things, but not sure if connected. For example, some film here http://ssa.nls.uk/film.cfm?fid=7698 and http://ssa.nls.uk/film.cfm?fid=7696 The descriptives for the film may help.
Monica
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Thanks for you interest and help, Monica.
I don't think that James Allan & Son Ltd, Bootmakers is what I am looking for.
Robert Allan's business may have been J & R Allan Ltd, described as silk merchants and drapers and also as a department store, which doesn't sound quite like a shoe store. The "R" could be Robert, but I have no idea who the "J" may have been. Robert Allan was described as a "Drapers Assistant" in the 1861 Census when he was still living in Nigg, so that ties in. He would have died sometime after 1909, the year he visited his brother (my grandfather) in New Zealand.
Hopefully these comments might be of help.
Jonathan
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Hi Johnathan
There was a shop called J&R Allan's at the corner of the Bridges and Chambers Street, in Edinburgh.
Hibee
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The Post Office Directories might come in handy, www.nls.uk/family-history/directories/post-office/index.cfm?place=Edinburgh
The online issues finish at 1912, but plenty to look through. You can search either by name or address (try both ways of viewing the directories to see what suits best).
Monica
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There was also a Peter Allans on the Bridges but on Princes Street in the 1960s there was an Allans shoe shop
if I remember right it was along towards the west a very expensive shop .
Jessie
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Robert Allan's business may have been J & R Allan Ltd, described as silk merchants and drapers and also as a department store, which doesn't sound quite like a shoe store. The "R" could be Robert, but I have no idea who the "J" may have been.
This is Robert and wife Jessie in 1891:
Robert Allan 48, draper b. Nigg
Jessie Allan 38 wife, b. Perth
Mathew H Speedie 28, brother in law, shipowner b. Perth
Lily Mearns 22, servant
Address: 10, Minto St, Edinburgh
The address then fits in with this 1891-2 PO Directory entry, where as you have said, there is a mention of (J. & R.A). www.archive.org/stream/postofficeedinbu189192edin#page/n61/mode/2up
Monica
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From the same year/directory, looking at the section of businesses under trades/types of business here www.archive.org/stream/postofficeedinbu189192edin#page/558/mode/2up
Under 'Drapers and Silk Mercers' shows an entry for Allan, J and R at 80-84 S bridge (is this the area/street you referred to earlier, Jessie?).
Big listing here for the business in 1911-12 www.archive.org/stream/postofficeedinbu19111912edin#page/6/mode/2up
Monica
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This is more what we need here www.housefraserarchive.ac.uk/company/?id=c0729 ...went on to be renamed Arnotts I think?
An intersting aside... www.flickr.com/photos/charmainezoe/5327361285/
A photo of the frontage of the shop here www.scran.ac.uk/database/record.php?usi=000-000-534-515-C - late 1960s?
And, what happened to the building in its later years here http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/SCT-FIFE/2000-12/0976269215 Always sad to see the derilict buildings after a great history as here http://searchweb.scran.ac.uk/database/record.php?usi=000-000-546-173-C
Monica
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Many thanks Monica, Hibee and Jessie for your help.
10 Minto St was definitely Robert Allan's address (I have photos of him there, although I think the house may be numbered to a different street now). As there is a reference to J&R Allan in the PO Directory at this address, then J & R Allan must be the business I am looking for. I don't know where the idea I had that there was a"Robert Allan Shoe Shop" came from and there seems to be no evidence that my Robert Allan had such a business. Robert's brother William also had a successful drapery business in Wellington, New Zealand - a far cry from a father and grandfather who were blacksmiths.
Jonathan
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Every generation hopefully goes on to bigger and better as they look to have in your family :)
I am curious about the J in the 'J & R Allan' but haven't been able to find any reference to the J other than he must have been male (I had a wild notion, for those times, that it might have been his wife Jessie but not to be!) I did see it referred to in something I saw yesterday as Messrs. J & R Allan.
Monica
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Hi All,
I remember J & R Allan shop at South Bridge, it was an up-market shop, my mother used to haul me thriugh it with my sisters. I seem to remember there was a shoe shop, could be James Allan bootmakers further up, possibly in Nicholson Street, maybe there was a connection there. The shop was just past the Causewayside junction, on the opposite side from the Odeon cinema.
Tom
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There was a shoe shop on the corner of Nicolson Street just passed the La Scala picture house it was the Co-op ("Store")gents shoe shop just past it was their shop which sold everything clothes , electrical goods -- etc.
Cheers,
Jessie
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Hi Jessie,
It was the block after the Co-op, in St Patrick Street, just passed East Crosscauseway. I was in Street view, and I think it maybe where Boots the Chemist is now.
Tom
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Hello there Tom,
Spending a few days with friend we are all originally from the Edinburgh area --- you set us all of last night trying to remember the names not of shoe shops but of all the shop from the Co-op gents shop I'll tell you we had some fun .
We cannot remember what was opposite the gents shoe shop where there is a jewellers now at one corner
of East Crosscauseway we think was a Burrows wool shop opposite was Findlays the chemist the next corner
was the foot of Rankeillor Street there was an ironmongers shop (part of Grays of George Street) opposite
was another chemists - then the next street corner was Montague Street one corner was Rankins the other we cannot remember what was there,
The shoe shops we can remember were Trueform, Timpsons , Easiphit and Carrs (they at one time had a warehouse at the Geological place in Gilmerton Road ) and Bairds
One shop I do remember however which was right opposite the New Victoria(0deon) was Woods the jewellers as that is where my engagement ring was purchased in the early 1960's
One last thing Tom can you remember all the rows of chickens being roasted as you went through J&R's food hall I can still smell them yet .
So come on all you folk from the area please can you help us.
Sorry I know this is not geneology but it is still a wee bit of history.
Cheers,
Jessie
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Hi Jessie,
The roasting chickens in the food hall...oh yes, maybe that is why we were hauled through the shop. I agree that this has went a wee bit off topic, apologies to all, my fault.
I remember all the shops you mention, both my sisters worked in Bairds the Bootmakers in South Bridge opposite the Tron.
Tom
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Sure all of this will add some colour to Jonathan's query on his great uncle's store :)
Monica
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Yes it certainly will Monica -- it was a super food hall as it was called -- these rotisseries with dear
knows how many chickens on each rod and the smell made you hungry when you walked through it.
10, Minto Street is still there they were large detached villas .
I hope Jonathon has gained from this as I can tell you we had great fun trying to remember everything last
night.
Thanks Monica you really are a star :)
Cheers
Jessie
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Thank you everyone! It has been a fascinating journey, and as you say, Monica, it has certainly added some colour for me. I attach two photos of Robert Allan taken when my grandfather visited Scotland in 1908. Belleville Lodge is the 10 Minto Street address and the party at the Manse at Nigg shows Robert Allan on the left in cap, and William Allan (my grandfather) on the right.
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Hi Jonathan ,
Thanks for posting the photos. You never get anywhere unless you ask .
no 10 Minto Street I believe is now a doctor's surgery I must have a look next time I am in Edinburgh.
Glad to be of help and it certainly has given 4 friends and Tom a trip down memory lane.
This is a great site and everybody does their best to help each other so remember and give us a shout
if there is anything else.
Cheers,
Jessie
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Hi Fortiter et al
I came across this thread quite by accident and don't want to hijack it, but there are some coincidences that I wanted to check.
Did you ever find out if there was a family connection between your Robert Allan & the James Allan noted earlier in the thread? I'm only wondering as I have it on reasonably good authority that my James Allan was a shop keeper. I don't know if he was on Minto Street & haven't yet been able to determine what kind of shop he owned.
The James Allan I'm looking for had a wife named Meg Margaret Ayton. MAYBE his father's name was James Allan.
Then I connected your finds & location to another relative of James Allan. His name was Robert Boyd (also married to an Ayton). (Monica: The following info is courtesy of message on an old photo identified by Gertrude Ayton, Actress of some renown ... remember the merry chase? ;) ;D):
This is the Boyd family. Grandpa’s Sister’s children. I knew them very well. They lived in Minto Street up the Bridges. Mr Boyd had a tobacconist shop on the Bridges – he was very gay – I liked him, he always brought me sweets & Aunt Fanny his wife (my Gt Aunt) who saved my life. The children all did very well for themselves. They had a bunch of boys and only had one girl, Nellie Boyd who went to the USA
Thoughts? Do we have a connection given the Allan name &/or the Boyd business which was located on Minto?
I'll continue to try to search out which business my James Allan had in Edinburgh (unless you tripped over that in your verification of Robert's situation).
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Hello RedMystic.
I have nothing further on James Allan. Robert Allan had a brother James, but he apparently continued to live in Nigg and was described as a "Steam Mill owner" in the 1881 census, and he did not appear to be married at this time. I still have no idea as to the identity of the "J" of J & R Allan (assuming that the "R" is my Robert!). I'm afraid I can see no connection with your James Allan, and the names Boyd and Ayton have not cropped up in my researches.
Thanks for your interest, and I'm sorry that the above does not help much.
Jonathan
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Hi Jonathan. We found your enquiry via an Internet search while also looking into J and R Allan drapers of Edinburgh. Robert Allan is a relative of ours but as yet we haven't managed to link him into the family tree precisely. Our great grandparents were Jane Forbes Paterson b 1838(? a relative of the Paterson and Smith shop bought by J and R Allan for extension in 1920? - see house of Fraser archive) and John Gordon. Our grandmother was their daughter Annie Hunter Gordon who married Alexander Forbes and lived at of Arabella, Nigg. The name Allan first appears with their son Robert Allan Forbes b1909 our uncle. We have a painted dedication from the staff of J and R Allan in recognition of his services. We would be very interested in any photos that you may have for example the family at Minto street. Jane and Liz.
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Hi Jonathan. We found your enquiry via an Internet search while also looking into J and R Allan drapers of Edinburgh. Robert Allan is a relative of ours but as yet we haven't managed to link him into the family tree precisely. Our great grandparents were Jane Forbes Paterson b 1838(? a relative of the Paterson and Smith shop bought by J and R Allan for extension in 1920? - see house of Fraser archive) and John Gordon. Our grandmother was their daughter Annie Hunter Gordon who married Alexander Forbes and lived at of Arabella, Nigg. The name Allan first appears with their son Robert Allan Forbes b1909 our uncle. We have a painted dedication from the staff of J and R Allan in recognition of his services. We would be very interested in any photos that you may have for example the family at Minto street. Jane and Liz.
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Greetings Jane and Liz. Many thanks for you interesting message!
Alexander Forbes is the son of Ann/Annie Allan who is my Great Aunt.
I have quite a bit more information which should be of interest to you, and it may be better to communicate direct. I have asked Customer Support how to go about getting my email address to you, as I wasn't sure how to do it! I hope you are happy with this idea, and I look forward to more communication with you both.
Kind regards,
Jonathan
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Hi Jonathan. I'm happy to give you my direct email. I'm liz's daughter and jane's niece or to be precise Annie Hunter Gordon and Alexander Forbes' great granddaughter! We're all together for the weekend and my typing is fastest so messaging on their behalf!. (*)
If we can we'll get you a photo of the dedication to J and R Allen mentioned before. Looking forward to hearing from you again. Kate.
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to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
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Hi, I don't think the Bellville lodge is 10 Minto St, as we live there at no.10 now and it doesn't look like the door? According to the census, R.Allan lived here for 25 years, so it's nice to see a picture of him, thanks!
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So very nice to hear from the occupants of my great uncle's old house!
Your are correct - Bellville Lodge is at 5 Blackett Avenue and according to the internet is now a nursing home. I assume that Robert Allan moved here from 10 Minto Street - I believe he was at Bellville Lodge in 1908. If you have dates from the census showing when Robert lived at 10 Minto I would appreciate having them.
I have sent you a personal message also (I think!)
Many thanks for your response,
Jonathan
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Is anyone still reading this thread? I am related to the James Allan and Son Bootmakers mentioned further up the thread, and while I don't know of any related businesses going under a different name, I'd be interested to explore further!