RootsChat.Com
Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: heaven on Monday 30 January 12 10:16 GMT (UK)
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I have been trying to find my Great Grandfather, "William James Russell"
The only record I have been able to find is a marriage certificate - 2 may 1877 in Ulverstone, Tasmania, he married Eliza Jane Biddle, the parents are not listed on this certificate. William was 23 and Eliza 20.
Three children were born in Tasmania and four in Victoria.
Eliza died 26 May 1947 in Carnegie, Victoria, her parents, William Biddle & Catherine Gittons are listed on this certificate. It also states she lived 20 years in Tasmania and 70 in Victoria, she was aged 90.
William and Eliza were together on Electoral rolls, 1903 in Healesville, Victoria, 1914 in Collingwood Victoria, from 1919
on Eliza was alone.
The family story is that William left home one day and never returned!
I haven't been able to establish who his parents were as I haven't been able to find a death certificate. Nor have i found their births, maybe they were children of immigrant parents!
Can anyone offer a suggestion
Judy
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Hi
have you checked the ship arrivals or the convict arrivals for william. He may have coame out as a convict and was pardoned in Tas. A lot of them resettled in Victoria. Check Port Arthur records. Just a thought.
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Hi Heaven, Your G Grandparents went to Victoria after all the Gold Fever had died down, around the late 1870's. I dont know if they were convicts doesn't really matter, but a search of the english census for the 1861 & 1871, may reveal something. It is a bit of a wildcard, but worth a try. Have you searched "TROVE" for any possible listings? Also I note there are two possibles on Vic BDM have you checked these, it is free to search but if you want certs or to check if the right person it costs a tiny bit, worth to either verify or dispense.
Let us know if you need help with any of the above. ;)
Neil :D
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Sorry meant to add transportation to Tasmania ended in 1853, a year before you GGrandfathers birth. So he wasn't a convict but his parents may have been? Going to make it a bit hard if this is the case.
Neil
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Birth certificate for the children b. Victoria should have age and birthplace for parents.
Do you have 1877 marriage certificate...will not have parents but witnesses might be relatives. Church they marry in might also be church where (Tas.) children are baptised....godparents might be relatives.
Numbers on the death certificate look suspiciously rounded off...20, 70, 90...so I would not be limited by them.
What is occupation for William?
From electoral rolls 1914 and 1919...what addresses are given please?
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You haven't said if you have any documentation which gives a place of birth for William and Eliza. As Wivenhoe has said, any of the Victorian born children's birth certificates should give a place of birth for both parents.
Death certificates can be unreliable, and I wonder if this may be Eliza's birth:
Female Child - BIDDLE
Birth Date: 6 Oct 1856
Father: Henry BIDDLE
Mother: Catherine GITTONS
Registered: Westbury, Tasmania
Registration number: 1754
Henry and Catherine were married in August 1856. Henry may have had a previous wife, Ann ROGERS, who died in 1855.
There are two unnamed male RUSSELL children whose births were registered in Tas in 1853 and 1854.
Debra :)
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Here is an obit for a William James Russell who was a respected timber man living in Healsville until an accident. He is about the right age 72 in May 1926. He leaves a widow with 8 children (details given).
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60291257
regards,
Ros
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If that is the right person then ancestry gives a death reg no 3998 for a Wm Jas Russell age 71 in Back Forest. Vic in 1926 with
mother Ctina Learid
father Geo Glue
regards,
Ros
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From the Vic Index:
RUSSELL Wm Jas. d 1926 aged 71 B Forest- Parents- Glue George and Ctina LEAIRD # 3998
Regards
Alison
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The death found by Rosball appears to be correct.
The man is buried at KEW CEMETERY
http://www.kewcemetery.com.au/ShowGrave.aspx?ServiceID=50097
with others who are not his wife ELIZA.
EDIT
NOTE
Altered link to correct one
The Obituary regarding his timber work etc lists his family of adult children
ELIZA JANE is at FAWKNER CEMETERY and her obituary also listes her children whose names appear to be very much the same as those of the WILLIAM JAMES at Kew.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0k1m/
Sue
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Wm died at Beech Forest according to the obit in the newspaper and noted on the Vic index as B FOREST and Ancestry as Back Forest ::).
This is possibly his birth....only parents of those names
GLUE William James
Father George Mother Christiina LEAIRD
At Kilmore 1855 Reg#5131
and could this marriage may be relevant...2nd marriage for mother or relative
GLUE Christina born Tasmania
KENNY Michael born Kings Co
1868 Reg#1291
Cando
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There is a convict called George GLUE who came out in 1834 with his brother Joseph on the HOOGLEY
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There are a couple of George GLUE's appearing on TROVE and there is this death SA.... was convicted of several felonies in that state. It was probably his wife that remarried in 1868....
Death
GLUE George
26 Sep 1868 60 years
Residence Adelaide Died Adelaide Ade 322/33
A news item about his death.
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0k1o/
Cando
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I can't find it on a Google map and my ex husband inherited all our survey maps of the area but when we were first married we used to go trail riding at a place called Black Forest (never forget it because we lived in what was called Blackforest in Macedon - so my family used to laugh that we weren't really going on holiday).
From memory it was between Healsville and Narbathong. It was a tiny camping ground when I used to go there 25 years ago but it was probably much bigger when they were logging out there.
Took a look at the newspaper article and also know where Beech Forest is (also spent many tanks of fuel there trail riding). Its in the Otway Ranges. Totally different part of the state.
Sorry to mislead you.
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Omitted the symbol G from the death reg...sorry
G. Age Guessed by Informant/Registrar
From the obituary
When the family removed from Healesvllle Mr. Russell secured employment at Beech Forest district, where he continued to work up to the time of his death.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beech_Forest,_Victoria
Australian Electoral Roll
1903 Mernda/Healesville
RUSSELL Eliza Jane Gracedale HD
RUSSELL William James Gracedale Labourer
1924
Vic Corangamite/ Beech Forest
RUSSELL William James Crowes Timber getter
So we are now seeking information about William James GLUE who used the surname RUSSELL.
Cando
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beech_Forest,_Victoria
Cando
So busy modifying my post I didn't get the red warning - great minds think alike Cando ;)
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Whose marriage is this in NSW although with a birth reg 1855 would make Wm c17 years at marriage.
3002/1872
GLUE William
CLARK Margaret
There are no births registered to this couple and
Death
7892/1880
GLUE Margaret
District Maitland East
Possibly not Wm James RUSSELL ;D
Cando
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This appears to be relevant.....
george glue was born in rogate england in 1809.
he attempted to steal some sheets worth 3s, for this he was sent to australia!
he went to australia on the hooghley in 1834.
he got his certificate of freedom and his ticket of leave in 1842...... he never returned to england.
instead he married tina leaird and they had a son called william glue, born 1855 in victoria australia.
after this.... who knows where he moved to! i know that he left NSW, but does anyone know where he went to next? did he have any more children etc>
Christina's surname appears as LAIRD on the following KENNY birth regs......and one birth before marriage..possibly two. I can't find her birth in Tasmania.
KENNY Bridget
Father Michael Mother Christian LAIRD
At Plenty Range 1866 Reg#11713
KENNY Michael
Father Michael Mother Christina LAIRD
At Upper Plenty 1868 Reg#20160
KENNY Patrick
Father Michael Mother Christina LAIRD
At Kilmore 1871 Reg# 17023
It would appear that George had departed Victoria by 1859. Have a search on TROVE.
Cando
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I thought I'd try and find the children for you
1. Clare Matilda Schnell b Ulverstone TAS 1878 - d 1971 Collingwood VIC
2. Frederick (Ernest) b 1886 Healsville VIC - d 1974 Moon(ee ponds) VIC
3. Eliza (Eileen) Mrs. SymonsMadge Eileen Symons b 1895 Healesville d 1969 Glen VIC
4. Henry
5. 4. Kate Mrs. A. McRae
6. Maud Mrs J. ??? deceased by 1947
7. William
8. George James b 1893 - d 1965 Tall(angetta) VIC
These are not in order and I will edit when I find information.
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Ted he married as a RUSSELL in 1877 and the births to he and ELiza Jane BIDDLE are RUSSELL.
Perhaps the OP can tell us what information she has.
Cheers
Cando
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WOW! Thanks to everyone that replied to my post, I retrieved the death certificate on line for William Russell and was very surprised to find that he was actually born in Kilmore, Vic, by the name of "William James Glue" and his alias was Russell. His father was George Glue, mother Christina Kenny (Nee Leaird). George along with his brother Joseph were transported together to New South Wales on the ship ""Hooghley" on 25th July 1834.
It would seem at some time William moved to Tasmania, because it was here he married Eliza Biddle.
Also I found William's burial, he is buried with his mother Christina Kenny, from this it appears his parents were not married.
More searching to be done, but thanks to all at Rootschat the dead end has been removed. Thank you so much.
Judy
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Why do you think his parents' were not married?
Incidentally George GLUE's SA death cert will have very little info other than what is on the index. I wouldn't waste my dollars buying it :)
Cando
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For your interest the details of the 2 men who are buried with WILLIAM at KEW CEMETERY on the link given.
CHAPMAN Mark Wm
Father Chapman Mark
Mother Ellen WILLIAMS
Death Place BWORTH
Age 69
Year 1939
Reg Number 12263
KENNY Jas Chrisr
Father Kenny Michl
Mother Ctina LAIRD
Death Place FROY
Age 57
Year 1934
Reg Number: 8413
Sue
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William's birth in Victoria :
William James GLUE b 1855 Kilmore George GLUE and Ctine LEAIRD #
Regards
Alison
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This much later death will help to place the identity of the man CHAPMAN in the grave with mother and sons.
CHAPMAN Lucy
Father Kenny Michael
Mother Christina LAIRD
Death Place PARK
Age 96
Year 1974
Reg Number 7986
Sue
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William's birth in Victoria :
William James GLUE b 1855 Kilmore George GLUE and Ctine LEAIRD #
Regards
Alison
Info reply#10 ;)
The surname is LAIRD on the KENNY births.
The KENNY/GLUE marriage cert would give you more info about Christine/a
Cando
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Cremation
Fawkner Memorial Park
CHAPMAN Lucy
4/04/1974
Aged 96 are located at New Lawn Area Wall Niches Compartment G Side E Row 5 Niche 4.
Sue
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And here is the marraige just to add to the proof of who Mark Wm Chapman was
Lucy Kenny
Spouse Wm Mark Chapman place, Victoria, year 1902 reg # 1932
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Sparrett, So much information, trying to get my head around all the replies, to say "I'm a bit addled" would sum it up. but, I will certainly be following through on every ones leads. Thanks again.
Judy
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It would appear that George had departed Victoria by 1859. Have a search on TROVE. CANDO
Perhaps he had, but Ummmm... ::)
GLEW George
Father George
Mother Christiana LAIRD
Birth Place PLEN
Year 1860
AND
GLEW Charles
Father George
Mother Christiana LAIRD
Birth Place PLEN
Year 1862
Reg Number 23959
ADDING
HERE is another KENNY
KENENY (sic) James
Father Michael
Mother Christina LAIRD
Birth Place KILMORE
Year 1877
Reg Number 16616
Sue
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Also I found William's burial, he is buried with his mother Christina Kenny, from this it appears his parents were not married.
They were married in VIC:
GLEW George m. TAYERD Christina 1854 #25724
Denomination: Church of England
Parish: KILMORE
Fiche: 375
It's possible that that George was married previously & after this marriage also.
I'll will post that information later when I check it :)
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The son CHARLES died young.
CHRISTINA had a different presentation of her name at this time. ;)
GLEW Charles
Father George
Mother Christina Kenny LAIRD
Age 14
Birth Place PLENTY
Year 1877
Reg Number 7296
Sue
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It's possible that that George was married previously MERLIN
If you are looking at the same marriage as I saw, it looks more like married at the same time rather than previously
Sue
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& after this marriage also. MERLIN
There was of course a son to GEORGE and CHRISTINA named GEORGE.
I wonder whether the marriage on the index for GEORGE GLEW is actuallly for him.
Will wait for MERLIN to post the details of thoughts.
(Lots more children..... ???)
Sue
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There are a number of items on TROVE about a George GLEW in NSW..
It would be interesting to see the KENNY/GLUE 1868 marriage cert and is it a co-incidence that a George GLUE whose age at death has been guessed by the informant or registrar, died in 1868 in SA?
I have today contacted the Adelaide Cemeteries Authority re the burial information about George GLUE on their website.
From an email received this pm....
I have corrected the date of death and age for George Glue. It would appear that there was a misinterpretation of the original burial record as it would appear that the ‘3 months’ was picked up from the next burial entry in the register. These changes will be reflected in our online search facility on Monday 6 Feb.
Cando
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It's possible that that George was married previously MERLIN
If you are looking at the same marriage as I saw, it looks more like married at the same time rather than previously
& after this marriage also. MERLIN
There was of course a son to GEORGE and CHRISTINA named GEORGE.
I wonder whether the marriage on the index for GEORGE GLEW is actuallly for him.
Will wait for MERLIN to post the details of thoughts.
It was a couple of marriages in NSW that I was looking at, they don't appear to be him after cross checking other records.
But I did see one for Joseph his (brother?) who was transported on the same ship.
The other marriages in Victoria are not him. The 1854 to Agnes LONDON/LOUDEN is a different George GLEW & the one in 1879 to Eliza IRVING could possibly be his son & I have noticed he used George Andrew GLEW on his children's births. Only a copy of the marriage certificate would probably prove if he was George & Christina's son.
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Another birth that wasn't registered.
Death
GLEM Catherine
Father George Mother Christina LAIRD
1877 19 years born Kilmore Reg#2006
Cando
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PROV has digitised papers for the Administration of the estate of Michael KENNY, Splitter, of Kilmore East, died 4 Jul 1892. Administration granted to his widow Christina KELLY of Kilmore East, June 1894
http://210.8.122.120/indexes/index_search_results.asp
Judith
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I have followed thru and obtained some certificates -
1. Birth - , 25 May 1855, Kilmore, Vic, Williams James Glue. Parents George Glue age41 born in Sussex & Christina Leaird age 17 born in Tasmania.
2. Marriage - 9 April 1868 - Christina Glue & Michael Kenny, Plenty Vic, Christina widowed 1864, 4 living children
3. Death - 26 Dec 1926 Northcote Vic, Christine Kenny, parents John Laird & Janet Conway, 5 children to this marriage.
In regards to George Glue - I have his transportation to NSW on the HOUGHLEY 25 July 1834
Certificate of freedom 1842 states year of birth 1809, Native place Chichester,Sussex. Trade Bricklayer. From the general remarks its possible he left a wife & two children (this is not conclusive)
I wonder if the 1868 death index for George in Adelaide is actually him, the article about this death states he was a greengrocer! and if indeed Christina was widowed in 1864 how would we know. The index doesn't give name of parents so I'm thinking they are not on the certificate. I haven't been able to find any other death!
To take my research a step back I need to know who his parents were. Merlin forwarded the info of George & Christina,s marriage from a fische record, where could I find the actual record, maybe that will give his parents. Thanks to all.
Judy
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You can purchase an image of the record and immediately download however I doubt there will be any information about parents etc on a parish record. You must use the spelling on the index ie GLEW, or you won't get a result :)
https://online.justice.vic.gov.au/bdm/index-search?action=purchaseImage
There is no other death for a George GLUE in Aus that matches your man. If you read the all the info posted you will see that George's age at death was 'guessed'. I certainly wouldn't dismiss this record simply because his occupation in the news item was green grocer. He was getting along in years and may not have been able to work as a brick layer. South Aus death certs do not contain much more info that the indexes. I have already mentioned this on a previous post. Similar to the English death certificates.
if indeed Christina was widowed in 1864 how would we know
By searching the death indexes....that's how I found George's death in 1868!
Cando
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Merlin forwarded the info of George & Christina,s marriage from a fische record, where could I find the actual record, maybe that will give his parents. Thanks to all.
JUDY
GLEW George m. TAYERD Christina 1854 #25724Denomination: Church of England
Parish: KILMORE
Fiche: 375 MERLIN
From the indexes and with a REGISTRATION NUMBER
You may download it to learn more.
GLEW George
To TAYERD Christina
Year 1854
Reg Number 25724
Denomination:
Church of England
Parish: Kilmore
Fiche: 375
ADDING. Sorry CANDO I see you have just made the same suggestion!
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Thanks so much for further help, the reason I was questioning George Glue's death in Adelaide 1868 is because of the information on the GLUE/KENNY marriage certificate dated 9 April 1868. Here it states Christine was a widow in 1864, so if the Adelaide death for George Glue is correct, dated 26 Sept 1868, he didn't die until nearly 5 months after his wife Christine married Michael Kenny.
Incidently the Adelaide Cemetery has now amended the burial record, dated dated Sept 1868 age 70.
Judy
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As you have found, not everyone gives accurate information. There was a George GLUE in the in SA by 1859. There is every possiblity that he may not have been the biological father of children registered with he named as the father after all there was a child born and registered as a KENNY in 1866 two years before Christina and Michael married.
I wonder when in 1868 this birth occurred?
KENNY Michael
Father Michael Mother Christina LAIRD
At Upper Plenty 1868 Reg#20160
Information on death certificates only as good as the knowledge of the father.
Incidently the Adelaide Cemetery has now amended the burial record, dated dated Sept 1868 age 70.
Well at least it is better than the 3 months they had noted as his age at death previously. They really should have the same age as on the death registration and that was 'guessed'.
Cheers
Cando
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Just thought I'd put in this MI which I found in a site with photos of graves at Kilmore, in light of the marriage there.
Sacred to the memory of
Catherine Glew
Died December 29
th
1876
Aged 18 years.
http://www.australiancemeteries.com/vic/mitchell/Kilmore%20General%20Cemetery.pdf
This is a wonderful resource with clear photos of lots of memorials. Takes a while to download though because of the photos.
Judith