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General => The Common Room => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: Iain... on Saturday 28 January 12 04:33 GMT (UK)
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When can you accept an “Ancestry” line going back to the 13th century ? I suppose the obvious answer is “it depends on what lies between”?
My maternal Grandfather in Campbeltown Argyll has BMD details going back to Rathlin Island thanks to his 4xGr Grandmother b1747-1810, Antrim, Ireland.
But as any university history student or Googler for that matter will tell you..., “you can get genealogical info from Adam and Eve to about the 16th century and for as long as you latch onto a well doccumented name, you can eventually fill the hole.”
As such..., with next to no documented proof at the time for the “in-between” generations, how should this type of Ancestry tree be treated ?
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With extreme caution :)
Ann
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Hi Ann ! You are up early ! :) Thanks !
I suppose I could have added that there are many well known families such as the Royals who have cast-iron trees and linking on to them could be one way of going back.
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Ask the tree owner if they have documentary proof of each and every relationship? :-\
Try to check the tree, step by step, yourself? :-\
I wouldn't feel very confident accepting the claims. Unless your family was a prominent one, it is unlikely that they would leave any kind of paper trail back to the C13th.
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Where does the tree owner live? (The USA )
Ask the tree owner if they have documentary proof of each and every relationship? :-\
I wouldn't feel very confident accepting the claims. Unless your family was a prominent one, it is unlikely that they would leave any kind of paper trail back to the C13th.
Thanks Ruskie.
In fact that’s what I intend doing..., but I was trying to fish around here to get some relevant points of view.
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Hi Iain
even if you have a 'gateway' ancestor it still has to be checked out to verify.
I agree with Ruskie ;)
Ann 8)
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Thanks Ann ! I think you’ve given me the term needed for my contact letter..., “gateway ancestor.”
The documented proof going back to Rathlin looks pretty solid so all it would need is a private family letter at the time indicating the link.
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I'd love to ask them to prove this one
http://www.jesusevidence.org/gen.html
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I'd love to ask them to prove this one
http://www.jesusevidence.org/gen.html
WOW ! :)
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I hope you get a reply - let us know the outcome. ;D
(Love the link tedscout - think I've seen it before - I can't honsestly believe that anyone believes that)
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of course the first part wrong is linking themselves to a couple of fictional characters like adam and eve. after that its all a bit pointless ::) ::) ::)
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;D ;) Perth
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I feel like anything before the 1780's is fairly speculative.
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I feel like anything before the 1780's is fairly speculative.
Hi Cailean ! I’m afraid that many on here will disagree with you. Even me as a newbie to all this, I’m linked to a specialist friend (distant family) who has the Tyree census of 1776 and 79 and others as “old hat,” not to mention 1743 and 47 rental rolls plus the 1799 list of men liable to be balloted..., to mention but a few. And how about headstones ?
I’ll be getting back to my original question soon..., I’m under the weather with work ! In the meantime, I’ve had contact with that American family !! Really great person..., with an amusing story !
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Hmm I don't entirely agree. Yes those things may help in that specific area but they are speculative in many cases. They may suggest a certain outcome, they may even heavily insinuate, but the reality is that after a certain period of time it is only speculation and you can never be certain.
It obviously varies from area to area, I find the records in the east of Scotland are slightly better than those of the west when you get into the late 1700s, but overall there isn't a huge difference.
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I take it these lines are linked to Gilcrist McCurdy or a Pethrick of the Cairn McCurdy.
I'm guessing that your 4xGreat Grandfather was either Charles McCurdy son of Francis or one of the early Morrisons to move to the Campbeltown area from Rathlin after leaving Scotland in the mid-1660's.
Regardless, I'd really like to know your connection to Rathlin Island and could probably provide more accurate details of your family history.
I can almost guarantee that your relation got their information from Elmer McCurdy's Geneological [sic] History of the McCurdys.
Some of Elmer's work is VERY well researched. Unfortunately loads is based on Legend. I've found much basis in truth for many of the Rathlin families but some of his dates are "Out" by over 100 years!
Cheers,
Andy Keogh
PS I have traced some of my Irish lines back to 1627-ish in Ireland but some the parents were born in Scotland. Probate records were very helpful but, sadly, very few of my lines were rich enough to leave wills etc.
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I'd love to ask them to prove this one http://www.jesusevidence.org/gen.html
Wonderful, quite wonderful! I really enjoyed reading that, it's a glorious mishmash of fact and legend, including all the 'Kings of Scotland'. First I've heard that there have ever been any Kings of Scotland, only Kings of Scots. And as for the Stone of Destiny being in Edinburgh Castle, most unlikely. There's a block of locally carved Perthshire sandstone in there certainly - the Stone of Destiny? Don't think so!
Iain, leaving that comic website aside, all the advice to test everything yourself is absolutely right.
I learned that the hard way when I found my gr.gr.gr.grandfather on an Ancestry tree, complete with my gr.gr.gr.grandmother and some very detailed ancestors that I hadn't been able to trace at all. Only problem was that he was also complete with a totally different set of descendants, and must have been a really good swimmer to be in Antrim and New York at the same time. I did contact and ask if we could try and sort out the confusion, but got nowhere.
Hope it works better for you.
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Andy and Maggie..., thanks for your offer of support, I just might get back to you for help ! Lol !
Unfortunately, I’ve been having quite a lot of trouble with my Wood family from Canterbury and as such I’ve not had much time to go north..., so-to-speak.
In fact it's my maternal grandfather Malcolm Black who has his grandparents in Rathlin..., and it’s one of them who married a McCurdy.
http://rathlin-island.info/?q=node/46
In fact, I must give my apologies to the others for not mentioning that I’m in contact with the American family who have their McCurdy’s going back to 1270. And in fact, the person who started the tree is a young schoolboy, and everyone in his class had been given the task of creating a family tree. As such, with his Mum having her origins in Scotland..., both set about aiming for a “first-in-the-class.” A charming story and because of the background, one can’t be too critical about precision dating and names.
Nonetheless, the problem gets more hazier when his aunt got involved ! Obviously a keen genealogist ! (perhaps a little over-keen) Returning to their Ancestry tree today, I now find that even the Black family go back to John Black b1500. (and the exams are long-since finished..., lol !) And of course the McCurdy’s stay the same with Chief Gilkrist MaKurerdy 1425-1486, then another 5 generations to Somerled Lord of the Isles Ruari 1270-
Phew ! Think I’ll stay in London for a few more weeks ! ;)
Ps If you want, I can send you the tree !
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Hi Iain,
I actually run the website for Rathlin Island (now, badly) so it really is great to get in contact. I suspect you may be under 50 so my records don't include your parents, yet! (hint, hint)
If you have any grandparents or Great grandparents I can probably be of more help since even the Rathlin online database isn't as up-to-date as the master database.
Cheers,
Andy
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I actually run the website for Rathlin Island (now, badly) so it really is great to get in contact. I suspect you may be under 50 so my records don't include your parents, yet! (hint, hint)
If you have any grandparents or Great grandparents I can probably be of more help since even the Rathlin online database isn't as up-to-date as the master database.
Hi Andy. Great to know you and I must congratulate you on your site, must have taken years to build !
I’m a bit embarrassed for the time being as I’m extremely busy creating a new company, so I have very little time for genealogy. Funnily enough it’s in relation to my old regiment the Scots Guards. (1642) Lol !
I’d really like to get back to you on that offer, especially after questioning the source of this post. (the American family who are now back to the 13th century via Rathlin) But time’s not on my side for the moment.
Have a nice week end..., Iain.
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I'd say in England it's pretty okay back to the start of C of E registers, I'd one line shot straight back in that direction, but even so, not perfect,( in one generation there's an "either/or" so you can't even count that,) but those fanciful ones with oodles of nobility / royalty, and "My granda was the rightful heir to the Scottish throne..." at least amuse those who enjoy them.
Most can't honestly be sure long before 1800 unless there's both unusual surname and first names, and firm geographical location - and loads of documentation from independent sources, not "My aunt alice's grandma always said..." - yes?
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From my experience - I have one line back to late 16th century thanks to survival of church records - and to the help of a relative who happens to be a professional genealogist. Otherwise lines run out in the 18th century if I'm lucky. I do have a line going back to a 1612 birth which I haven't been able to substantiate beyond a family tree copied out of a lost family bible, but which was partly substantiated by the recent tenants of the house concerned. I've found another line quoted in an early edition of Burke's Landed Gentry which leads back pre-Conquest to someone living in 896: the old one of "we came over with William the Conqueror." Wonderful, great fun, romantic, and I would think 99.99% likely to be totally fictional.
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Hello all, I did find one Anc.tree which led me back to my best link yet ODIN
Residence...Valhalla ! Beat that !!!
Regards Alan
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Was that before or after he lived in Asgard ??
Regards
Malky
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Malky
Unfortunately that detail wasn't mentioned on the cencus report :o
Regards Alan
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Hi Ann ! You are up early ! :) Thanks !
I suppose I could have added that there are many well known families such as the Royals who have cast-iron trees and linking on to them could be one way of going back.
Unfortunately even with a substantive "gateway ancestor" the evidence should always be checked. I think it was the Mathew Pinsent episode of Who do you think you are that unrolled a genealogy scroll of his family tree linking him to the Royal family and through them to God.
In addition to that there was a very famous fraudster (Gustav Anjou) who produced fake family histories for his clients in the late 19th century period.
This ScotGen Blog has quite a bit of information about the various fakes out there
http://scotgen.blogspot.co.uk/2009/03/fake-family-histories-watch-out.html
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I have spent many happy hours untangling the consequences of a double hit - an almost certainly erroneous heraldic pedigree then picked up and widely propogated by many people as a result of an Anjou fraud.
The family - Copley - is often said "to trace its descent from Adam de Copley slain at York in 1070". The documentation is good back to the late 14th century, but the earliest source I can find for the element before that was produced by a member of the College of Heralds in 1630.
Anjou then provided a transatlantic link based amongst other things on a marriage at Kenilworth in 1628, supposedly from the parish records. The currently known parish records start after that date. That link is also geographically suspect.
The result is many on-line trees running back to 1070. None of them mention Anjou. They are frequently copied - I'd estimate I see another 15 or so versions appearing each year. And of course the nature of the internet is that the most widely published data "must be right"