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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: Seoras on Monday 23 January 12 00:09 GMT (UK)
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Anyone any idea on a date,1860s? Also does it say mother to Eleanor and Jane or June.
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Mid 1870s, George.
I'm not finding an Ann Pringle with daughters Eleanor and June/Jane, anywhere :P :P
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I am having the same trouble China,some possibles but none that fit exactly.Here is Eleanor who it would seem married a Mr.Sleeman.
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This given it has the exact same back,I believe to be Jane/June.Would you say they could have been taken at the same time.
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How about these guys, at Wellington Barracks where papa is a Serjeant:
1851
Edward Pringle, 42
Ann Pringle, 36
Edward Pringle, 7
Jane Ann Pringle, 5
Richard Thos Pringle, 2
Eleanor Pringle, 4 Mo
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So Jane is born in 1846, so she'd be about 25 or so in this photo? Does that look right?
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It doesn't does it? These are girls and they still have their hair down.
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Good find China,I think Jane looks the eldest for sure,but guessing a ladies age is something I am hopeless at ;D.They are not in brilliant condition,but with the names available I thought I would pick them up and put them on here.Someone may be related.
Finding them has been driving me nuts all evening.
Add on:I have to say though,they look like teenagers to me.
Add on to the add on.Yet all the names fit ???
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Hi you two :)
Not sure if this helps ~
Eleanor Pringle married Henry Albert Sleeman in Ripon in Dec q, 1883
gnu
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Just found that. So she'd be about 20ish, maybe early 20s when she married...so we need a birth around 1860.
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That would fit gnu,all three photos were taken in Yorkshire.I just can't find the family there though.
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If it's the right Eleanor then they're probably at Parkhurst in 1891
RG12/885/37/14
Looks like a second marriage for Henry. It has Eleanor b. c. 1851, Birdcage Walk*, London
I've tried various searches but don't have a good hit earlier - wonder if they were abroad if Dad was military - or even Scotland
* would fit with China's 1851 find - Wellington Barracks
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It does fit with the 1851 - Wellington Barracks was at the end of Birdcage Walk:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birdcage_Walk
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There are records on Chelsea Pensioner site for an Edward Pringle born 1810 Holy Island Belford,Northumberland.
He's a sergeant in the Coldstream Guards.
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Wondering if we might be able to go back a few years with the photos, China, Maybe 1868 ish, so Eleanor would be 17. Weren't those sleeves and hair just about coming in late 60s? Thought they're so 1870 ish, otherwise.
Haven't got my books at the mo so memory only!
Added - unless the person writing on the back had mistaken who they were - as often happens :-\
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33 is a bit late for marriage, especially a beauty like this....?
Red, red posts!
The corners are square, so pre 1875ish.
The sleeves and hair, sleeves are okay but the high chignon is a bit early...let me look....
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Just added to my post, China - wondering if the person who annotated had got the wrong people :-\
However, we know that Eleanor Pringle married Henry Sleeman in 1883 and it was the only EP/Sleeman marriage. Eleanor down as b. Birdcage Walk/Wellington Barracks 1851 ish.
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There are a couple of ladies late 60s at the Vaughan site with the hair up, not as high-on-top a braid as Eleanor but the style is definitely coming in.
There's one approx 1868 on the photographer's part of the site that shows an unfortunate young lady with what looks like a tortoise stranded on top of her head :P :P :P :P
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Jane got the short end of this pair of photos...hers looks like it's been cut & pasted onto the backing by a 4-year-old :P
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Is Jane showing a left-hand ring?? I think she has something, and the left hand is on display, not like Eleanor who is hiding hers.
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Is Jane showing a left-hand ring?? I think she has something, and the left hand is on display, not like Eleanor who is hiding hers.
I thought I saw something last night but wasn't sure as I'd not got any general light on. Here's a snip, adjusted and enlarged.
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Found them in 1861:
9 Castle Yard, Richmond
RG9/3674/46/2
Edward Pringle. 55. staff Sergeant, N Y Militia, b, Keyloe, Durham
Ann, w, 45, b. Greenside, Northumberland
Edward, s, unm, 17, clerk NE Railways, b. Newcastle, Nbld
Jane A, d, 14, house servant, b. -do-
Richard J, s, 12, b. London, Mdx
Ellen, d, 10, b. -do-
John, s, 7, b. Richmond, Yks
Elizabeth, d, 3, b. -do
The photos of the two girls were taken by a Richmond photographer.
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Still in Yorkshire in 1871:
Castle Yard, Richmond
RG10/4874/49/8
Edward Pringle. 65, Staff of N York Militia, b. Durham, <?>, Kyloe
Ann, w, 55, b. Durham, Greenside
Ellen, d, unm, 20, dressmaker, b. Mdx, Westminster
John, s, unm, 17, railway clerk, b. Yks, Richmond
Elizabeth, d, 13, scholar, b. -do-
Looks as if Jane was either married or elsewhere - maybe this is a clue that the photos were taken before the 1871 census :-\
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And in 1881, only Edward and Elizabeth:
36 Low Skellgate, ' Public Rooms', Ripon - next to Turks Head - could they have been staying there?
RG10/4318/14/22
Edward Pringle, widower, Pensioner Chelsea and Librarian, b. Holy Island, Durham (note - the North part of Northumberland was part of Co Durham until 1844)
Elizabeth, d, single, 23, b. Richmond, Yks
Eleanor/Ellen married in Ripon RD 2 years later
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Death of Ann Pringle:
Ann Pringle, aged 62
Dec q, 1875, Richmond,Yks, 9d, 444
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I think that this might be Jane in 1871:
Esplanade, Scarborough
RG10/4817/64/12
Household of John and Caroline Hutton
...
Jane A Pringle, servant, unm, 24, Ladies maid - Domestic, b. Northumberland, Newcastle
So photo most likely taken pre 1871 or the person annotating the backs has got the wrong family :-\
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Found them both in 1881!:
Nevills Bldings, Sunninghill, Windsor
RG11/1322/115/20
Jane Ann Pringle, hd, unm, 34, Dress Maker, b. Newcastle upon Tyne, Nbld
Ellen, sister, unm, 30, -do-, b. London
Henry Gillingham, lodger, unm, 25, joiner, b. Rochford, Esx
Henry East, lodger, unm, 25, joiner, b. Burford, Oxd
Frank Foulger, lodger, unm, 22, joiner, b. Whitechurch, Bucks
Hmm - what were they doing down there ::)
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I think Jane remains single:
1891
2 White Houses, Barefoot St, Ripon
RG12/3511/20/5
Jane A Pringle, hd, s, 44, Dressmaker, b. Newcastle on Tyne, Nbld
Minnie Pringle, niece, s, 17, b. York, Yks
Mary J Lawson, boarder, s, 40, postal clerk, b. Catterick, Yks
1901
2 Barefoot Street, Ripon
RG13/4042/40/22
Jane Ann Pringle, hd, s, 54, Dressmaker, b. Newcastle, Nbld
Minnie Pringle, niece, s, 24, -, b. York, Yks
The 1911 Free Index has a Jane Ann Pringle, 64, living in Ripon. I put in born Newcastle and this was the only one, so I assume it's her
She maybe moved to Devon to stay with sister, Eleanor Sleeman, or relatives (last census info for Eleanor was in Tavistock) ~
Death: Jane A Pringle, Jun q, 1921, Tavistock. Aged 75
I wonder what the ring was - or was the annotation correct?
Not sure what else there is to find ::)
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Blimey gnu,you've been busy.I saw China's comment but can't make my mind up if it's a ring or just a mark on the photo.Photos in Richmond,Pringle family with all the correct names in Richmond point to you being right.It's not a big place is it.Probably even smaller back then.
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I've hurt my ankle so I'm incommoded ::)
I was last in Richmond in 1971, George - went to an Auction. it's not very big at all compared with here.
I'm sure we have the right family but am wondering if the person writing the notes on the back got it all wrong. The ages don't match with late 1860- early 1870s piccies. I've had a good look in my books and they really smack of early 1870s - hair, clothes,pose, 3/4 image, etc. :-\
Have you tried looking up the photographers?
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Just skimming through this & it looks to me like Jane,Eleanor & Elizabeth taken during the 70's at various times.
jim
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So how do you account for the first one, Jim - labelled Ann Pringle, the mother. She died 1875, aged 62 :-\
It could be wrong labelling, as I've suggested, but she doesn't seem to fit in to the others' ages - b. 1846, 1851 and 1858 - ish
I'll go with Elizabeth (1858) but this one looks a bit too old for either of the older ones - they'd be early to mid 20s and not in mourning :-\
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Eleanor seems to have been born Westminster Dec Q 1850.
Jane Ann, Morpeth Sept Q 1847.
So they're 3 years apart. They look quite a bit younger in the photos, especially with the hair down. But this has to be the right family.
I think Jane is wearing a decorative ring.
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It could be a mourning ring.
The ages fit for 1870's but I agree the labelling on the first one is wrong.
jim
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I thought it might be a mourning ring but, if it is, then it must be Elizabeth (b.c. 1858) and not Jane (b. c. 1847) as mother died in 1875 - Jane would have been late 20s and the photo is not of a girl of that age.
As you can see from the census info that I put up this morning, Jane never married.
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We've solved the original question anyway....it's Jane not June :)
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I can't see anything wrong in this given their ages & the dates of the photos.
jim
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I like your thinking, Jim. That would fit closer than Ann...can't see a sixtyish woman in that photo. Good job.
I'm sorry for all the rotten things I've said about you ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Yes - I came round to that conclusion about the Jane/Ann over dinner - :)
However, Eleanor b. Dec q 1850 - she was younger than 20 in that photo - so it's either not her or it's earlier, as China and I thought in the early hours.
Could it be another one of Elizabeth?
gnu
added - Joseph Raine, aged 30, b. Reeth, was in Richmond on the 1871 as a photgraphic artist. In 1861, he was with his widowed mother in Reeth, as a carpenter!
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It could be another one of Elizabeth but I suppose we'll never know.
jim
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Good thinking on the renaming Jim,and thank you and gnu and China for you input.Watching you all work it out has been very entertaining ;D
gnu I hope your ankle is on the mend.
China and Jim,I am so glad your relationship is back on track,should I buy a hat ;D ;D ;D
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It won't last, George. Jim can't behave himself long enough ;D ;D ;D
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Some info on the father.
Edward Pringle was born 1810 in the parish of Holy Island Northumberland.
He was attested for the Coldstream Guards at Doncaster on the 12th January aged 23 years and 6 months for a bounty of £2/10 shillings.He was a labourer and single at the time and is described as being 6' 2" tall with light brown hair and blue/grey eyes.
He served in the Coldstream Guards for 21 years spending 4 years of that time in Canada.In 1836 he was promoted to corporal and in 1841 to sergeant.
In 1852 he expressed a wish to volunteer for the North Yorkshire Rifle Regiment of Militia and was granted a discharge from the Colstream Guards in 1854.His intended place of residence was Richmond.
He served in the North Yorks Militia until 1879 and was granted a discharge aged almost 70 due to age and infirmity.He was granted a state pension due to his service in the Coldstream Guards and was a pay master sergeant at the time of his discharge.
Should a related Pringle happen across this thread,do get in touch,I will be only too happy to forward all the relevent documents.
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Awesome, George!
Where was he in Canada?
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Some info on the father.
Edward Pringle was born 1810 in the parish of Holy Island Northumberland.
Hi George
Just a small point but important if you are going to go further with this family.
I think that I said on one of the census listings that Kyloe and Holy island (amongst other parishes) were part of Co. Durham until 1844, so you won't find a baptism for him by looking in Northumberland.
Images of the original Bishops Transcripts for Holy Island are here:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-12047-36585-16?cc=1309819&wc=11540327
Obviously, they're not indexed but you can have hours of fun flicking through them ;D
You can speed search by just putting in a page number in the box and pressing <CR>
gnu
PS - the more I look at those two photos, side by side, the more I'm convinced that they are both of the same girl - probably Elizabeth
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Where was he in Canada?
Apologies China,I didn't spot this,he was in Quebec.
What do you and gnu think about this for a marriage.Newcastle 30 September 1844.
Edward Pringle to Ann Roxborough.His father was Richard Pringle and hers John Roxborough.Edward named two of his sons Richard and John.
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Could these be his parents and Eleanor's grandparents.Bearing in mind Edward was born in Holy Island.
Holy Island 1841.
Richard Pringle 70 Weaver
Eleanor 60
Ann 30
Eleanor 20
Elizabeth 20
Edward 6
This Edward must be the son of one of the girls,looking at the ages most likely Ann.
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Eleanor's mother Ann died in Richmond in 1875 aged 62.1881 census Edward is in Ripon aged 75 with youngest daughter Elizabeth.He is a Chelsea Pensioner and librarian.They are living in 'public rooms'?
I think Edward died in Ripon in 1888,his birth is a bit out but I think it must be him.
Eleanor and brother Richards births.One in Wellington barracks and one in St.George's barracks.
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A thought on how the photos came to be down in the southwest.
Eleanor's brother Richard Thomas Pringle married Mary Jane Wells,the daughter of Thomas Wells,a butcher and his wife Jane.All the Wells family were born and lived in Richmond.They married in York 5 March 1870 where Richard was a printer and copywriter.They are still there in 1891 but in 1901 Richard and all but the eldest son Thomas are in Swansea where he is still a printer.Children with him are:-
George Cecil 29
Gertrude 27
Olive 26
William 25
Bertram 20
Ethel 17
Wife Mary Jane died in Swansea in 1897 and Richard in Swansea in 1914.Swansea is about 40 miles from where I bought the photos,so I am guessing they came from him or one of his children.
Another possibility is Ann on the 1841 census.There is an Ann Pringle who fits age and place of birth wise living In Cheltenham 1861,this is even closer,but my money is on Richard's family.
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Didn't spot them in a Canadian census...shame, that would have been cool :P
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Hi George
I see that you've broken your pre-Burns Night purdah - are you now going to pipe in the haggis or give a toast to the lasses (think that's China and me)!
http://www.rabbie-burns.com/the_supper/index.cfm.html
The 1841 census info HO107/318/5/17/2 looks very likely since the names repeat in Edward's family. They are actually living in Fenham which is on the mainland opposite Holy Island but part of that parish.
Map link here and a photo looking across from Holy Island to Fenham and the mainland that I took in 2010 is attached
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0jyf/
We pass close by fairly often on our way from here (Newcastle) to the North West.
This all ties in with what I found in my replies # 21 to #27, which includes the census details that you've listed, Ann's death and the subsequent movements of the daughters. Note that on the 1881 in Ripon they were staying in public rooms next door to the Turks Head. These rooms might well belong to the hostelry! This is all a bit Jane Austen-ish but a number of decades later!
An alternative reason for the photos being in the South West is that we find that Eleanor and her family move from the Isle of Wight to Henry Sleeman's birthplace of Tavistock (found in 1911 free index search) and Jane dies there in 1921 (see my reply #27). Also, Eleanor Sleeman died Dec q, 1926, Tavistock, aged 75. This, I would suggest, is more likely since the inscriptions on the backs of the photos (even if wrong) referred to Ann, Jane and Eleanor and to Eleanor's marriage to a Sleeman and there is no mention of the brothers.
It might also be worth chasing up Elizabeth after the 1881 - she could have migrated south westwards as well!
Added
It looks as if Elizabeth Pringle might have died the year after the 1881 census:
Death - Elizabeth Pringle June q, 1882, Ripon 9a 58, aged 24
gnu
(Just noticed the time - far far too early!)
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A bit more:
On the censuses, Jane Ann's birth is given consistently as Newcastle. I think that this is more likely than the Morpeth one that China found:
Jane Ann Pringle, June q, 1846, Newcastle upon Tyne, 25 376
Also this, which might have implications for the marriage that you found - the eldest son:
Edward Pringle birth reg Mar q, 1844, Newcastle upon Tyne 25 335
I see that they married Sept 1844!
Ann Pringle (nee Roxborough), was born Greenside circa 1816 according to the census info but circa 1813, according to her death. Greenside was just across the Tyne from Newcastle. . It was in the parish of Ryton, Co. Durham and the Bishops Transcripts are given below.
I've had a quick look but don't see a baptism so far.
BTs for Ryton are here:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11769-47107-42?cc=1309819&wc=11540372
BTs for Newcastle All Saints (1836-1845) are here - not sure if they include marriages but could include baptisms of the older children:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11837-21858-79?cc=1309819&wc=11540202
1845-1856 here:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-11808-78746-84?cc=1309819&wc=11540206
BTs for Holy Island are here:
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-267-12047-36585-16?cc=1309819&wc=11540327
gnu
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and a bit more:
I think that this is Ann Roxborough and her parents and sibs in 1841:
Belsay Inn, Belsay, Castle Ward, Northumberland
HO107/837/20/4/4
John Roxborough, 50, Inn keeper
Ann, 50
Thomas, 30, ag lab
Robert, 15, ag lab
Ann, 20
Isabella, 15
Elizabeth, 14
Jane, 12
Mary, 9
/Thomas Robson, 20, post boy
William Potts, 20, ag lab
All down as b. Northumberland
gnu
Just been having a read of Edward's service record - he was 6ft 2 ins, grey eyes and light brown hair - but changes to blue eyes a grey hair when he was 70 :)
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added - Joseph Raine, aged 30, b. Reeth, was in Richmond on the 1871 as a photgraphic artist. In 1861, he was with his widowed mother in Reeth, as a carpenter!
I found this a while ago but forgot about the Harrogate one and look at this:
Peter Skeolan (of the Harrogate photo) in Leeds in 1871:
1 Commercial Street, Leeds
RG10/4568/78/10
Peter Skeolan, 54, Painter and photographer, b. Ireland
Not found so far in 1861 or 1881
However, I've found this:
Lancaster Gazette, Wed 16 Oct 1889
Suicide of an Artist at Southport:
On Wednesday morning an inquest was held at the Town Hall, Southport, .....on the body of Peter Paul Skeolan, an artist, who died on Sunday night, from the effects of laudanum. On the previous Friday afternoon, deceased purchased half an ounce of laudanum at the shop of Mr Ball....Informing the assistant that he was suffering from neuralgia. This he took on Sunday night at his lodgings, 4 Hawesside Street. On Tuesday, Dr Baildon made a post mortem examination, when it was found that deceased had been suffering from fatty degeneration of the heart, in consequence of which the laudanum took greater effect on him. A verdict was returned to the effect that he committed suicide from opium poisoning while in a state of temporary insanity.
And this much earlier ~
Liverpool Mercury, Feb 15, 1859
Love and Suicide
The attempt made on his own life by Baron de Chastellain, at the Eight Bells, Commercial Hotel, Cheltenham..................Mr Peter Skeolan, photgraphic artist, stated that deceased had made proposals to him for the hand of his daughter .............letters were produced and read, etc., etc.
Reports of this in other newspapers also. A report of said daughter's marriage in Newcastle in 1867 in The Leeds Mercury.
It's worth joining a library to get all this info!
gnu
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Wonderful stuff gnu,laudanum,public rooms,asking for hands,as you say very Jane Austen.I noticed the eldest two children were born Newcastle so I think that 1844 marriage is a safe bet.Well done on finding Ann Roxborough,I went through every sort of combination of Roxborough and gave up due to fatigue ;D
As to where the photos came from,I went to see the vendor this morning to see if she could have bought them in the Tavistock area.She thinks Taunton or possibly an antiques fair at Shepton Mallett,so you are looking good in your deduction Sherlock. ;)
Oh and I will drink a toast to the lassies (gnu and chinakay) who have prepared this feast after I have addressed the haggis. ;D ;D ;D
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I don't think we want any laudanum though :-X
George - if you are serious about finding descendants, I've found at least two trees on Ancestry that you might like to investigate and send a message to tree owner maybe.
I used Eleanor Pringle b. 1851, London and father Edward.
gnu
PS - it looks as if Richard Pringle had a son called John Roxburgh Pringle circa 1873.
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PS - it looks as if Richard Pringle had a son called John Roxburgh Pringle circa 1873.
Bingo gnu :).I will have a look at those trees,I expect they would like some photos of their ancestors,I know I would,I only have two dating from the 1800s so far.
I have a slight Isle of Wight connection in that my GG grandfather's only brother died there in 1911,coincidentally he was also an army pensioner.
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It seems to be the same person with three different trees - I think he's descended from Richard. There's not a lot of info on his tree but you could direct him to this thread - he'll get it all and the kitchen sink ;D ;D ;D
gnu
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It seems to be the same person with three different trees - I think he's descended from Richard. There's not a lot of info on his tree but you could direct him to this thread - he'll get it all and the kitchen sink ;D ;D ;D
Hi gnu,would that be the Richard Thomas,died Swansea 1914.
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I think so. From what I saw, they moved to Swansea sometime between 1891 and 1901. He married Mary Jane Wells in 1870.
gnu
Ps - Maybe it's daughter Olive Pringle that's the connection. She's down as marrying Walter Williams :) He's also mistakenly got Eleanor and Ellen as two separate people.
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Righto,well we can narrow the time they moved down.In york 1891 and Mary Jane died Swansea 1897.Will have a look later I have to pop and skin a haggis. ;D
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I've messaged them gnu and urged them onto RC.They were only on site a week ago so fingers crossed.All we can do know is wait and see if they come along and collect their family.
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Incredible to see the photos, my great, great grandfather was Edward Pringle, and we are the Swansea branch of the family.
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Hi kyloe and welcome to RootsChat,I'm glad you found the site.Do let me know via email if you would like the original photos,I will be only too happy to send them on.
George.
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Thank you and to all that helped in the research, I can't believe how quickly this has all been found.
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HI just stumbled on this thread I'm the direct descendant of Richard and Martin Pringle of Holy Island, then Alnwick, Northumberland, just gathering bits as I go,all the family seems to be from Nortumberland, Durham,and further back Keith Banffshire,Scotland, anyone can fill.me in on the missing pieces I would love to hear from you,I was actually born in London, the older generation of my family came down from Durham in 1926, to Derbyshire,so wish I'd asked more questions, hope to hear from you Jo x
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Blimey joflowo, this one is going back about a year. There is a lot of info on the thread that I think you will find useful. As to the photos, I gave to them to kyloe I think. I will look and see if I still have the original scans.
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I'm slow at this haha a year good going love the work you've all put in x x x x x