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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Lanarkshire => Topic started by: Forfarian on Saturday 21 January 12 15:57 GMT (UK)
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I'd be interested in any evidence to link together the various families named Waddell (Waddel, Wadel, Wadell, Waddle etc) in Shotts in the 18th century.
James Waddell and Christian Bryce were in Easter Baton, and had five children: William 1765, Janet 1767, James 1770-1788, John 1773, Christian 1775-1825.
John Waddell and Mary Cowan were in Newhouse/Sighthill/Springfield and had 12 children between 1804 and 1831. Their eldest son was James, and their second daughter was Christian. John's age in the 1841 census was 65. I would be interested in anything to support or refute the theory that Mary Cowan's husband was the son of Christian Bryce.
William Waddell and Agnes Thomson were in Mains of Fortissat. They had two known sons, James 1792 and John 1800. In 1841 William was living at Redmire with his son John and family, and his age was given as 75. He was buried in Shotts in 1843, age given as 78. I would be interested in anything to support or refute the theory that Agnes Thomson's husband was the son of Christian Bryce.
James Waddell and Alison Gramare (could this be Graham? And in her son's death certificate it is given as Crombie) were in Mountcow, Shotts, and had six sons: William 1781, James 1783-1858, Peter 1786-1858, John 1789, David 1792, Alexander 1796/7. Is this a second marriage of the widower of Christian Bryce, or a different James Waddell altogether?
Also, are the following baptisms, both from Shotts Parish Register, two listings for the same child, or two different children?
First: 1789 James Waddel in Mont Cow and Gramare his lawful married spouse had a Son born there upon the 10th July and Baptized Named John Waddel.
Second: 1789 James Waddel in Monknow and Helen Cromar spouse had a child born the 18th July and named John.
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I have some but not all MIs of Shotts kirkyard.
James Waddell, Mountgow & his wife Alison Cromby. Their son Peter died 2nd December 1858 aged 72 years. (His wife Isabella Thomson died 15th December 1901 aged 93 years. Their sons Peter, died 15th June 1915 aged 72 years & William died 11th March 1928 aged 86 years).
In the next grave -
In memory of James Waddell, Mountgow, Shotts who died 1904. His widow Margaret Sommerville Marshall died 1926 aged 86 years. His daughter Mary Isabella Sommerville died 1885. His son James, Stenton, St Monan’s Fife died 1906. His daughter Elizabeth Anne died 26th December 1959.
Also, a picture that you will already have no doubt.
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Thank you. I didn't have either the inscriptions or the photo.
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At least the MI confirms the name as Cromby (Crombie), always something.
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At least the MI confirms the name as Cromby (Crombie), always something.
Yes. That is very useful. Though how the clerk made 'Crombie' into 'Gramare' will remain a mystery to me.
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Hello Forfarian,
I saw the name Waddell in your post. I'm not all that familiar with Scotland's geography so forgive me if I'm not even in the ball park of Shotts. I have a Mary Waddell born 16 Aug 1836 in New Monkland, Lanarkshire in my family tree. Her father was James Waddell, 1801-1873 and her mother Elizabeth (1805-1858). She married a John Marshall 10 Dec 1858 in Stirlingshire. Does she fit anywhere in the Waddells that you know?
Just curious,
Nan
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Hi Nan
This Mary Waddell was my 4th cousin twice removed. I know quite a lot about her family, but I didn't know whom she had married. Do you have any more information about her descendants? I'm happy to exchange notes.
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Hello Forfarian,
My relationship to Mary Waddell is tenuous at best. She was the mother-in-law of my great aunt. I'm not sure how much info you would like. I do have the names of her children, census records, d of d. I also have information on her son Robert who married my great aunt and the names of their children. If you want all the information I have, let me know and I'll send it to you. I type rather slowly so it may take me a few days.
I also remembered that I have a Ann Waddle born in 1761 in Cadder Lanarkshire (not related I believe to the Mary above. She married a Matthew Smellie 4 Apr 1782. What are the chances that there is a distant relationship there as well?
Kind regards, Nan
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I'll PM you.
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I did a look up for Ann Waddle on Family Search and did find her children with Matthew Smellie in the IGI.
I have also found lots of DoB'sfor other relatives that I hadn't had before. Thanks again.
Nan
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So it looks like this is a very old post, but I'd be keen to hear if there have been any updates. Christian Bryce (born 1734) and James Waddell (born circa 1737), are my ancestors 7 generations removed. I guess that makes them my great, great, great, great, great grandparents. But I am finding it hard to pin down the birth, death and parents of James Waddell. There appear to be quite a few in that general area of Scotland at around the same time and same age.
I think it is most likely to be James Waddell, son of William Waddell, born or baptised 08/05/1737 in Shotts. But that is just a guess. On various other "trees" there seem to be at least 2 other James Waddells connected to Christian Bryce. But as there is no marriage record for Christian and James (no existing records from Kirk of Shotts in those years) all I have is a birth/baptism record of all 5 children listed on one page. That would seem to indicate that it was written much later - perhaps by someone keen to preserve the information even though the records were missing. Or maybe all 5 children were baptised together years later for some reason unbeknown to me.
One of the James Waddells that has been attached to Christian on another tree is said to be the son of William Daniel Waddell and Janet Fleming (Fleeming). But I don't think that is likely as when I check the records on ScotlandsPeople, they only had one child, Alexander, who was born the year that their son James was supposedly born - different months so not twins. Then another one has Christian's spouse listed as James Waddell son of Robert Waddell and Marion Walker. But this James Waddell seems to have been born in a more well-to-do family, and unlikely to have been a tenant at Easter Baton farm.
What I would like to see is a nicely organised family tree of all these Waddells and how they relate to one another. Wouldn't that be great? But without further information, I am finding myself going around in circles trying to identify which James Waddell belongs to the Bryce line. So if anyone has any further information I'd be really keen to hear it. Thank you.
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In response to the question;
Also, are the following baptisms, both from Shotts Parish Register, two listings for the same child, or two different children?
First: 1789 James Waddel in Mont Cow and Gramare his lawful married spouse had a Son born there upon the 10th July and Baptized Named John Waddel.
Second: 1789 James Waddel in Monknow and Helen Cromar spouse had a child born the 18th July and named John.
I can't see any of those records at all on Scotlands People. All I can see for 1789 is:
WADDELL, JAMES; JAMES WADDELL/JANET STUART FR1508 (FR1508) M 19/10/1789 644/1 180 214 Glasgow
WADDELL, JAMES; JAMES WADDELL/ELISABETH GRAY FR1513 (FR1513) M 07/12/1789 644/1 180 223 Glasgow
WADDELL, JAMES; JOHN WADDELL/JANET BLAIR FR252 267 (FR267) M 19/11/1789 495/ 20 31
Cumbernauld
So where do you get these other records from?
thanks,
Melanie
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In response to the question;
Also, are the following baptisms, both from Shotts Parish Register, two listings for the same child, or two different children?
First: 1789 James Waddel in Mont Cow and Gramare his lawful married spouse had a Son born there upon the 10th July and Baptized Named John Waddel.
Second: 1789 James Waddel in Monknow and Helen Cromar spouse had a child born the 18th July and named John.
I can't see any of those records at all on Scotlands People.
Were you searching for Waddell with a double L? Because they are on Scotland's People with a single L.
I usually search for Wad*l* because that picks up most of the spelling variations.
As for whether they are the same person, I think they probably are two records of one person, because both are in Mountcow, by one of its myriad spellings.
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So it looks like this is a very old post, but I'd be keen to hear if there have been any updates. Christian Bryce (born 1734) and James Waddell (born circa 1737), are my ancestors 7 generations removed. I guess that makes them my great, great, great, great, great grandparents. But I am finding it hard to pin down the birth, death and parents of James Waddell. There appear to be quite a few in that general area of Scotland at around the same time and same age.
That is exactly the problem. And there are probably others whose baptism records have not survived.
I think it is most likely to be James Waddell, son of William Waddell, born or baptised 08/05/1737 in Shotts. But that is just a guess.
It's possible. I can't quite make out the name of where his father was, but I am sure it's not Mountcow or Easter Baton so it's anyone's guess. See attached screenshot.
On various other "trees" there seem to be at least 2 other James Waddells connected to Christian Bryce.
Never believe online trees. You cannot rely on them being correct. They can be useful pointers for research, but if they contradict one another you can only be sure that at least one of them is wrong.
One of the James Waddells that has been attached to Christian on another tree is said to be the son of William Daniel Waddell and Janet Fleming (Fleeming). But I don't think that is likely as when I check the records on ScotlandsPeople, they only had one child, Alexander, who was born the year that their son James was supposedly born - different months so not twins.
I agree. (Where did 'Daniel' come from? There is no record on Scotland's People of any Wil* Dan* W*d*l*) William W*d*l* and J*n*t* Fl*m*n* had two recorded children; Mary, baptised in Kilsyth in 1723 and Alexander, baptised in Glasgow in 1734. As you say, there is no record of a son James, so unless you can track down and evaluate the source of that bit of information, don't trust it.
Then another one has Christian's spouse listed as James Waddell son of Robert Waddell and Marion Walker. But this James Waddell seems to have been born in a more well-to-do family, and unlikely to have been a tenant at Easter Baton farm.
I can nail that one at least. James Waddell of Airdriehill, son of Robert Waddell of Stanrigg and Marion Walker, baptised in 1737, married Janet McLean, daughter of James McLean of Medrox and Janet Duncan.
What I would like to see is a nicely organised family tree of all these Waddells and how they relate to one another. Wouldn't that be great?
Yes. I've been trying to do that for decades.
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Forfarian,
Why don't you add the image to the deciphering board as some of those text contributors are excellent?
Annie
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From the record of James Waddell, son of William Waddell, born or baptised 08/05/1737 in Shotts, it looks like he was "in Suirpty". I bought an old ordnance survey map to look for possible matches, but haven't located anything so far. The closest I could find was "smithy" which I think relates to where the blacksmith or other -smith trade was probably located.
I use W*d*l* and other variations when searching, so that I get all the possible spelling variations.
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"What I would like to see is a nicely organised family tree of all these Waddells and how they relate to one another. Wouldn't that be great?
Yes. I've been trying to do that for decades."
Do you have a big wall chart with all the branches that are known listed?
I downloaded all the WADDELLS, with all the variant spellings from 1700-1800 from Scotlands People (just the search results, not the images) and put them into a spreadsheet. I didn't do all 96 pages of results, just those from Lanark, West Lothian and a few other parishes. I am hoping to put them in some kind of order that might help find some trees.
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Could it be swinstie? with a different spelling? There's a Swinstie Rd in Cleland on google maps which is close to where Swinstie is located on the Old Ordnance map. Perhaps it was written as suinsty with the second s looking like a p?
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Do you have a big wall chart with all the branches that are known listed?
No.
The late Gavin Waddell's book, A History of the Waddells of Scotland, devotes a chapter to the various Waddell families in Shotts, but even he was unable to find or even suggest any links between them.
I downloaded all the WADDELLS, with all the variant spellings from 1700-1800 from Scotlands People (just the search results, not the images) and put them into a spreadsheet. I didn't do all 96 pages of results, just those from Lanark, West Lothian and a few other parishes. I am hoping to put them in some kind of order that might help find some trees.
You're not the first to do that :)
It will be very interesting to see if you come to any different conclusions from others who have done the same sort of thing.
The critically important thing to remember is that not all baptism and marriage records have survived, so we can't exclude the possibility that the baptism of Christian Bryce's husband is one of the missing ones.
Also, for instance, The first recorded child of James Waddell and Christian Bryce was baptised in 1765, but there is no record of their marriage, so we can't know whether the five recorded children are the whole family, or just the five youngest of a larger family, and this has obvious implications for the date of the marriage, the dates of birth of James and Christian, and possible names of parents. Nor can we be certain that any hypothetical older children were born in Shotts rather than in some other parish.
See the attached screenshot for details of how defective the Shotts parish register is.
Yes, Swinstie is very likely.
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So, the answer is... I may never know. How disappointing. It's a shame that the records didn't survive, and those that did were so poorly recorded. Still, it has been an interesting rabbit hole to go down.
Have others posted their results of searching for Waddells anywhere?
Do you know where I can get hold of a copy of Gavin Waddell's book? It doesn't seem to be available for purchase anywhere, or in a library outside of the UK.
Thanks for your knowledgeable reply. I appreciate fnding out what there is, or is not, to find out about my ancestors.
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So, the answer is... I may never know. How disappointing. It's a shame that the records didn't survive, and those that did were so poorly recorded. Still, it has been an interesting rabbit hole to go down.
I'm afraid so. The 18th century BMD records in Shotts are particularly poor. But something else might turn up - estate papers, for instance.
Have others posted their results of searching for Waddells anywhere?
If they have, I am not aware of them.
Do you know where I can get hold of a copy of Gavin Waddell's book? It doesn't seem to be available for purchase anywhere, or in a library outside of the UK.
It was never for sale in bookshops. Gavin had it published privately and gave away copies to people he knew would be interested, or who had contributed to it. As far as I know, he had none left by the time of his death.
Thanks for your knowledgeable reply. I appreciate fnding out what there is, or is not, to find out about my ancestors.
Do keep looking - you never know what might turn up.