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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: Maggie. on Sunday 15 January 12 22:03 GMT (UK)
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A short time ago there was a thread that grew from modest beginnings into a lively, intelligent and informed discussion on certain aspects of the ancient history of Lancashire, specifically the Forest of Pendle. It proved to be a very well supported thread.
But it ran it's course.
After a great deal of deliberation I have decided to start another history thread, this time under a less constraining title and to start us off, here is a font - or perhaps it is not a font. We were discussing what it may or may not have been here:-
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0jqi/ page 4, #38
Perhaps the discussion about the font can continue, or perhaps not. Let's see what happens and where the thread takes us. We don't have to stick with Pendle Forest, but please remember that as we are on the Lancashire board our talk must be about historical aspects of this fine and beautiful County of the Red Rose.
Maggie :)
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Thank you Maggie :)
I was so interested in the previous thread that I even got a book out from the library about the Roman occupation of Lancashire.
I love that "font" and it certainly looks like one. I seem to remember reading somewhere ::) that the Asherton family donated one to Downham or Newchurch? and I was just wondering what would have happened to the previous one. - if there had been one. Blowed if I can find where I read this.
Mo
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Nice to see you in here Mo :)
I don't know about a donated font in Downham, although logically a donated font would be in that village rather than Newchurch as the family seat is in the village. The font in the field is in the Sabden Fold area so it's a distance from Downham, unless they lugged it over Pendle Hill. At Newchurch there is the usual type of font that I assume is Victorian but I would have to check, but also there is another on the floor in a corner. This one was apparently found a few years ago either in a barn or a field - I can check up on this at the next club meeting - but it looks very like the one in my photo, which of course is still in the field. So there could be two.
Small correction - 'Asherton' is 'Assheton'
http://www.thornber.net/famhist/htmlfiles/ashton.html
Maggie
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What type of stone is it made of. Probably not Saxon, too shallow. http://www.historyfish.net/abbeys/abbeyparts/cox_fonts.html
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Hi YT - I'm first guessing at a type of sandstone but again I will have to check.
Interesting link, thanks.
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If its sandstone then the water will soak into it and when there is a frost, being exposed, it will blow off a layer of stone, Could be that it was deeper but the sides have eroded.
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Just a thought, rather than a font could it be some kind of grindstone or millstone? Although if it's sandstone it would probably be too soft. How big is it Maggie?
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If its sandstone then the water will soak into it and when there is a frost, being exposed, it will blow off a layer of stone, Could be that it was deeper but the sides have eroded.
It's very eroded, YT, we could see no trace of any carving around the sides. It struck us that it was shallow.
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Just a thought, rather than a font could it be some kind of grind stone? Although if it's sandstone it would probably be too soft. How big is it Maggie?
Hi Jan and welcome :)
The possibility of it being a grindstone was also considered - we have examples of sandstone ones. I would say it is around 18" diameter - the link to the old thread above takes you took another photo and there is a glove next to it, which gives a bit of scale. Unbelievably none of us had a measure to hand as we came across it unintentionally. Once the fields have dried out sufficiently I intend to re-visit it for a better look.
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I think it is too concave to be a grindstone, they need to be flatter so that the milled grain can work its way out slowly. Although, as in this link, they can be concave if the top stone. Also if it is sandstone it would not be the ideal material to make a millstone. If it was a grindstone for sharpening things with it would have an hole in the middle, come to think of it, a millstone would as well. I suppose if it had a slight concavity when it was left out that could have been deepened over the years by erosion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millstone
Can you dig down under it and see the shape and size of it, also some markings may have been preserved by the soil.
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Can you dig down under it and see the shape and size of it, also some markings may have been preserved by the soil.
It is only slightly buried and we were able to move it sufficiently to see underneath, although it's very heavy. Nothing was revealed.
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So, fairly shallow in depth, could be just an odd shaped piece of rock :( Although it looks too symmetrical to be naturally occurring.
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This interesting lump of sandstone has been around our field/garden since we came here in 1979. It was only a few years ago that I re-discovered it, looked at it closely and wondered if it was some sort of grindstone. Another possibility that has been suggested is that it had been a wooden post support. I probably have a better pic. but I must sign off for tonight.
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What a great thread,Maggie,it is so interesting,better than any history book
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I couldn't agree more Janette.
Cheers
KHP
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Really interesting thread, Maggie. Thank you.
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HP and Jeanette - thanks for saying that ...... I was not at all sure whether to start another thread so I'm glad there is still a bit of mileage in this.
Just seen this:-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=576184.new
Interesting for any archaeology buffs. I'd like to have a look.
Red - thanks Barbara :)
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Very happy to see you back with your local history hat on again Maggie.
Perhaps all we Lancastrians should be out there finding something to add to this thread.
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There must be some very interesting places not too far away from you, Sue .... such as Preston and Ribchester?
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This interesting lump of sandstone has been around our field/garden since we came here in 1979. It was only a few years ago that I re-discovered it, looked at it closely and wondered if it was some sort of grindstone. Another possibility that has been suggested is that it had been a wooden post support. I probably have a better pic. but I must sign off for tonight.
It could be a metate. http://www.visual-arts-cork.com/prehistoric/cupules.htm
http://youtu.be/TEnIcqRiDQA
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Could it be a stoup, the shallow dish that holy water used to be kept in at the doorway to a church? The attached picture shows one from Ireby in Cumbria.
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YT - again thanks for interesting info. So a metate would be a quern stone and used for grinding? - never heard that name before.
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Alpine - a stoup is a possibility isn't it? Mine is round and very substanial - possibly bigger than the one in your photo, but one thing that goes against my stone being a font is its shallow hole.
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Here's one more similar to the "font in the field". This one's from Penrhosllugwy, Anglesey. Yours is too small to be a font - too shallow and too small in diameter - imagine holding a screaming baby over that and not pouring water on your shoes!
Apparently stoups were removed from some churches in 16th century because they were considered "superstitious". One in Ludlow was found being used for a chicken water container in 1912 and reinstated in the church
Ooops picture's come out a bit big!
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That looks like mine doesn't it? The good thing is it gives a bit of credence to the possibility of a shrine or the early church that pre-dated the present day St Mary's in Newchurch. There has always been a suggestion amongst older inhabitants of the village that the original site was in the bottom of the valley, not on the hillside where it now is. The present position of the stoup/font is in that valley.
Wonderful to be learning all these things.
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Wonderful to be learning all these things.
Yep, I never knew that the holy water thingy was called a stoup until today :D
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I would say it is around 18" diameter - the link to the old thread above takes you took another photo and there is a glove next to it, which gives a bit of scale. Unbelievably none of us had a measure to hand as we came across it unintentionally. Once the fields have dried out sufficiently I intend to re-visit it for a better look.
Are you sure it is only 18" diameter, it looks bigger to me. If it was only 18"dia, and of shallow depth I would expect it to be light enough to be carried by 2 men and even lifted by one. The other stone, from your garden is probably a metate, this one, the original of the thread, is I hope a font given that it seems to have been shaped into a circle externally.
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Good evening - so glad you have resurrected this topic under a wider umbrella, Maggie! Will now go and read the posts so far so that I know what's going on. I gather there is discussion about the size of the 'font' which I look forward to reading.
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I think I have under estimated the size :-[
On the previous 'font' photo at the link on page one to the other thread, there is a ladies glove. When measured against the font it gives a diameter of approx. 24" and a depth of 11/12" (the 'font' is only buried to topsoil level). From memory it is hollowed out to a depth of approx. 4". It is slightly squared off from the circular on one side - right hand edge of pic. on page 1, as though it could possibly have been shaped to fit against a wall.
We did manage to move it in order to see underneath but there is no way 2 men could have lifted it. I feel annoyed with myself that we didn't take full notes on its dimensions but we found this on a field walk with another agenda, in other words this was an added extra. I shall return to it as soon as the mud around here dries up a bit.
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You are most welcome, GS. I shall look forward to your observations :)
It could be relevant to repeat that there is a supposed shrine to St Chad within fairly short distance of the present day position of this artifact. There are also some huge and as yet unidentified stones on the hillside to the south east at a distance of some 2-3 miles. The earliest reference to a church at Newchurch in Pendle is 1250, but there is some circumstantial evidence that there was a much earlier church, not necessarily on the site of the existing one.
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Hi Maggie,
- the stone picture you attached to this thread, from your garden - I notice one end is almost straight - unless it is the angle of the photo - so does that lend itself to being a stoup - as in the first one pictured by Alpinecottage? Or having once been standing on the 'straight' surface?
Very interesting information on that thread also YT. Could be a Metate couldn't it!
Wiggy
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Many of the early Christian shrines in this country are located on pagan sacred sites, in the same way that churches were often set atop pagan mounds. In this way, the church was able to combine christianity and allow the people to keep some of their old pagan customs, which were then given a Christian veneer. The pagans considered wells and springs to be sacred sites, and for this reason it is not uncommon to find early Christian shrines close to these. So, if you know of any springs or wells in that valley, Maggie, might be a good idea to go and have a look around them.
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Hi Wiggy :)
Yes - that's what I meant when I said 'slightly squared of from the circular'. It could have been made to fit against something couldn't it?
Wiggy - huge apologies, just noticed I had described the wrong stone ...... I really must pay better attention :-[
You are absolutely correct, my 'garden stone' does have a fairly straight edge at the right hand side of the pic, then the stone tapers to a more pointed end. The stone has a bevelled base so it 'rocks' slightly. The stone can be held quite comfortably between one's knees whilst sitting on the floor so it's easy to see how it may have been used for ginding. I would not imagine is is a stoup.
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The 'dimple' in the middle is amazingly round though isn't it! :-\ wouldn't you just love someone to come forth and explain it once and for all!!
- sometimes we see things a bit like that where a meteorite has hit the earth/rock!
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This is a font at St Michael's Church, Grindale, Yorkshire, which is described as "an ancient font from the church at Argham".
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So, if you know of any springs or wells in that valley, Maggie, might be a good idea to go and have a look around them.
This is part of our on-going work, GS - and very enjoyable it is too although not in the Winter.
We had a field walk in the Autumn to see a well on the afore mentioned hillside that could be a candidate for St Chad's Well/Shrine. There was not a lot to see unfortunately - just a flagstone over a spring but its position is interesting. In the valley bottom is another spring and the source of two streams flowing in opposite directions - one westerly through the Sabden Fold valley and the other easterly towards Barrowford. One could imagine that this would be a place of significance and on the 1848 OS map several standing stones are shown in a 'corridor' position. No-one can locate these stones now, although older villagers can remember them lying in a field. Local farmers are very good at either dragging stones out of the ground and dragging them away or smashing them up.
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The font at Grindale has steeper sides to its hollow - looks more like how I imagine a font should look than does our candidate :-\
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I did wonder at one time whether your 'font' could be a mortar, but considering the dimensions, I would hate to think what size pestle you would need for it and how heavy said pestle would be! So I think we can discount that one. I do think a stoup is possible though.
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I'm just imagining the pestle and laughing. I'm veering towards it being a stoup but I do need to go and see it again.
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Actually, the same sort of idea crossed my mind, GS. Something like this for grinding corn by hand.
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Bear with me, this might,and might not be the correct link http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07433a.htm
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Was correct, so, that was holy water fonts, not to be confused with baptismal fonts, http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02274a.htm
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I'm absorbed and learning a lot, YT............ thanks :)
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Interesting links there YT - quite fascinating. Where it mentions font 'stoups', does that mean that the stoups were used as fonts?
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Stoups are fonts used for the visitors/congregation to the church to purify themselves, make the holy signs etc,[spectacles, testicles, watch & wallet] They are usually at the entrance, sometimes in a porch, sometimes in the chuch itself and sometimes outside.
Forgot to say; when entering the church.
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Just an extra, holy water is not good for you. http://improbable.com/news/2001/jan/holy-water.html
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:)
Just a thought but not impossible
It could possibly be a stone put there at the time of the great plague the black death, filled with vinegar or sour wine as a
cleansing purpose for people who had to give money in exchange for goods.
Goods were left at a certain point and the money dropped into the vinegar in the font to prevent contamination and the passing
on of any infection or disease from the infected village and its people
Ecclescake 2003
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That's a good point, Ecclescake - maybe we should be looking to see which villages suffered outbreaks of the plague in that area.
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YT - I know what stoups are but I was a bit confused with them also being described as 'fonts'; I suppose my mind got stuck on the baptismal thing and didn't connect with the fact that a font, presumably, is simply a generic term for something that contains water.
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Ecclescake's suggestion is most interesting. Never thought about the logistics of daily life during the plagues, and what our ancestors dealt with.
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First a message for Wiggy. I noticed I answered you incorrectly regarding my 'garden stone'. I'm afraid in the excitement I thought you were talking about the 'font' stone Wiggy. Apologies - I have corrected it now.
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That is a good point to raise, EcclesCake. I have found this example of one in Ackworth, Wakefield, which has similarities.
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To try to throw some light upon the plague question, we have to bear in mind that for various reasons to do with the evolvement of Pendle Forest from it's beginings as a Norman hunting area, the region was relatively sparsley populated. Regarding how much plague affected the population, the fact that it was sparsley populated worked in its favour and perhaps famine had a greater impact as I'm reading that there were major crop failures in the late 14th century.
I'm also reading that a number of leper hospitals were set up during the 13th and 14th centuries, a large one was at Clitheroe. Also land was granted at Colne to the Knights of St. John of Jerusalem 'in order for this order to provide the constant hospital treatment required by both the local sick and those who travelled through the area.(from history of Pendle Forest by John A. Clayton[/size])
Reading from the same book, there were outbreaks of plague in Manchester in 1581, 1586 and 1590. In 1604-5 the disease returned severe enough for 6 acres of waste land to be set aside outside the town (Manchester) where wooden cabins were occupied by plague sufferers and there were plague pits constructed where some 2,000 victims were buried.
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There are boundary stones and market cross bases with hollows for vinegar to be found, a possibly one on an ancient trackway in the Foulridge area, near Colne.
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I see there was an outbreak of plague in Bolton in 1623.
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There were also prolongued outbreaks of bubonic plague in Chester 1603-1605, the first phase resulting in the deathos of 933 people, and in the second 1041 died. I know this is a fair distance from the focus area, but people did travel far more than we give them credit for, and if it was known that the pestillence was down south, it might have been that certain preventative measures were adopted.
There is an incidence in a small village in Suffolk where a 'stranger' arrived and was taken in by a family. Within a few days the parish records record his burial as ' a stranger died of ye plague'. Within about ten days, the family with whom he lodged were all dead too. So you can imagine why small villages might want to be a bit cautious when dealing with strangers, particularly when rumours of plague abounded.
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In Pendle the few inhabitants, copyhold tennants with an absentee landlord, lived in a scattering of disjointed hamlets that only changed slowly over the centuries. In Lancashire in general the Sites & Monuments Record lists entries for 42 deserted or shrunken medieval villages. Some villages did thrive under the watchful eye of their lord, some remained dormant and others were abandoned and we can only recognise them today in a few earth banks and ditches.
The Forest of Bowland, of which Pendle Forest is part, was part of the Clitheroe estates and prior to that it was part of the lands of the deans of Whalley. There is a 13th century record showing villages within Pendle Forest listing some of which there is now no trace. This is likely that these lost villages were abandoned following outbreaks of disease and famine whilst others were de-populated by the abbeys or following the later land enclosures.
Although an area of islolated villages and sparse population, ancient trading routes north-south and east-west pass through the Forest and as such there would be passing contact with the wider world, therefore plague would be an issue. I would imagine that there would be few places that escaped its effects entirely.
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Query from far away - what are 'Deans' - a type of vegetation or topography or . . . . . :-\
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Query from far away - what are 'Deans' - a type of vegetation or topography or . . . . . :-\
A church official. In this instance connected to Whalley Abbey.
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I know about Deans in the church! ;D
I hadn't made the connection with a place: thanks! ;)
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The plague brought about changes to the social and economic structure that had far reaching consequences http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Italian_Studies/dweb/plague/effects/social.php
http://www.wzaponline.com/BlackDeath.pdf
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There are 2 links in the previous post, if I go back and alter the set up I will lose them so it's easier to say so here ::)
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A really interesting book which deals with all aspects of the Black Death in Europe in the 14th century is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Distant_Mirror
As you say YT, the Black Death had a major impact on society at all levels in the 14th century and if I remember correctly, I believe it wiped out about a third of the population of Europe - please feel free to correct me here anyone who knows better - and did lead to abandonment of large numbers of holdings.
The outbreaks of bubonic plague in the sixteenth century were also calamitous, but seem to have had a lesser impact on the global economy. However, I do believe that bubonic plague and its variations were responsible for many of the deserted or shrunken villages which were abandoned at that time.
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Oh Maggie,
I do love this thread,I can't contribute,but I am certainly learning heaps
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A third is the amount attributed to the black death maybe more, in Italy it was at least 50%. Also the killing of lepers, Jews and anyone with a skin complaint or abnormality must have contributed to the overall death toll
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For some reason I'm not getting email notification of posts on here therefore I didn't know of any activity tonight, so I'm catching up a bit.
I agree with GS that, as I remember it, a third of the population of Europe died of Bubonic plague in the 14th century and that doesn't take into account the additional casualties that YT mentions.
The impact on communities was that the workforce diminished considerably so the remaining peasantry had more bargaining power to demand better pay and working conditions leading ultimately to a loosening of the ties of the old feudal system.
Despite a law being passed in 1349 to try to ensure that labourers received no more than their wages before the plague, wages started to rise and workers had more freedom to move around between estates and were in a position to take on better quality small holdings, resulting in the poor quality land they formally farmed becoming abandoned.
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And another result of their release from serfdom was that people were no longer tied to the countryside; this meant that in some places there was quite an exodus to the towns. People were led to believe that it was there that fortunes could be made: an example is the story of Dick Whittington and his cat, who travelled to London, where Dick became Mayor of London for the first time in 1397. I'm not sure if history records what happened to the cat! Clearly stories like this - of radical changes in fortune of country-boys - would have endured for a very long time and when the opportunity arose to leave the land, many people with a spirit of adventure would have jumped at the chance.
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You may remember in the ‘ruined cottage’ thread that I posted a picture of a magnificent example of a yeoman farmer’s house with a date stone of 1593. There was some discussion as to how farmers in Pendle Forest could afford to build themselves such fine properties. This may help explain what was going on in Lancashire post Conquest.
Gradually the structure of the demesne (see next post) lands of the honour of Clitheroe – Blackburnshire or the Blackburn Hundred – changed. In the west of the county more land was granted out to tenants, whilst more of the lands in the east (Pendle Forest) were retained. These tenants in the west who rented from the De Lacy overlords had the opportunity to expand and eventually build themselves fine houses and this accounts for there being far more gentry houses in the west of Lancashire today than there are in the east (the area presently under discussion), as these eastern areas remained demesne. This area could only boast 2 families with holdings in 1311. However by the later 16th century east Lancashire began to see a rise in minor gentry and wealthy yeomanry, with a concentration around Burnley and Pendle Forest. It would seem that in the east, as the under tenants started to become more successful, yeoman-class houses started to be built on the periphery of the estates of the gentry for example in Pendle Forest. A principal reason for this rise of the yeoman farmer in this area was that in 1507 there was an official deforestation of Pendle Forest.
More of that in a following post……unless I’m becoming boring.
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To try to explain what demesne land is – in feudal law it was those areas of lands belonging to a manor but not granted to freehold tenants. It was retained for the lord’s own use and occupation and any tenants were leasehold and therefore open to eviction at any time.
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definitely nor boring Maggie! Fascinating rather . . so much to learn -
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I got to see some of your lovely countryside this afternoon when I turned on the television. A couple on "Escape to the Country" were looking for a house around Newchurch and Pendle Hill was shown and the witches mentioned. ;)
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There are some interesting markings to the north-west of the Upper Blackmoss Reservoir. Evidence of strip cultivation perhaps? Or burgage plots? Or are we just talking modern drainage ditches?
Image removed.
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I really don't know, GS - but they look intriguing. Although it is possibly a land drain system? It's the history club meeting this evening so I'll ask around. Excuse my absence in here until later perhaps.
Groom - sorry I missed that programme.
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I missed the programme too.
I was a grandmother today, not a free person ;D
I've been trying to find pictures of the old stocks in our village. They were rescued when the lane they had stood on for many a year, near one of the churches, was being widened as a developer was building houses.
They are now settled on the Millennium Green opened in - you've guessed it, 2000.
This is land in front of what was once a rather grand house, now a private hospital, but the land itself is for the use of locals to enjoy.
Absolutely nothing on the scale of your playground Maggie.
I've not found the photos yet, another search or a visit to the green is called for.
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On the aerial view GS posted, I think there are 4 areas of herringbone field drainage running into ditches, but nevertheless amongst the drains are some intriguing features including one just off the picture to the north.
I've been looking tonight at some old OS maps and it would seem that there were a lot more houses in the area of the ruined cottage, certainly in the 1860s, before the reservoirs were built.
Sue - I hope you can find the picture of your village stocks for us to see as perhaps it's time to wander away from Pendle Forest for a bit and explore another part of Lancashire.
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I was wondering if there is a written account of the clearance of the land for the reservoirs. In other areas there are some interesting accounts written by people who were displaced by such events; very poignant the way that communities were torn apart, often with little notice and no compensation.
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I suspect in the case of the Blackmoss reservoirs that the impact was more on the land that had been aquired to create them as some must have lost their only source of income whilst their farmhouses remained. I have never found any accounts from the building of the Blackmoss reservoirs, but have read quite a few from other ones and it did indeed tear the communities apart. All very sad.
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I have heard today that the ruined cottage has now been levelled and re-buried. It is good that I have the photos. An full archaeological report is to be produced by United Utilities of all that was found.
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Wow - were you expecting it to happen quite so quickly??
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Hi Mo - are there any written accounts of removals in the general area as far as reservoirs etc are concerned? About 20 miles from where I live now a whole community was uprooted at the start of WW2 and the area made into a military range. Someone had the perspicacity to gather together photos and the stories of the families who were thrown off their land and it does make for poignant reading. Some of the buildings are still standing but as they are in the middle of a live firing range, it is not advisable to go and wander around up there, as you can imagine!
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That poor cottage. It was lovely. :-\
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You could try this for starters.
Hope it works as it's been shrunk :-\
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0jvz/
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This too.
http://www.abandonedcommunities.co.uk/rochdale5.html
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This one is very interesting, and covers the whole country, not just Lancashire.
I'm sure it will appeal to everyone interested in the subject being discussed.
Hope so :-\
Maggie, you have started something with the cottage.
Breathing life into our past, for which I am most pleased ;)
http://www.abandonedcommunities.co.uk/places.html
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Interesting reading Su - specially the last one about abandoned towns/villages - I expect when villages are submerged under reservoirs in UK they stay submerged - (slight sidetrack, but during our 11 year drought, several submerged towns resurfaced as the reservoirs got lower and lower - you could see the houses and streets!)
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This one gets us back on track.
Much closer to home for Maggie, Mo, Me and..........
http://www.abandonedcommunities.co.uk/haslingdengrane.html
Hi Wiggy, it's amazing what you can find in just a few moments isn't it?
And yes, re your sidetrack, when the reservoirs were very low a few years ago, a village flooded in the Lake District was suddenly resurrected.
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What wonderful links, Su - thanks for those. They make fascinating reading and I'm sure there must be people on RC who had families affected by these events. Will settle down now to read the links through properly but a quick glance revealed that an entire cotton mill and associated village were drowned in one reservoir. I know they will all be in ruins now, but in my mind I can imagine them all still standing, under water, just waiting to be resurrected once again.
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Wiggy, in years of drought some of our drowned villages reappear. It is a strange feeling to see them and to know that generations of families were brought up there, tended their flocks, had their babies...... It must have been heart-breaking to be thrown off the land you called home; more so in those days, I suppose, when people weren't so mobile and when compensation wasn't an issue.
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Quite so GS ::)
Imagine someone coming to the door, telling you to pack up your family and belongings and leave. Nowhere to go, and all you get is "not my problem".
Thinking about it logically, that could explain why we find familes split up in some censuses. Mum and dad and maybe some of the children living with parents, with other children farmed out to aunts, uncles, cousins etc.
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Su, what wonderful links and thank you so much for adding them. I shall look forward to reading them in depth when I've a bit more time later today.
Interesting about that dig at Stocks reservoir as our history group was sent notification of the church foundations investigation in case anyone wanted to go along and help. It clashed with our holiday in the autumn so we were unable to go.
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Thanks for those links Su. The one on Cowm on the Rochdale link of the forgotten communities site mentions a book called Cowm the Valley that died which I have. Oddly enough I was looking for it yesterday evening. I eventually found it this morning and am reading it again.
GS I have not found any first hand written accounts of removal as yet, but if I do I will post.
Mo
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Would take an age in library to find so much Mo, wouldn't it?
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Wow - were you expecting it to happen quite so quickly??
When we were taken around the dig 2 weeks ago, we were told we would be the last group to see it. I believe many groups got the opportunity to see it including school children. What a great lesson in social history for them.
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This may be of interest:-
http://www.ribblevalleyholidays.co.uk/leaflets/BlackMoss.pdf
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There are a further couple of reservoirs near Barley at Ogden:-
http://www.ribblevalleyholidays.co.uk/leaflets/OgdenRes.pdf
There used to be a community living here before the valley was flooded. Somewhere I think I have info. on it but it's like looking for a needle in a haystack.
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This is really interesting as it describes life in Barley in the 19th century. Go to our group website here:-
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0jw2/
The article, which is a transcript of an interview with the oldest village inhabitant at that time (1971), is copyrighted so I cannot reproduce any of it here.
The link should take you to the 'Archives' page. Once there click on 'archives' in the text some way down the page or alternatively just click the underlined link in the blue banner at the top. This opens into our database of some of the documents we hold, mostly they have been donated. Now you need to click on 'Barley' and that opens up 21 files, then select 'Barley Village' and at the bottom of the page that then opens is a Word document for download called 'Oral History'. Rather a convoluted way to get to it I'm afraid.
Hope all this works :)
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It works :D
- fascinating - going to go back and read it again at leisure!
Thanks for that Maggie! And the other links/downloads
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Might be interesting; http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/23797/pages/4739
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Thanks for all the links......... fascinating.
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Thank you, Maggie, for reincarnating this - I'm totally rapt!
Meanwhile - slightly off-topic, but then you were discussing plagues, ... I've recently seen a program on telly, about the possibility that more than one disease actually got misdiagnosed and labelled "The Black Death" or "Bubonic Plague". According to the written reports, there seemed to be quite a few conflicting symptoms. From what I recall, some symptoms sounded similar to what we, today, would call meningococcal disease, ... there were no "buboes" as such, just dark or black marks on the skin.
So ... perhaps the rats and fleas weren't entirely to blame, after all?!
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So glad this is proving of interest.
As we have been talking of the possible impact of plague in Lancashire, I think it's appropriate to put in this link to a page embedded in the really interesting web page Su posted a link to at reply #82:-
http://www.abandonedcommunities.co.uk/blackdeath.html
Scott and Duncan argue that the disease was not Bubonic Plague but a haemorrhagic disease transmitted by an unknown virus. One of the reasons they give for reaching this conclusion is that the Black Death occured in countries where rats and/or fleas, the supposed carriers, did not exist, for example Iceland.
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Might be interesting; http://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/23797/pages/4739
So there were two Ogden Reservoirs in Lancashire - one near Bury/Haslingden and the other at Barley.
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Scott and Duncan argue that the disease was not Bubonic Plague but a haemorrhagic disease transmitted by an unknown virus. One of the reasons they give for reaching this conclusion is that the Black Death occured in countries where rats and/or fleas, the supposed carriers, did not exist, for example Iceland.
I think that the rat went on board the ships. The rats followed the human population. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rattus_rattus.jpg
If I remember correctly someone in France has extracted bubonic plague [dna?] from teeth taken from a plague pit.
The Justinian plague from earlier centuries might and might not have been bubonic plague.
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Found it http://www.pnas.org/content/97/23/12800.full.pdf
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http://www.liv.ac.uk/researchintelligence/issue24/blackdeath.html
They argue that The Black Death and Bubonic Plague are two separate diseases.
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Really interesting, must keep an eye on this.
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I think Meningococcal meningitis that someone mentioned earlier is a type of haemorrhagic disease too isn't it. Fascinating stuff - I didn't think there were 17-28 million people in Europe at that time in history - learn something every day don't you! ::)
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This is all quite fascinating. I think I mentioned earlier the book by Barbara W Tuchman 'A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous 14th Century' which is really a very interesting source of information about the black death. I must see if I can find my copy now; not sure I've seen it since we moved house.....
But certainly from the links you have posted it would seem likely that the black death and bubonic plague were not the same disease. Interesting that brown rats are not indigenous to Great Britain; I didn't know that.
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Neither are black rats, and they are the ones associated with the plague. Although brown rats do carry plague they didn't arrive in Europe until the 1600's and probably late 1600's by the time they got to England.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_rat
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The post earlier about Stocks Reservoir interested me. Our family used to go for walks around there regularly. I remember the rebuilt church of course and the stories behind it, including about exhuming the old churchyard and reburying them there, and I've visited it many times. But I also remember that it was possible to walk through the woods to the water's edge and there was a lot of interesting stuff to be found.
This was broadleaf woodland, not the pine that was grown around much of that area. I don't know if it was an old woodland though, but it was perfectly possible to make out where the original lanes had been and even better, where houses had been. One in particular must have been an old farmhouse as the layout was of a pretty large and square house (there were still walls remaining up to about one or two feet) and in the middle, the steps down to the old cellar. As kids we poked around a few times, wondering if you could get in, but it seemed to have been filled in. There was what had obviously been a cottage garden and an orchard too. As you got closer to the water there was clearly an old lane, and when there was a drought, a stone bridge would emerge out of the water, leading to an 'island'.
I found this link to a fantastic site http://dalehead.org/1995_drought_year.htm with photos of the 1995 drought and the bridge was 'Grange Hall Bridge', though it was in better shape in '76 and '83.
I know my parents have photos of this so I'm going to have to ask for copies now! Do any of these remains still exist, and can you even gain access to that area?
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Hi Lal - that's a really interesting read about Stocks. Despite it not being that far away from where I live, I cannot remember ever having been - it tends to be the case with places on your doorstep doesn't it? The link to the old photos is fascinating.
Here is a link to another of those United Utilities leaflets that shows the route of an 8 mile walk around the reservoir with points of interest noted.
http://www.forestofbowland.com/files/uploads/pdfs/leaflets/StocksRes.pdf
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Really interesting link, Lal. Loved the picture of the ancient bridge; must seem really strange when it re-emerges from the waters. I would love to do the 8 mile walk around the reservoirs and see all the archaeological/historic sites on the circuit. Maybe we should get a coach up ;D
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Well GS, you know where there's a bed :-\
Much as I'd like to, I really don't think (in fact pretty certain) that my feet won't allow me to walk that far these days. Very annoying as I could walk quite a long way at a decent pace.
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This is all quite fascinating. I think I mentioned earlier the book by Barbara W Tuchman 'A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous 14th Century' which is really a very interesting source of information about the black death.
Intrigued with this, so I read up a bit about this book and I would like to read it. I've ordered a used copy for not a lot of money from the USA via A****n.
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In the meantime this is an interesting read; http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=1442216&pageno=1
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I must find my copy, Maggie; I have re-read it in places many times. It is so informative and makes you wonder how anyone actually survived the 14th century because not only was there the black death, but also the most terrible famines and wars. It seemed that almost the whole of Europe was laid waste; it gives a broad background to what was happening in our own particular areas and helps us to understand what it must have been like, even in the most remote areas.
And that's an interesting link too, YT. I note that Defoe was about five or six at the time of the Great Plague, and therefore a year older at the Great Fire of London which apparently decimated the area where he and his family lived. I am assuming that he must have gathered together a great many eye-witness accounts to produce his work.
It must have been a tumultuous time in the mid 17th century throughout the country. There would have been a fear of strangers because of the plague, and then the news filtering through about London burning would have been received with shock and awe. And of course the country had just cast off the yolk of the Commonwealth and the King returned to the throne so after years of fear and uncertainty for many, with the country seeming on the road to recovery, the plague then came to wreak yet more havoc.
Added: If we did manage to arrange a walk round the reservoirs, perhaps we should do it in character and take msr along on a litter ;D
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How am I ever going to get any work done with all this interesting information to read?
Thank-you again YT - the latest link provides an illuminating insight into those terrible times and the impact on communities.
To recap, at least for my own benefit, there is a school of thought that for convincing reasons has the 14th century Black Death and the 17th century Bubonic Plague as two separate diseases.
Black Death -
Incubation period - 32 days
Death sure to follow infection
No rats in rural areas as black rat stayed near ports and no brown rat until 1720-ish
Bubonic Plague -
Incubation period 2-6 days
Human mortality lower and not as infectious
Caused by bacterium Yerisina Pestis that affects rodents then transmitted by fleas.
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To recap, at least for my own benefit, there is a school of thought that for convincing reasons has the 14th century Black Death and the 17th century Bubonic Plague as two separate diseases.
Black Death -
Incubation period - 32 days
Death sure to follow infection
No rats in rural areas as black rat stayed near ports and no brown rat until 1720-ish
Bubonic Plague -
Incubation period 2-6 days
Human mortality lower and not as infectious
Caused by bacterium Yerisina Pestis that affects rodents then transmitted by fleas.
Not sure that it was two separate diseases, reports seem to describe the same or similar symptoms. The theory of a longer incubation period put forward from Liverpool seems to be based on a study conducted on a village or small area only, it may well have been something else that occurred there, but not overall. Maybe they should disinter the bodies and see if they can extract the DNA, if possible.
I am not convinced of the fact that black rats stayed in ports only, I think they where much more widespread.
Also any type of sickness tended to be classed as the plague at the time, a consequence of ignorance and fear I would think.
The small amount of DNA research done so far as proven the existence of bubonic plague but it needs more widespread research.
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The last time I called at the chapel by Stocks reservoir I was surprised to find that it had electricity, and electric heating, driven from a wind turbine by the graveyard wall.
Keeping the place warm and dry should help preserve it in the worst of the inclement weather up there.
There was also space for an explanatory exhibition about the area.
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About Stocks, I'm a bit sad now as I looked it up on Google Street View and the area where the ruined houses was now seems to be a big car park area. Back in the 70s and 80s, there was just a layby on the corner, and a path through the trees. The ruins stood between the road and the waterside, near the sharp bend in School Lane - easy to find now on Google Maps by looking for the car park!
But from various searches I've done, it also looks like the ruins of the big old house with the cellar might have been the vicarage.
It used to be possible to go across the bridge, though seeing the last photos of it, I'm not sure it would be 100% safe now, if there was another drought.
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Just to go back to the cottage in Blackmoss, it is included in the Lancashire Archaeology Dayschool Programme Saturday 21 April 2012. There will be a 40 minute talk about it.
http://www.lancashire.gov.uk/corporate/web/?siteid=4398&pageid=19848&e=e
Scroll down to programme.
I am actually quite tempted to go as there are some other interesting topics during the day.
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'Frank Giecco (North Pennines Archaeology)' is listed as giving the talk - he is the man who took our group round the cottage.
Looks an interesting day, Mo - I'm tempted to come with you.
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I have spend the evening with Bubonic Plague ::)
This is a fairly recent bit of research that would seem point to the 14th century outbreak being caused by the bacterium yersinia pestis, which is the cause of bubonic plague today.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110829173751.htm
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They seem to have overcome the possibility of contamination during DNA testing that the people who carried out the research in my earlier link where accused of.
[earlier link; http://www.pnas.org/content/97/23/12800.full.pdf
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That latest article on the Black Death is very interesting Maggie; so that and bubonic plague are the same strain - how very interesting that the incubation periods have changed so dramatically.
I've been reading up about how the Black Death affected life in Lancashire. Apparently, one-half of the population of the county was wiped out in the outbreaks of 1348 and 1351. Before this time, there had been quite a rapid expansion in arable farming, with pastures being ploughed up to grow crops, woodlands cleared, and even rough uplands being ploughed up to produce crops.
Following the Black Death, however, there was insufficient manpower for the labour-intensive industry of arable farming and consequently there was a reversion to livestock farming once again. It was soon found that there was a ready market for wool in both Britain and the continent and therefore it was not long before the county had developed a thriving wool trade. Following on from this, the presence of so many rivers and other watercourses meant that the county was ideally placed to branch out into textile manufacturing on a larger scale than hitherto. Consequently the cloth-making industry of Lancashire developed, as a result in part of the ready supply of wool following the re-focusing of farming after the Black Death.
The fact that in the wake of the Black Death, Lancashire was predominantly involved in livestock farming, other than in the fertile valleys, meant that the raised strips of the earlier period were left unploughed; and consequently we have the legacy of that era as these raised strips and field systems are in many places still apparent today.
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and consequently we have the legacy of that era as these raised strips and field systems are in many places still apparent today.
A good, informative piece of information, GS - thanks. Time for a picture of medieval field systems on a hillside local to me.
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I do find it interesting that in areas which have been laid to pasture for centuries, so much of the history is still evident in the landscape, such as the ridges and furrows. My home county is Suffolk where, thanks to arable farming for centuries, there are few such indications of earlier times left to be discovered, having been long since ploughed to oblivion. Here in Wales, though, particularly in the autumn when the sun is low in the sky, there are the most wonderful patterns of past ages which emerge from the landscape as shadows of long ago.
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Interesting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronaca_fiorentina
especially if you can read this http://www.archive.org/stream/rerumitalicarums301murauoft#page/n11/mode/2up
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GS, your post on the changes that occurred from arable labour intensive farming to livestock to woollen industry and mills is most interesting.
Thanks for that.
As so many of our ancestors seem to have been weavers it helps our understanding of Lancashire.
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I'm not sure whether that figure of a loss of half the population of Lancashire between 1348 and 1351 is attributable to the Black Death alone, or whether starvation due to a succession of bad harvests and the warfare io the 14th century also contributed.
Whatever the reasons it was a shocking decrease in the population and it is easy to see how it would have tipped the balance away from arable crop towards the less labour intensive livestock farming, sheep in particular. The evidence is visible all around me of the hillsides once having been ploughed by oxen for arable use. I find it very thought provoking to contemplate the reasons behind these landscape features that I have taken for granted until fairly recently.
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Going back a bit further, I thought this was an interesting snippet.
The County of Lancashire was only recognised in its own right in 1181-2. Prior to this, at the time of the Norman Conquest there was no administrative district and in the Doomsday Book south Lancashire is described as ‘inter Ripam et Mersham’ – between the Ribble and the Mersey, whilst north Lancashire was referred to as ‘the King’s lands in Yorkshire'. Its first appearance as a separate region occurred when an official of the Royal Exchequer, who was compiling an accounts document for Northumberland, wrote out a separate parchment headed ‘Lancasra quia non erat ei locus’ – ‘Lancaster, because there is no place for it' (in Northumberland).
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How very interesting Maggie.
I for my part have been delving a bit further into the Black Death and whilst this piece is not specifically for Lancashire, I think it is worth posting. It is an extract from the writings of Henry Knighton of Leicester, who observed the arrival of the Black Death in England in 1348 and describes its effects on farming thus:
"In the same year there was a great murrain of sheep everywhere in the kingdom, so that in one place in a single pasture more than 5,000 sheep died; and they putrefied so that neither bird nor beast would touch them.
Everything was low in price because of the fear of death, for very few people took any care of riches or property of any kind............. Sheep and cattle ran at large through the fields and among the crops, and there was none to drive them off or herd them; for lack of care they perished in ditches and hedges in incalculable numbers throughout all districts, and none knew what to do. For there was no memory of death so stern and cruel since the time of Vortigern, King of the Britons, in whose day, as Bede testifies, the living did not suffice to bury the dead. ..........Wherefore many crops wasted in the fields for lack of harvesters. But in the year of the pestilence, as has been said above, there was so great an abundance of every type of grain that almost no one cared for it."
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Thats interesting, in the cronica fiorentina it say that the cats, dogs, oxen and chickens etc, where killed by the plague.
So, if as has been put forward, that the animals where kept in the houses in close proximity to the human occupants then the flea need not have been transmitted via the rats alone.
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I hadn't realised that animals were infected as well. It is also interesting to read the piece below, taken from 'The History of Human-Animal Interaction - The Medieval Period', which seems to take us back to where we began, with witches and cats!
Cats came under suspicion for a variety of reasons. Unlike dogs, they did not behave subserviently toward humans. This was considered unnatural, because it violated the biblical view that humans should have dominion over animals. Also, cats were very active at night .... Though cats had always behaved in this manner, to the superstitious minds of the Middle Ages, cats were practicing supernatural powers and witchcraft. Most accused witches were older peasant women who lived alone, often keeping cats as pets for companionship. This guilt by association meant that roughly a million cats were burned at the stake, along with their owners, on suspicion of being witches.
In the early thirteenth century Pope Gregory IX (1145–1241) declared that ... the devil had appeared in the form of a black cat. Cats became the official symbol of heresy.... Anyone who showed any compassion or feeling for a cat came under the church's suspicion. By the beginning of the fourteenth century, Europe's cat population had been severely depleted....
In 1347 the bubonic plague swept across Europe. Called the Black Death, it killed twenty-five million people (nearly a third of Europe's population) in only three years. Thousands of farm animals died as well, either from the plague or from lack of care..... In addition, millions of people are thought to have suffered from food poisoning during the Middle Ages because of the presence of rat droppings in the grain supply.
Centuries of cat slaughter had allowed the rodent population to surge out of control
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Perhaps here I can be allowed to be a little partisan since it would appear that in Wales, cats' lives seemed too be somewhat less risky:
".......within Europe, there was a notable exception to the cat persecution. During the 900s the small country of Wales was ruled by Hywel the Good. In 945 he established laws for his realm that included protections for cats for their good works in protecting the region's grain supplies. Hywel's laws set the monetary worth of cats (a penny at birth and four pennies after a successful mouse kill) and imposed strict penalties on people for stealing or killing cats. This legal protection lasted for several centuries, until Welsh law was replaced by English law."
Link here to the website, as requested therein if material is copied:
<a href="http://www.libraryindex.com/pages/2149/History-Human-Animal-Interaction-MEDIEVAL-PERIOD.html">The History of Human-Animal Interaction - The Medieval Period</a>
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Not specific to Lancashire, but two books that I found gave me a better general understanding of the Black Death ... (because it affected Monmouth when I was digging), are:-
'The Black Death' by Robert S Gottfried
'The Black Death and Peasants Revolt' by Leonard W. Cowie
A novel which I love is 'Years of Wonders' by Geraldine Brooks, based on the plague and how it affected the village of Eyam ... well worth reading as it is well researched and puts the human angle on the plague, rather than bald facts.
And one more book I have 'Fields in the English Landscape' by Christopher Taylor. It has info about fields from prehistoric times up to now !
I repeat, none of the above are specific to Lancashire, but they do give background information for reading around the subject.
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Some very interesting information - thank you all. I'm out all day from now so will catch up later.
Doesn't the poem Pied Piper of Hamlelin poem relate to the death of children from plague in Germany? No time to check now but I'm sure I have read that somewhere.
All adds depth to the effect of the plague in Lancashire - we must be very careful not drift off topic though.
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Sorry ... but if people want to be specific to the plague in Lancs, then I suspect info will only be available in very learned studies ! I haven't found any ! And reading round a subject is always good !!
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Getting away from the plague aspect and back to old things in Lancs.
I have not yet found my pics of the Euxton stocks I mentioned much earlier, but have located this one which shows the stones in their original location before being moved for 'progress'.
Copyright: Lancashire CC
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Interesting stocks Su - where have they been relocated to?
And reading round a subject is always good !!
I agree entirely and no way do I wish to kill the discussion so please keep it coming as it all helps our understanding. I am simply conscious that this thread is on the Lancashire board.
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http://www.localpopulationstudies.org.uk/PDF/LPS37/LPS37_1986_53-54.pdf
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What an awful picture that article paints, YT.
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That is a very interesting link YT and it could well explain many of the sites abandoned in the 17th century: I suppose they had just got over typhus/famine/falling birth rate when bubonic plague came back in earnest. When you look at the death rates in Lancashire between, say, 1620 and 1660, it is a wonder that any villages survived at all!
It seems to me that the falling birth rate in Lancashire - looking at YT's link - in the mid 1620s is not much of a mystery. If there was a decline in the weaving industry, crop failures, general starvation and what seems like outbreaks of typhus and other related diseases, it is hardly surprising that people were not marrying and procreating. They probably had quite enough to do to keep themselves and those close to them alive.
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Most interesting YT - poor Lancashire.
I've been without internet for 2 days so I've been investigating what my bookshelves had to offer and I've found a most interesting book I had forgotten I possessed - 'The Lost Villages of Britain' by Richard Muir. Reading it reminded me of an episode in the history of the North of England that reverberates still today in the apparent 'emptiness' and relative 'newness' of the region and goes a huge way to explain the low population of those times and in the centuries following. I'm talking about the Harrying of the North.
At the time of the Conquest, the earldom of Northumbria, of which Lancashire was then an unidentified part, consisted of an uneasy mix of Danish, Norse, Saxon and Celtic settlements, who united to resist the Normans who had subjugated the remainder of England. The Normans failed in several attempts to subdue the north so William the Conqueror decided to destroy it. This became known as the Harrying of the North - a genocide that took place in 1069-71 and it proved to be the most fearful in English history. It is recorded that 100,000 people perished, making the rural landscape of the North of England a desolate wasteland and from which, it can be argued, it has still not recovered.
cont.....
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.....cont
The Domesday Book was compiled some 15 years after the genocide, but it shows that estate after estate throughout Lancashire, Yorkshire and Co. Durham still remained as barren wasteland.
Eventually some of these wastelands attracted a new breed of churchmen who saw no moral difficulty in evicting an improverished community or removing a hamlet so they could build monasteries and use the land as a farm for their own ends. A village would be acquired, peasant farming practises were abolished and wholesale eviction of the original tenants ensued. Monastic sheep farms were established. An example in Lancashire is at Rossal - the Cistercians at Dieulacres in Staffordshire owned lands in the then thinly populated Lancashire and at the village of Rossal the peasants were removed from their homes and made to work on the Rossal estate.
Only at the time of Dissolution, when the sheep farms were dismantled and the land shared by lay landlords to be divided amongst keen tenants were villages and houses re-built, unlike in the south of the country where so many medieval examples remain.
Info. gleaned from 'The Lost Villages of Britain' by Richard Muir
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Getting away from the plague aspect and back to old things in Lancs.
I have not yet found my pics of the Euxton stocks I mentioned much earlier, but have located this one which shows the stones in their original location before being moved for 'progress'.
Copyright: Lancashire CC
Su - I've just been reading an article in an ancient copy of 'Lancashire' magazine about Euxton - it sounds an interesting village. Reputedly it had one of the earliest paper mills in 1611. It also says it has a haunted pub. The re-located stocks are on the Millennium Green aren’t they?
It says one of the village churches was built around 1573.
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Following this thread from exile in Somerset and hoping I'm not adding something you all know. Reading J. Lofthouse's 'Lancashire Countrygoer ', she says that Slaidburn Church has a cylindrical Norman font , smoothed' by an 'improver'. Is that anything like yours, Maggie? Also, same area, (p.134) she mentions 3 types of building sone - gritstone, limestone and a rosy pink stone from quarries on Kitcham and Birkett.
p93 She has a picture of your beautiful farmhouse dated 1592. It reminds me of an early home of the Peel family who moved from that area to Blackburn in 1640 and prospered from generation to generation, finally producing Robert Peel as P.M. I wonder how much social mobility there was in the area.
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Hi Ashgard,
So sorry for the delay in replying. I've only just spotted your interesting information as for some reason I don't get email notification of posts made on this thread.
Is this the font? If so it's in St Andrew's Church, Slaidburn.
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/PhotoFrames/WRY/SlaidburnStAndrew.html
It certainly appears to have been smoothed - rather a pity that the 'improver' didn't leave in alone I feel. The 'improvements' make it difficult to say whether it would have borne any similarities to mine, although this one appears to be taller. Apparently the the font-cover is Elizabethan and is lifted by means of weights and pulleys, the screen is Jacobean and the three-decker pulpit is Georgian.
Kitcham and Birkett quarries are near to Slaidburn aren't they? That is some distance away from the ruined cottage, where there are examples of pink sandstone. Incidentally since talking about this rosy coloured stone I'm now noticing how much of the stuff has been used in the walls of the stone cottages around here.
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most interesting reading when following this thread. Thanks folks for the history lessons!
Wiggy
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Eventually some of these wastelands attracted a new breed of churchmen who saw no moral difficulty in evicting an improverished community or removing a hamlet so they could build monasteries and use the land as a farm for their own ends. A village would be acquired, peasant farming practises were abolished and wholesale eviction of the original tenants ensued.
They did this at Accrington. But the locals got their own back by burning down the church buildings and killing a few of the monks who were working there.
At least they didn't just lie down and accept their eviction!
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I'd always understood that in the Doomsday Book the population of Yorkshire was much diminished. I'd thought the Normans had knocked them off for refusing to submit tomthem. Now it seems that plague had had a big part to play.
charlotte
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The harrowing of the North. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrying_of_the_North
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Eventually some of these wastelands attracted a new breed of churchmen who saw no moral difficulty in evicting an improverished community or removing a hamlet so they could build monasteries and use the land as a farm for their own ends. A village would be acquired, peasant farming practises were abolished and wholesale eviction of the original tenants ensued.
They did this at Accrington. But the locals got their own back by burning down the church buildings and killing a few of the monks who were working there.
At least they didn't just lie down and accept their eviction!
That's Accringtonians for you, BashLad ;D
I'm just reading from an Accrington Jubilee Souvenir 1878 to 1928 book that used to belong to my mother and it mentions the incident against the monks. Accrington had been given to the abbot and monks of Kirkstall in 1200 and they didn't treat the inhabitants well, dispossessing them of their dwellings etc. They burnt the new Grange and murdered the 3 lay brothers in charge of it. The abbott appealed to his patron, Robert de Lacy, who meted out punishment in true 13th century fashion and 'peace was restored'.
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Just reading that the name Accrington is of Saxon origin - 'Akeringa's town', and older inhabitant's (this was written in 1928) still pronounced the town as 'Ak-ker-ing-ton'.
It has also been suggested that it means 'Oak-field-enclosure'.
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The harrowing of the North. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrying_of_the_North
YT, thanks for the link ;D The info there is most informative and confirms what I had understood to be the case. The plagues that followed must have been the last straw.
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Just reading that the name Accrington is of Saxon origin - 'Akeringa's town', and older inhabitant's (this was written in 1928) still pronounced the town as 'Ak-ker-ing-ton'.
It has also been suggested that it means 'Oak-field-enclosure'.
My Grandpa always called it Akker-in-tun...... somewhat similar ;D
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I remember my father telling me it's name came from 'Acorn-in-ring-town'. I think that supports the 'oak-field-enclosure' theory.
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Sorry about my intervention, which refers back to earlier posts. Thanks, Maggie for your photos of Slaidburn Church font,. It doesn't look very like yours, unless yours has been more 'smoothed by an improver'! but at least I know now what was meant by a cylindrical font, I couldn't imagine what J. Lofthouse meant.
I don't know what counts as a long distance in terms of quarrying stone. I suppose it depends if there is a nearer source or not.
Thanks
Anne
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Returning yet again to the possible stone font currently residing in a field around here, I've now had an opportunity to take a photo of the ancient (likely) font now in the church at Newchurch in Pendle and I have attached the pic. alongside one of the 'font' in the field. The one in the church was found several years ago in a field in the valley just below the church - the same valley as where the other one lies. The distance between the two would have been no more than 2 miles as the crow flies. The font in the church is approx. 15 inches in height and 18 inches in diameter.
The fields around the first 'font' are still too wet for me to go and acccurately measure it for a size comparison.
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Is the supposition that the font now back in storage in the church, the original one that was in the church long ago?
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The church can be dated back to 1250 - the church tower is all that remains of that period. There are tales told of there being a shrine to St Chad somewhere in the valley bottom, possibly sited near one of the many springs there, but to date nothing to confirm this has been found.
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That looks like a very good match. I wonder why these two are quite shallow whereas the one at Slaidburn looks so deep.
I often fondly think of returning to live in the Ribble Valley, but was reading Country Life in the Dentist's waiting room and they had an article on ' Houses in and around Clitheroe', with prices!!!
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After paying the dentist it's most unlikely you'd have enough left to buy a Clitheroe house ;D
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Ribble Valley prices are a bit steep, Ashgard :o
You're right about the 'font' depth. In fact I'm inclined to think that certainly the one in the field is a stoup as it looks like the one in the pic. posted by alpinecottage on page 3 #23 :-
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,576151.20.html
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I think early fonts were deeper because of full immersion baptisms. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptism_by_full_immersion
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While I am here I might as well put this on. http://www.historyfish.net/abbeys/abbeyparts/cox_fonts.html
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Thanks again YT for more informative contributions.
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anything historical lancashire ?? in St Chads churchyard Poulton - Le - Fylde their is a Pirates grave though faded youcan still make out the skull and crossbones just thought it might be of interest.
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anything historical lancashire ?? in St Chads churchyard Poulton - Le - Fylde their is a Pirates grave though faded youcan still make out the skull and crossbones just thought it might be of interest.
Skull and crossbones is just a symbol of mortality/death - it doesn't mean there's a pirate buried there. ;D What does the inscription read?
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Hi Ruskie thanks for your input, the faded inscription is Edward Sherdle ? :)died 21stSept 1711 age71.
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A warm welcome to Rootschat, monkhouse.
This site is quite interesting:-
http://www.graveaddiction.com/symbol.html
As Ruskie says a skull and crossbones is a symbol meaning mortality & death.
There is a headstone in the graveyard of St Marys, Newchurch in Pendle with such a symbol on it. As it is a Nutter family grave, people mistakenly assume that it is the grave of Alice Nutter, one of the supposed Pendle witches. This cannot be the case as a convicted witch would not have been buried in consecrated ground.