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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: andy48 on Saturday 14 January 12 09:21 GMT (UK)
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I am a newby to the forum and found lots of older posts about Turnham Green via Google, so I thought I would seek assistance from the community.
I am trying to trace my ancestors Thomas & Sarah Anderson who apparently lived in TG about 1831. Their son, my direct ancestor, George Edward Anderson has put his birthplace as Turnham Green on every census from 1861 to 1901, with birth year varying from 1830-1832 on all these census. His younger brother (1834) does not, so presumably the family moved to Brompton/Kensington (1841 census) sometime between 1830/2 and 1834.
Can anyone give me some help please? Is there anywhere I can see the 1831 census on line? Indeed, would that necessarily help in terms of the detail on the 31 census? Any suggestions would be gratefully received. I am not able to easily travel to Chiswick.
Many thanks
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Hi Andy
Welcome to Rootschat ;D
Very few 1821 and 1831 census returns survive, they are not online, and where they do, there is no genealogical data in them. They are a basic head count and only the head of the household is shown.
What are you actually looking for?
Dawn
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Hi
16th January 1842 Holy Trinity Brompton
Joint baptism
George Edward
Edwin Thomas
Mary Sarah
parents Thomas and Sarah Anderson
4 Grosvenor Row
father's occupation police officer
Regards
Valda
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Hi,
There is this baptism 29 June 1828 Chiswick St Nicholas
Edward Thomas Anderson
Born 26 March 1826
Thomas and Sarah Anderson of Turnham Green
Fathers occ. Labourer
Cathy
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Hi
1841 census HO107 609/13 folio 15
Yeomans Row Brompton
Sarah Anderson 24
George Anderson 11
Edwin Anderson 8
all born in county
Regards
Valda
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Hi
Burial
21st August 1831 St Nicholas Chiswick
Edward Thomas Anderson aged 5 Turnham Green
Regards
Valda
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Hi
1851 census HO107 1469 folio 138
19 Hooper Court Brompton
Sarah Anderson 40 Head Widow Hat Binder Marylebone Middlesex
George Anderson 21 Son ? Journeyman Marylebone Middlesex
George Edward married at Holy Trinity Brompton in 1855. He gave his father as Thomas a servant. Deceased isn't given but to add that additional information was the custom of some officials only. Many did not include it, so it doesn't prove one way or the other whether George Edward's father was still alive in 1855.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Dawn
I am actually looking to trace Thomas Anderson back further than 1841, his birth/baptism and his marriage to Sarah.
I have baptism records of George Edward, Edwin Thomas, and the newly born Mary Sarah dated 16/1/1842 when the family lived in Yoemans Row, Brompton. I also have a record of an Edward Thomas born in Turnham Green in 1826, his baptism two years later in 1828, and his death in 1831. Thomas Anderson's wife Sarah (mother to George, Edwin, and I believe Edward) died 20/2/1840, and it is their marriage that I am interested in. There is every indication that they lived in Turnham Green, witness George's later census returns and the Birth/Baptism records of Edward.
The tracing of all this has been complicated by Thomas marrying again to another and different Sarah in Q1 1841 [Sarah Mary Ann Thomas]. Yes that name again but this time her surname/maiden-name!
I can follow Thomas forward from there right up to his death in Q1 1863.
And I can trace George Edward forward with all census records, marriage certificate, and death certificate in 1911.
Hope this is clear. It also answers some of the other kind answers after your post.
I have seen elsewhere in this forum more detailed info allegedly from the 1831 census and it was this sort of hints I was looking for.
Many thanks
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Thanks also to Valda for your replies. I have all this information and more which I have detailed in my reply to Dawn (hope that's OK).
As I say, I am looking to trace Thomas and the first Sarah back further. I say 'first Sarah' because I have found a marriage record of a Thomas Anderson and a Sarah Duffin. Both were widow/widower so maybe Thomas married three times. I was hoping that there were other records from Turnham Green that could verify who the first Sarah was. I have sent for her death certificate but don't hold out much hope for a maiden name.
Many thanks
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Thanks Cath151, as mentioned above I have that information.
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Hi
If you have Thomas' second marriage and have him on the 1851 and 1861 censuses then you know his place of birth and his father's name and occupation?
Census schedules and listings, 1801—1831: an introduction and guide
Lists all the surviving censuses pre 1841 (you need to search under Middlesex
http://www.essex.ac.uk/history/Staff_Research/working-papers/MW-RW-BM.pdf
Examples of the sort of information found in earlier censuses
http://www.nwkfhs.org.uk/dartfordcensus.htm
As Thomas was a police officer in 1842 Metropolitan police records held at The National Archives may also give further information on him.
If Thomas Anderson married Sarah Duffin in 1819 then his birth would be in the C18th. If he is the man on the 1861 census RG9 20 folio 33 and 1851 census HO107 1469 folio 164 then he was born in Kensington circa 1807 which means he would be only 19 at the time of the birth of Edward Thomas who was born in early 1826. It would also mean he would be a widower on his 1841 marriage.
This marriage in the March quarter of 1841
Marriages Mar 1841
Anderson Thomas St James W 1 89
THOMAS Sarah St Jas Wesr 1 89
So this burial for Sarah
Holy Trinity Brompton 20th February 1840
Sarah Anderson aged 38 Grosvenor Row
Information on death certificates do not contain maiden names e.g.
http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consum_dg/groups/dg_digitalassets/@dg/@en/documents/digitalasset/dg_176222.pdf
If you know Mary Sarah was newly born, do you know whether her birth was registered. If it was it will contain her mother's maiden name.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda
Thanks again for your detailed response. You posed some interesting questions which I have tried to answer as follows:-
re Thomas' second marriage. I sent for two certificates on 11th Jan. Sarah's Death & Thomas' second Marriage to Sarah Thomas. They should arrive tomorrow or Wed.
His place of birth is Kensington on both 51 & 61. Turnham Green therefore remains a unresolved/mystery, why would George Edward have this as his place of birth. I had wondered about a connection between the first Sarah and TG.
The info you have found re Thomas Anderson and Sarah Duffin is essentially the same as mine. I have the actual parish record which says widower & widow. I have no way of connecting this Sarah Duffin to the death of Sarah Anderson in Feb 1840.
You mention Grosvenor Row, but this is in fact Yeomans Row.
6 Yeomans Row is the one factor that links everything apart from Edward Thomas Anderson 1826-1832.
George Edward, Edwin Thomas & Mary Sarah were all baptised together on 16/1/1842, abode = 6 Yeomans Row. I have Mary Sarah's birth certificate (yes - mothers maiden name Sarah Thomas), where born = 6 Yeomans Row. Sarah Anderson's (the first one) burial 20th Feb 1840 abode = Yeomans Row. The family of Sarah Mary Ann Thomas live in Yeomans Row (1841 census), parents and younger siblings. There are other facts that link the families from Yeomans Row to George Edward Anderson at his marriage in 1855.
Thanks for the tip re the police archives, I didn't know they existed.
All of which still leaves me to identify the maiden name of the first Sarah who died in 1840 and the probable mother to George Edward. I was hoping for some clue from the 1831 census. There are references to various lists in this post but some mention a visit to Chiswick library which I am not able to do.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,27992.msg402243.html
many thanks
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Hi
From the list link already given - an 1801 census (heads of household and then a count without names) exists for Chiswick. Nothing after that until 1841.
The link given from a previous Rootschat topic seems to be about the 1801 census and rate books from about the same period, plus a list of overseers is mentioned. Parishes entrusted the care of the poor for instance to the parish overseers. They were responsible amongst other things for the collection of the rates which included the distribution of poor relief - so men of some education since they would have to keep accounts.
Rate payers contributed not just to poor relief but to all local services. The rate levied was based on the yearly value of the property. The ratepayer was the person who paid the local taxes and they could be the occupier or owner of the house. Rate books list householders geographically rather than alphabetically. No other members of the family or other personal details are shown.
Hounslow Archives collections
http://www.hounslow.info/libraries/localstudies/familyhistory.htm
You might want to check the West Middlesex Family History Society marriage index which is online with Findmypast for a possible marriage to the first Sarah.
http://www.west-middlesex-fhs.org.uk/content/indexes_general.aspx
George's age would limit the search to just before or possibly just after the birth in March 1826 of Edward Thomas.
Turnham Green and Kensington are about 3 miles apart and you went where the work took you. That might mean meeting your future wife or meeting her where you already lived. A young man of 18 or so might set out to explore the area moving from job to job.
'Despite much rebuilding, the village of Chiswick spread very little between the mid 18th and late 19th centuries. By 1801, with 1,023 inhabitants in 172 houses, it was less populous than Turnham Green, which by 1839 had the greater number of inns.'
Short history of the Metropolitan Police T Division which might be how, if only briefly, Thomas became a policeman.
http://www.chiswickw4.com/default.asp?section=info&link=police/history.htm
Regards
Valda
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Not sure if this will help, but Yeomans Row leads to the rear entrance of the police station in Walton Street and at some points there were some buildings in Yeomans Row that were police "section houses". It could be his house went with his job.
(OH's dad was born in Yeomans Row, not police related though)
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Many thanks ReadyDale, that's a great bit of information I didn't know. How did you find out? Are there maps? It helps tie things in greatly as I have a Geo Anderson, Police Constable, aged 20, at Walton Street Police Station in the 1851 census! I have always associated this with my George Edward Anderson but no proof.
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Thanks again Valda - more good information.
I use Ancestry and don't have membership of Findmypast, too expensive to have both. So if anyone does and comes up with a record I would be very grateful, I could then use the PAYG to view.
regards
Andy
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Many thanks ReadyDale, that's a great bit of information I didn't know. How did you find out? Are there maps?
Andy, we initially found out as it was in the part-completed autobiography my OH's dad had written. It included a desciption of the street when he was young (1920's) and told how, when his own dad died, he was sent to the end of the street to fetch a constable.
Also, the police station is (or certainly was) still there when we paid a visit about 3 years ago. I believe it was now used by diplomatic protection officers (although that is only here say).
As for an old map, try www.old-maps.co.uk. Enter in to the co-rdinates boxes 527440 179170, then select one of the early maps in the "available maps" box to the right. The top one 1850-1851 is the right era, but isn't very detailed. The second, 1869-1878 is a lot more detailed.
Also, you can "see" the street using Google Maps (although bear in mind many of the building have been rebuilt - even since the 20's - as this is quite a sought-after area now, close to Harrods)
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Thanks for that ReadyDale, all this info re the police has been really helpful. I saw the old maps and on one could see Queens Gardens where this family moved to after Yeomans Row. It doesn't exist now so it was good to see it so close to Yeomans.
Andy
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Valda, would you know if Findmypast.com is the exclusive holder of the West Middlesex Family History Society marriage index please? (your post 16/1/2012 refers)
Andy
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There's a basic partial index here available without subscription along with a list of what's included
http://www.angelfire.com/fl/Sumter/Middlesex.html
The one on FindMyPast has been added to
Dawn
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I can completely understand the confusion here.
Turnham Green as mentioned in earlier posts, is in Chiswick. It is a green in the (now) middle of Chiswick which has a late C19 church - Christchurch still operating, but no graveyard.
For the period you are looking at, the parish church would have been St. Nicholas, which is of significant historical interest, including its churchyard which closed in 1854 and includes the graves of both Hogarth and Whistler. (The churchyard re-opened in 1867 following a grant of land by a local benefactor, but for any burials betwen those dates, anyone searching will need to look further afield outside London, in for example, the Woking cemetery.)Thanks to the efforts of the Friends of St Nicholas, the parish registers have been restored.
See this link for further info: http://www.stnicholaschiswick.org/heritage/Archives.shtml
Needless to say, Turnham Green today is VERY exclusive, and many of the original dwellings that would have stood around it during the period that you are researching have long since disappeared. I would be happy to try and help further with any Chiswick-specific question.
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Many thanks for this useful information Cwch. I am going to try to contact them to find my ancestor's (George Edward Anderson) birth/baptism record from the early 1830s.
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Thanks for that ReadyDale, all this info re the police has been really helpful. I saw the old maps and on one could see Queens Gardens where this family moved to after Yeomans Row. It doesn't exist now so it was good to see it so close to Yeomans.
Andy
Hi Andy,
Not sure if you still need it, but there is a large article in this month's (May) edition of "Your Family History" regarding police ancestors and associated records. May be of use.
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Thanks ReadyDale, I'll have a look.....