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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Perthshire => Topic started by: carrumba on Friday 13 January 12 18:40 GMT (UK)
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Hello there all.
Need help with a place name I have not been able to find on any maps but know it existed!
It was part of the Bonhard estate in Perthshire (past Scone and close to Murrayshall). I am tracking a Blair family and have an Alexander Blair appearing in the Horse Tax rolls of 1797-98 (just listed as Bonhard). Bonhard covered Bonhard House and a few different farms as well as a mill so was trying to narrow down the location a bit. On the list of Perthshire Voters for 1832 and 1837 I have found the Blair residence listed as "Finduie of Bonhard". Cannot find this building anywhere so was trying to find the meaning of Finduie but to no avail! The closest I have found is the Geordie word Findie basically meaning "claimed". There is a Finduie Wood near Abernethy but any translation is evading me at the moment.
Any ideas you clever lot? :-)
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The fin- part is quite likely from fionn, meaning white or fair. It is common in placenames. If you go to the National Library of Scotland maps site, you will get free access to maps of Scotland going back several centuries and detailed Ordnance Survey ones from the 19th century. Roy's military map of 1747-1755 is also available there.
Graham.
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Thanks for that GR2 - yup.. I have trawled many of the Perthshire maps from third edition OS back to maps from the 1680's.. no joy! Will keep looking.
Interesting idea on fin being from fionn....hmmm....will look into that possibility further.
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Just some ideas...
Have you considered checking Alexander's Will? From Scotlands People:
Alexander Blair, Farmer at Bonhard in the Parish of Scone, 1 Aug. 1851 - Perth Sheriff Court, 11 pages.
Also, original census images which include before and after address can sometimes help to pin pointing specific addresses and locations if you can get a better indication of the the enumerator's walk.
FreeCen www.freecen.org.uk, for example, have:
New Balboughty
Scone Dairy
Moor Of Scone
Bonhard - with Alexander Blair and family
Newlands Of Borthard
Bonhard Cottages
...then back to Bonhard....maybe this won't help in this case! Perhaps 1851 is worth also checking this way.
Monica
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Here's a link to sasines. This may help you pinpoint the property. I note in the 1851 census that Alexander farmed 118 acres. I don't know if he owned the farm or was a tenant.
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,26232.0.html
Regards,
flst
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Scotlandsplaces have a copy of a map of the Bonhard estate;
www.rootschat.com/links/0jos/
Added: Link shortened to fit page.
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Department of unhelpful information tells me that there is a cup-marked stone at Finduire near Aberfeldy. http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/site/7423/finduie_wood.html
-duie or -dowie in a place name might be from Gaelic dubh meaning dark. If so you have, potentially, an interesting name, 'black white' or 'dark light'. However I recommend the Scottish Place Names Society http://www.spns.org.uk/ who will probably have researched it properly. There are a lot of very spurious place name interpretations out there, resulting from exactly the process I used to get to 'dark light'. So don't trust me on this ;)
As for where it is, does it occur in the 1841 census, or are your Blairs just listed under Bonhard again?
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1841 just says Bonhard occupation farmer
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FreeCen www.freecen.org.uk, for example, have:
New Balboughty
Scone Dairy
Moor Of Scone
Bonhard - with Alexander Blair and family
Newlands Of Borthard
Bonhard Cottages
...then back to Bonhard....maybe this won't help in this case! Perhaps 1851 is worth also checking this way.
Monica
The above list is from the 1841 census. Don't think this area has been transcribed yet by FreeCen for the 1851 census so original image would help here.
Monica
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Department of unhelpful information tells me that there is a cup-marked stone at Finduire near Aberfeldy. http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/site/7423/finduie_wood.html
-duie or -dowie in a place name might be from Gaelic dubh meaning dark. If so you have, potentially, an interesting name, 'black white' or 'dark light'. However I recommend the Scottish Place Names Society http://www.spns.org.uk/ who will probably have researched it properly. There are a lot of very spurious place name interpretations out there, resulting from exactly the process I used to get to 'dark light'. So don't trust me on this ;)
As for where it is, does it occur in the 1841 census, or are your Blairs just listed under Bonhard again?
Hmmm.. thankyou for that. I find place names and places fascinating when doing Genealogy and gives an insight, potentially, into the myths and stories the people you are researching may have talked about or known.
Interesting that you mention the cup marked stone near Aberfeldy as there is a standing stone at Bonhard that is also cup marked. I wonder if there is a lost connection between Finduie (Bonhard) and Finduie Wood, Aberfeldy- perhaps not but the meaning of the word may shed a light on it. Actually, when i look at Canmore, it is closer to Fortingall. Hmmmm.
The Blairs show as just in Bonhard in every census or record I have seen so far. Bonhard seems to cover an estate around Bonhard house and includes a number of farms and a mill. I'll need to have a look at the map someone posted a link to earlier (thanks! :-) ) I'll let you know how i get on.
Thanks everyone for the help!
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Scotlandsplaces have a copy of a map of the Bonhard estate;
www.rootschat.com/links/0jos/
Added: Link shortened to fit page.
Thanks for the info but it's the wrong Bonhard! This one is up near Laurencekirk rather than by Scone. ;)
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Sorry about that. I thought I'd entered Perthshire in my search. Obviously not! :-[
flst
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Don't worry about it. It's not *that* far away to be honest and I wouldn't be surprised if they were connected in some fashion way back when. Someone may have taken the name with them when moving southwards... who knows! :-)
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Alexander Blair (1870 - 1851) of Bonhard was my GGGrandfather, through his daughter Euphemia. IŽd be very happy to share details of what I know, and I would also be very interested in anything you have dug up!
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Hi,
I've just stumbled over this interesting post. I think I can answer the placename query. My 5x Gt Grandfather was Alexander Macduff of Bonhard (1698-1765). Alexander was a merchant and miller in Perth in the early part of the 18th century. In the 1740s he had become wealthy enough to purchase the Bonhard estate (otherwise known as Pockmiln or Springfield). Alexander was descended from the Macduffs of Fandowie, or Findowie, in Strathbraan, between Dunkeld and Amulree (the same place as previously mentioned, south of Aberfeldy). The Macduffs had been in Strathbraan since the twelfth century and had been granted the feudal barony in 1431. It had taken from them when Alexander's Great Grandfather was hanged for his part in the Gowrie Conspiracy in August 1600. Evidently the farm tenanted by your Blair family was named after the old family stamping ground!
I have read somewhere, but cannot for the life of me find the reference again, that Fandowie simply derives from the Gaelic for Church or Burying place of the Duffs. Alexander named other farms on Bonhard after other properties he had owned or leased, including Blackcraigs which Alexander had let in the 1730s. I'm afraid I don't know which of the present farms was Finduie of Bonhard, but it should be possible to identify it from the census records and a map. I'd be interested to hear if you figure it out! Looking at the list of names of farms somebody found on freecen, I'd have thought it would be close to the site of the present day airport.
I hope that this is of some help!
Robert
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Just a couple of wee niggles, neither of which will advance the matter at all.
First, there is nothing to be read into the location of cup-marked stones, which occur all over Scotland. They are much older than the times we are discussing, and their meaning is unknown, forbye and besides.
More to the point, if the stone is nearer Fortingall than Aberfeldy, then it's nowhere near Strathbraan, which is in the opposite direction from Aberfeldy.
So the Department of Unhelpful Information was doing an excellent job in producing a red herring, for which I apologise profusely :-\
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Some excellent and fascinating information. Is especially interesting in the context of various places in Perthshire including Glenshee as well as the previously mentioned. There always seem to be Cairns or standing stones in the vicinity so would fit with the idea of the name relating to burial grounds. Saying that, the association with cairns etc could also be coincidental- i'll guess we'll never know for sure. Would certainly paint an interesting picture, if your hypothesis as the word deriving from Duff burial ground, of places in Perthshire and therefore lands claimed by the Duff family. ;D
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I, too, recall reading that Fan Dowie referred to the burial grounds of the Duffs. (It was "on line" and I'm sure it could be found by Googling under Fan Dowie.)
It seems very likely that Dowie comes from Duff, which was spelt Dubh. In the genitive case I think this becomes dhuibh or perhaps duibh, pronounced something like "dooee"
IanB
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Hi,
I've found the reference I was looking for:
http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/catalogue/adsdata/arch-352-1/dissemination/pdf/vol_019/19_041_045.pdf
It comes from the Proceedings of the Society of Antiquaries of Scotland (Vol 19, 1884-5). The useful bit is at page 3. Dubh is pronounced Doo, and Dhuibhe does become Dooie. Obviously the standing stones at Fandowie date from long before the Macduffs settled in their vicinity, but their presence may have encouraged early settlers in the district to create their burying ground there, rather than elsewhere. They may have had pre-Christian religious significance, which would simply have been adopted by their medieval descendants.
Sadly the Macduffs are not as influential as they were in the twelfth century! More's the shame!
Robert
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Hi,
Just a quick update to say that when looking through the Perthshire Constitutional for 1851 looking for an obituary, I came across an advert offering "the Farm of Easter Bonhard, consisting of Fandowie and Cairneyhill" for let, so the Blair's home was somewhere on the modern Easter Bonhard Farm.
Hope this helps.
Robert