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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Pauline H on Wednesday 11 January 12 07:24 GMT (UK)
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After purchasing in total 5 certificates/printouts I feel I am no further ahead. Her d.c names her Helena. Her b.c names her Ellen and it appears that she continued her life as Ellen until she died. However on the b.c. it states Ellen Roberts born 08.06.1863 at Ballarat West to Edward Roberts and Mary Caulfield (because I found no record of this, it is being looked into. Ellen's b.c. states her parents married in Melbourne in August 1862). On the d.c. calculation Ellen must have emigrated to New Zealand when she was 15 (no info on this at all) Ellen had 2 brothers (twins) born in Ballarat in 1865 (same parents). I obtained Ellen's daughters (also named Ellen) b.c. hoping to obtain more info but it only states the mother as Ellen Roberts age 42 born in Ballarat. Here lies one little piece I cannot register - if she was age 42 in 1903, this would mean Ellen (the mother) would have been born in 1861. Which certificate should I believe? I am inclined to go with the b.c. from Australia as it gives far more info and corresponds with Ellen's death. Ohhhh dear!! :)
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Previous thread:
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,572741.0.html
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My personal view, I would tend to rely on the birth registration, particularly if it shows that the infant was present when the birth was being registered.... There's a huge physical difference between an infant and a two year old, and that difference should be noticeable to the clerk recording the information.
Cheers, JM
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The Victorian birth certificates detail whether or not the infant was present. Was infant Ellen present at the registration? I would also rely on the information on the birth certificate.
There is no ROBERT/CAULFIED marriage registered in 1862. What were the parents' ages on the birth certificate? It would be interesting to see that date of marriage on the siblings birth certs. I find it a bit odd considering they were married in Melbourne that there is no registration listed. If it had taken place in rural Victoria in that era then the possibility of the marriage registration not arriving at the Victorian Registry could have been considered. Perhaps they never married.
Frankly I don't think it is a good idea to become fixed on the given name and variations, especially if all other information 'matches'. Information on death certificates only good as the knowledge of the informant.
Which certificate should I believe?
I am inclined to go with the b.c. from Australia as it gives far more info and corresponds with Ellen's death.
Pauline
You have answered your own question ;D
Cheers ;D
Cando
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I have been looking for information about Ellen Roberts for ten years as she disappears from our records age 41. She was my great great grandmother and had 12 children to my great great grandfather Orlando (Hannibal Winnie). My great grandmother told my grandmother that when she was five her mother simply disappeared (she would have been 41) and was never heard from again. Would you mind sharing information with me Pauline, about this interesting woman's life? I have been researching her for so long. Did you know about her past?
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Hi Scullywully, It has been over 8 months since Pauline had her last post, but hopefully she will get your notification. Meanwhile welcome to Rootschat ;D
I will keep an eye out for further developments from Pauline maybe she has further to offer on Ellen Roberts. ???
Neil
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Hi, I meant to ask if you have the marriage of Orlando and Ellen ???
Neil :D
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Hi, I meant to ask if you have the marriage of Orlando and Ellen ???
Neil :D
Hi Neil. Ellen and Orlando never married as Ellen was still married to her first husband Daniel who she married as a teenager. Ellen and Orlando got together when Daniel sold her - with her agreement - to him for ten shillings and sixpence. It made the papers and I have the news articles from that period. I guess she had to wait for Daniel to die before she could marry anyone - I think divorce was only affordable for the very rich in those days...? I am glad to know she had a happier life when she left my great great grandfather. I have photos of her twin brothers and would love to see a photo of her.
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Hi scullywully :)
Been fossicking around the records and found the news items. So we have things in perspective
Ellen's first marriage
1877/2180
ROBERTS Ellen
McPHERSON Daniel
Birth
1879/4899
McPHERSON Malcolm
Mother Ellen Father Daniel
And then the elopement with Charles NASH and subsequent sale of Ellen by Daniel McPHERSON to Orlando WINNIE for 10/6.
Orlando's first marriage was on 18 Feb 1877 at St John's Presbyterian Church, Willis Street, Wellington. Orlando Honeyball MINNIE was a farmer, 30 years old and a bachelor. Emma PITT was 23 years and a spinster. Rev James PATERSON was the minister. Emma died on 31 Jan 1878 the same day as a birth of a daughter.
Children born to Ellen McPHERSON nee ROBERTS and Orlando WINNIE who did not marry.
1881/17050 WINNIE Edith Ellen Mother Ellen Father Orlando Henry
1882/14625 WINNIE Rose Florence Mother Ellen Father Orlando Hannibal
1884/1931 WINNIE William Henry Mother Ellen Father Orlands
1885/10726 WINNIE Francis Earle Mother Ellen Father Orlando
1887/6028 WINNIE Jessie Agnes Ellen Orlando
1890/6641 Winnie Francis Earle Ellen Orlando Hannibal
1892/10351 Winnie Ernest John Ellen Orlando Hannibal
1894/13636 Winnie Harry Orlando Ellen Orlando Hannibal
1896/17092 Winnie Hector Vincent Ellen Orlando
1897/16005 Winnie Percy Albert Ellen Orlando
1899/12757 Winnie Myrtle Lena Ellen Orlando
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Blast...pressed the wrong key and haven't finished. Looks a bit messy as I hadn't finished formatting.
From other info found on the web you appear to be descended from Myrtle Lena.
From Pauline
Hi, Helena (Ellen) Roberts born 1863 at Ballarat. (no other date).
Mother: Mary Ann Corfield (Caulfield), Father: Edward Roberts.
Siblings: Twins Thomas Earl and Henry Roberts born 1865 at Ballarat. (no other date).
Helena died on 6th August 1928 and was buried with William Smith died 2nd January 1929 at Bromley Cemetary.
She lived in New Zealand for 50 years.
Before Helena and William died, they married in Christchurch on the 22nd January 1925 after living together for many years.
The m.c. states William became widowed in 1905 and Helena (spinster). There were 3 children, one son named William who came from William's first marriage to Emily Hawton and two daughters one named Ellen Roberts (my grandmother) and Violet. I have Ellen's (daughter) m.c. from her second marriage, stating that William Smith was her father. The info I have has been calculated from dates on the certificates and what little my own mother knows. If there is anything more specific please let me know.
William stated he was widowed in 1905 and if he is the father of Ellen and Violet, he would have been in a relationship with Ellen while his first wife was alive.
Births
1903/12083
ROBERTS Ellen Mother Ellen Father not recorded
1905
ROBERTS Violet Mother Ellen Father not recorded
So you are seeking information about Ellen between the dates of the last child's birth and her death on 16 Aug 1928.
I note that Orlando Hannival WINNIE died 14 Apr 1924 aged 77 years ie born c1847. Year of birth same as parish record of his marriage in 1877. He was 16 years older than Ellen.
Have you thought about posting a request on the New Zealand board [and linking this thread] for help with locating information about Ellen and William eg in the electoral rolls?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,299.0.html
Cheers
Cando
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Thanks for all that. Yes Myrtle was my great Grandmother who was 5 when Ellen disappeared around 1903 or 4. I'm keen to find out what happened when she left as she seemed to disappear from all records around age 41. Glad to know she was around a bit longer. She had quite the dramatic life...
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Blast...pressed the wrong key and haven't finished. Looks a bit messy as I hadn't finished formatting.
From other info found on the web you appear to be descended from Myrtle Lena.
From Pauline
Hi, Helena (Ellen) Roberts born 1863 at Ballarat. (no other date).
Mother: Mary Ann Corfield (Caulfield), Father: Edward Roberts.
Siblings: Twins Thomas Earl and Henry Roberts born 1865 at Ballarat. (no other date).
Helena died on 6th August 1928 and was buried with William Smith died 2nd January 1929 at Bromley Cemetary.
She lived in New Zealand for 50 years.
Before Helena and William died, they married in Christchurch on the 22nd January 1925 after living together for many years.
The m.c. states William became widowed in 1905 and Helena (spinster). There were 3 children, one son named William who came from William's first marriage to Emily Hawton and two daughters one named Ellen Roberts (my grandmother) and Violet. I have Ellen's (daughter) m.c. from her second marriage, stating that William Smith was her father. The info I have has been calculated from dates on the certificates and what little my own mother knows. If there is anything more specific please let me know.
William stated he was widowed in 1905 and if he is the father of Ellen and Violet, he would have been in a relationship with Ellen while his first wife was alive.
Births
1903/12083
ROBERTS Ellen Mother Ellen Father not recorded
1905
ROBERTS Violet Mother Ellen Father not recorded
So you are seeking information about Ellen between the dates of the last child's birth and her death on 16 Aug 1928.
I note that Orlando Hannival WINNIE died 14 Apr 1924 aged 77 years ie born c1847. Year of birth same as parish record of his marriage in 1877. He was 16 years older than Ellen.
Have you thought about posting a request on the New Zealand board [and linking this thread] for help with locating information about Ellen and William eg in the electoral rolls?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,299.0.html
Cheers
Cando
Hi I have Ellen and William's death certificates and their marriage certificate if of interest
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I have been looking for information about Ellen Roberts for ten years as she disappears from our records age 41. She was my great great grandmother and had 12 children to my great great grandfather Orlando (Hannibal Winnie). My great grandmother told my grandmother that when she was five her mother simply disappeared (she would have been 41) and was never heard from again. Would you mind sharing information with me Pauline, about this interesting woman's life? I have been researching her for so long. Did you know about her past?
hi, just checking to see that you received my previous message about Ellen and William..
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Ellen disappears from the Electoral roll for good when she leaves life with Orlando age 41. She seems to fly under the radar the second half of her life as she tended to live with men and take their names but not actually be married (since she was still technically married to Daniel)
I already have Orlando's electoral records. Yes Orlando was much older! Thanks to everyone for their help, I really appreciate it. ;D
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Ellen disappears from the Electoral roll for good when she leaves life with Orlando age 41. She seems to fly under the radar the second half of her life as she tended to live with men and take their names but not actually be married (since she was still technically married to Daniel)
I already have Orlando's electoral records. Yes Orlando was much older! Thanks to everyone for their help, I really appreciate it. ;D
Hi - I did not know about Ellen being married to Daniel, but I do have Ellen's marriage certificate to William. Ellen (my great grandmother) and William had 3 children, William John born 1902, Ellen born 1903(my grandmother) and Violet born 1905. Ellen (my grandmother) had 5 children. My mother is the last surviving daughter. Without checking the certificate Ellen and William after living together, married about 3 or 4 years prior to their death. I have those certificates also. Sorry if you have received an overload of replies from me, but only because I wasn't too sure who got what message. I would love to know about her life up until the time she and William got together.
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[/quote]Hi - I did not know about Ellen being married to Daniel, but I do have Ellen's marriage certificate to William. Ellen (my great grandmother) and William had 3 children, William John born 1902, Ellen born 1903(my grandmother) and Violet born 1905. Ellen (my grandmother) had 5 children. My mother is the last surviving daughter. Without checking the certificate Ellen and William after living together, married about 3 or 4 years prior to their death. I have those certificates also. Sorry if you have received an overload of replies from me, but only because I wasn't too sure who got what message. I would love to know about her life up until the time she and William got together.
[/quote]
HI Pauline. I have sent you an email and photos of Ellen's twin brothers, youngest daughter to Orlando born 1899 and grandaughter (my grandmother). Hope you enjoy seeing them.
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Hi - I did not know about Ellen being married to Daniel, but I do have Ellen's marriage certificate to William. Ellen (my great grandmother) and William had 3 children, William John born 1902, Ellen born 1903(my grandmother) and Violet born 1905. Ellen (my grandmother) had 5 children. My mother is the last surviving daughter. Without checking the certificate Ellen and William after living together, married about 3 or 4 years prior to their death. I have those certificates also. Sorry if you have received an overload of replies from me, but only because I wasn't too sure who got what message. I would love to know about her life up until the time she and William got together.
[/quote]
HI Pauline. I have sent you an email and photos of Ellen's twin brothers, youngest daughter to Orlando born 1899 and grandaughter (my grandmother). Hope you enjoy seeing them.
[/quote]As yet nothing has come through to me, but will look forward to receiving your email so that I can send you a copy of Ellens marriage certificate to William and her death certificate. I have been to the cemetary where she was buried, but unfortunately the graves are so old and some nameless. I have details of the plot no. etc. The earthquakes we have experienced from 2010 did a lot of damage to many of the cemetaries in Christchurch.
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Hi I have just become a member of this site, I am the great grand daughter of Ellen Roberts and Orlando Winnie his name was really Orlando Honeyball he was born in Shotley Suffolk England, I have for years tried to find out what happened to her, Orlando had a lot of contact with my grandparents Francis Earl Winnie and his wife. We have never found the marriage certificate for Orlando and Ellen. Who is Daniel that you say she was married to. Do you know anything about her parents.
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Hi Soojane I am also Ellen and Hannibal's Gt Gt Grandaughter.(he changed his name to Hannibal Winnie as you will know). I researched Ellen for years and a cousin and myself have pieced together her very interesting life - she was very difficult to track down due to name changes and her unconventional life. Orlando and Ellen were never married. Daniel was her husband originally but after an ill fated elopment with someone to the South Island and it made the papers, he sold her to the much older Orlando Winnie for 7 shillings and 6 pence (it made the papers, I can show you the newspaper articles. Wife selling was considered a very outdated and barbaric practice). This is why there was no marriage certificate. They had many children as you will know but she left Orlando for someone else when my gt gt grandmother was five (Myrtle Lena Winnie). She lived with this other man and had two children with him. They married late, I think they were in their 60s but I would have to check the details as I'm not at home at the moment. A cousin is researching her parents currently. If you would like to contact me at my yahoo uk address it's * I can give you the very long and complicated story of her life and the several articles about her that got into the newspapers.
(*) Moderator Comment: e-mail removed in accordance with RootsChat policy,
to avoid spamming and other abuses.
Please use the Personal Message (PM) system for exchanging personal data.
New members must make at least three postings before being allowed to use the PM facility.
See Help-Page: http://www.rootschat.com/help/pms.php
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Blast...pressed the wrong key and haven't finished. Looks a bit messy as I hadn't finished formatting.
From other info found on the web you appear to be descended from Myrtle Lena.
From Pauline
Hi, Helena (Ellen) Roberts born 1863 at Ballarat. (no other date).
Mother: Mary Ann Corfield (Caulfield), Father: Edward Roberts.
Siblings: Twins Thomas Earl and Henry Roberts born 1865 at Ballarat. (no other date).
Helena died on 6th August 1928 and was buried with William Smith died 2nd January 1929 at Bromley Cemetary.
She lived in New Zealand for 50 years.
Before Helena and William died, they married in Christchurch on the 22nd January 1925 after living together for many years.
The m.c. states William became widowed in 1905 and Helena (spinster). There were 3 children, one son named William who came from William's first marriage to Emily Hawton and two daughters one named Ellen Roberts (my grandmother) and Violet. I have Ellen's (daughter) m.c. from her second marriage, stating that William Smith was her father. The info I have has been calculated from dates on the certificates and what little my own mother knows. If there is anything more specific please let me know.
William stated he was widowed in 1905 and if he is the father of Ellen and Violet, he would have been in a relationship with Ellen while his first wife was alive.
Births
1903/12083
ROBERTS Ellen Mother Ellen Father not recorded
1905
ROBERTS Violet Mother Ellen Father not recorded
So you are seeking information about Ellen between the dates of the last child's birth and her death on 16 Aug 1928.
I note that Orlando Hannival WINNIE died 14 Apr 1924 aged 77 years ie born c1847. Year of birth same as parish record of his marriage in 1877. He was 16 years older than Ellen.
Have you thought about posting a request on the New Zealand board [and linking this thread] for help with locating information about Ellen and William eg in the electoral rolls?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,299.0.html
Cheers
Cando
I have two pics of Francis Earl (ponty), he was a drummer played for hutt civic band. percy won national drum competition twice... Would anyone like to share information?
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link=topic=575178.msg5685232#msg5685232 date=1435665593]
Blast...pressed the wrong key and haven't finished. Looks a bit messy as I hadn't finished formatting.
From other info found on the web you appear to be descended from Myrtle Lena.
From Pauline
Hi, Helena (Ellen) Roberts born 1863 at Ballarat. (no other date).
Mother: Mary Ann Corfield (Caulfield), Father: Edward Roberts.
Siblings: Twins Thomas Earl and Henry Roberts born 1865 at Ballarat. (no other date).
Helena died on 6th August 1928 and was buried with William Smith died 2nd January 1929 at Bromley Cemetary.
She lived in New Zealand for 50 years.
Before Helena and William died, they married in Christchurch on the 22nd January 1925 after living together for many years.
The m.c. states William became widowed in 1905 and Helena (spinster). There were 3 children, one son named William who came from William's first marriage to Emily Hawton and two daughters one named Ellen Roberts (my grandmother) and Violet. I have Ellen's (daughter) m.c. from her second marriage, stating that William Smith was her father. The info I have has been calculated from dates on the certificates and what little my own mother knows. If there is anything more specific please let me know.
William stated he was widowed in 1905 and if he is the father of Ellen and Violet, he would have been in a relationship with Ellen while his first wife was alive.
Births
1903/12083
ROBERTS Ellen Mother Ellen Father not recorded
1905
ROBERTS Violet Mother Ellen Father not recorded
So you are seeking information about Ellen between the dates of the last child's birth and her death on 16 Aug 1928.
I note that Orlando Hannival WINNIE died 14 Apr 1924 aged 77 years ie born c1847. Year of birth same as parish record of his marriage in 1877. He was 16 years older than Ellen.
Have you thought about posting a request on the New Zealand board [and linking this thread] for help with locating information about Ellen and William eg in the electoral rolls?
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,299.0.html
Cheers
Cando
[/quote]
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NZ BDM on-line records research- Orlando Hannibal Winnie m. 14 Feb 1877 Folio 313, to Emma Pitt who d. aged 25 years on 31 Jan 1878 Folio 779, b. 12 Feb 1852 Folio 1919. Daughter Emma Eliza Ann Winnie b. and d. same day as her mother Emma. Subsequent children have Ellen as the mother. Paperspast NZ ** Evening Post, Volume XVI, Issue 43, 2 February 1878. Page 1. Rose of the Valley Lodge, 4319. Officers and Brothers of the above Lodge are respectfully invited to attend the Funeral of the late wife of Brother Orlando H. Winnie, which will leave her father's residence (Mr. Henry Pitt), Pipitea Point, on Sunday, 3rd February, at 4 o'clock p.m. (Henry Pitt md Ann Smith 07 June 1852 Folio 46. An 'Ann Pitt' was bd. at Wellington NZ 04 Jan 1878 #99675. Not verified). Info is a sideways part of the family of my research. my Great Aunt Louise Marie (Rene) Mullany.
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Thanks Scottish dancer. Saw your Aunt and family on Findmygrave website. Only have a pic of Harry and his army records. My mum mentioned Peter when she was alive. Wonder if Harry kept in touch with our side, Hectors.
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Hi dhouston - it was a Harry Roberts (b.1940, Nelson NZ) who thought that i check out rootschat to see if an answer could be found to the question. It most likely made more questions - but obviously after Emma died, BDM records show the rest of the family had an 'Ellen' as the mother. Harry Roberts and his wife Yvonne (b. 1942 NZ) will be visiting us in NZ 11-12 Feb, and then on to Nelson to visit Yvonne's family. My husband and I will also be in that area 23-27 Feb and hopefully will be able to unravel some family ties. It is with the Mullany/Mullaney connection of the family - mother spoke often of Rene (md Winnie) and Tot who md Goodman, this latter side is the relation i am going to see. Harry's dad Anthony md Ethel Maureen Winnie, second child of Rene and Harry Orlando Winnie, s/o Orlando Hannibal Winnie and Ellen Orlando. Have been in Levin today, where the family interred the ashes of Robt Wm Mullany, s/o of Bill and g'son of Hugh and Susan Mullany - if that makes sense to you? Thanking you and kind regards - Scottishdancer