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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (West Riding) => Topic started by: mgc on Tuesday 10 January 12 18:43 GMT (UK)
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I have a December 1838 marriage certificate, Sheffield, Cathedral St. Peter, whereon the Witnesses are given as: Sophia Holden and Alfred Holden.
Evidently, these two persons (Sophia Holden and Alfred Holden) do not show-up in Sheffield in the 1841 census, and I'm hoping that somebody will be kind enough to lookup where they are in 1841. They may or may not appear together, and not necessarily in south Yorkshire, but wherever they are my guess is that they would most likely be within some reasonable radius of Sheffield, i.e., north DBY etc.
Also, they may appear with the the surname "Houlden" as opposed to "Holden."
Thanks in advance for any help with this... and as they most often are - my fingers are crossed.
Mike
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If anybody has taken a look at this Holden problem and is stymied, welcome to the club.
Anyway, this is what I just found out:
It appears Alfred Holden married Sophia Oates in Rotherham some time in the 4th qtr of 1838; just prior to their appearance as witnesses at the marriage I mentioned earlier which also occurred in that same qtr ... 25 Dec 1838 to be exact.
If Alfred and Sophia don't appear anywhere in Britain in 1841, then I wouldn't be surpised if, as a newly married couple, they emigrated. If they emigrated to the US I would be even less surprised.
Mike
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there is a 48 year old alfred holden in sheffield in 1861 he is widowed his occ is slater
there is a death in 1860 in sheffield of a sophia holden
having said that i cannot find them in 1841 or 1851
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Hi Wozzle, that is interesting re the Alfred Holden occ Slater, as their is this 1841:-
And they are with Harriett Oates aged 15 and Joseph Oates aged 7?
Alfred Holden 25 occ Slater Not born in County
Sophia Holden 35 Not born in County
Residing at Grays Inn Lane, Holborn, London, Middx.
Census Ref HO107/670/ 6/35/ 5
Keyboard86
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Hi Wozzle, that is interesting re the Alfred Holden occ Slater, as their is this 1841:-
And they are with Harriett Oates aged 15 and Joseph Oates aged 7?
Alfred Holden 25 occ Slater Not born in County
Sophia Holden 35 Not born in County
Residing at Grays Inn Lane, Holborn, London, Middx.
Census Ref HO107/670/ 6/35/ 5
Keyboard86
that must be them especially with the name oates cropping up
well done keyboard86
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Hi again, only a possible, but I wonder who this lot are in 1851?
Thomas Smith 40 occ Slater b Sheffield
Sophia 40 b Mortlake, Surrey
Joseph Oates Son 16 b Sheffield
Residing at 7, Brad Street, Lambeth, Surrey.
Census Ref HO107/1569/286/12
Keyboard86
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or this
joseph oates son of george oates and sophia oates born may 1834 baptised on the 16th feb 1881 at st philips church sheffield
ext.rec.I.G.I.
could sophia have married george oates they then have a child joseph oates
george oates dies before 1838
sophia oates then marries alfred holden
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There is a George Oates who died 1837 Sheffield age 47 in the NB's
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Thanks Dob, Woz, KeyBd ... It appears they did stay in England after all, and that is at least that part of the puzzle sorted, and for that I am grateful -- Thanks much!
What started this problem was determining if there was a familial relationship between Alfred Holden and one or the other of the wedded pair that he and wife Sophia were witnessing for in Sheffield, Dec of 1838.
Intuitively I suspected that it may be Alfred Holden who was familialy related to the witnessed-for groom in Dec 1838 - the groom being a certain John Glossop, b. 1816, Sheffield, and per the John Glossop marriage cert., was the son of a certain George Glossop. Per the IGI the only George Glossop I found who had a son John born in 1816 in Sheffield, was the George Glossop who married a certain Elizabeth Sarah Houlden in Sheffield in 1809.
With that, I tentatively assumed a familial surname correlation between Alfred Holden and Elizabeth Sarah (Houlden) Glossop.... as in: maybe Alfred Holden was a nephew of Elizabeth, and hence may have been John Glossop's cousin on his maternal side.
It gets better (or worse) .... All of this to prove or disprove a stipulation that apppears in a 1934 souvenir publication in Sullivan County, Pennsylvania, USA (of flipping all places) which states: "John (aka Jack) Glossop was the son of Mary Glossop..." -- a claim which I am now more or less disputing, as I am suspecting that Mary Glossop was more likely a marital in-law of the above George Glossop, i.e, George Glossop's sister-in-law, and hence an aunt of George's son John Glossop - he being the guy married in in Sheffield in Dec. of 1838, and for whom Alfred Holden was a witness. ??? Mind-bending to say the least!
Mike
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Hi Mike, glad to see it has, or at least looks like been sorted out, but that 1851 for Thomas Smith really has me ( at least) puzzled!
Who was the Sophia who married possiby George Oates?
When was Harriet Oates christened, also why large gap between Harriett and Joseph Oates?
More questions than answers!!
Keyboard86
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I'm with Keyboard on this one... the 10 year or so age gap between Alfred and Sophia makes me a bit suspicious about her relationship with both Harriet and Joseph OATES.
Time to do some digging I think.
Cheers
Karenlee
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Okay then.
Familysearch.org has...
Baptism Record
St Phillip Sheffield York
OATES Joseph son of George and Sophia OATES
Baptised 16th Feb 1881
Birth date May 1834
Oops sorry Wozzle just saw your earlier post with this information
There is also...
Baptism Record
St Peter's Cathedral
Sheffield Yorkshire
OATES Charles son of George and Sophia
Baptised 17th Feb 1828
Father's Occupation Filesmith
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Just to make things even more obscure..... ;)
Marriage Register
St Marylebone
Westminster
12th October 1856
Joseph OATES of full age Bachelor Slater of Henrietta Street Father = George OATES File Cutter Deceased
Sarah BRAY of full age Spinster of Trinity District Father = William BRAY Harness Maker
The groom signed and the bride made her mark
Witnesses were William BRAY and Sophia Holden SMITH
The groom's occupation, father's name and the female witness are intriguing
Cheers
Karenlee
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Well done Karenlee, as I went to bed up popped your posts!
1861 census
Joseph Oates 26 occ File Cutter b Sheffield
Sarah 26 b Lambeth Surrey
Residing at Channing Street, Sheffield
Census ref RG09/3464/71/20
Keyboard
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Trying to find a baptism for Harriet but failing. There is a Harriet born Sheffield about 1826 on the 1851 Census married to a John WILEY. I wonder??
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Gotcha
Baptism Record
St Peter and Paul Cathedral
Sheffield Yorkshire
OATES Harriet Ann dau of George and Sophis
Father's occupation Filesmith
Baptised 26th Oct 1823
Cheers
Karenlee
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Baptism Record
Sheffield St Peter and St Paul Cathedral
OATES George son of George and Sophia
Bapt 23rd Oct 1825
Born 23rd Feb 1825
Sheffield St Peter and St Paul Cathedral
OATES William son of George and Sophia
Father's Occupation Filesmith
Born 29th Jan 1830
Bapt 15th Dec 1830
Sheffield St Peter and St Paul Cathedral
OATES Joseph son of George and Sophia
Father's Occupation Filesmith
Born 25th Sept 1833
Batp 30th Apr 1837
Sheffield St Peter and St Paul Cathedral
OATES Daniel son of George and Sophia
Father's Occupation Filesmith
Born 16th Dec 1819
Baptised 14th Apr 1820
Fa
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Hi Mike, glad to see it has, or at least looks like been sorted out, but that 1851 for Thomas Smith really has me ( at least) puzzled!
Who was the Sophia who married possiby George Oates?
When was Harriet Oates christened, also why large gap between Harriett and Joseph Oates?
More questions than answers!!
Keyboard86
And Thanks Karenlee and KeyBd! Yes, the waters get muddier and more complicated with each post. Seems like I opened a can of worms... all in the name of another problem entirely!
I have the Cathedral St Peter, Sheffield marriage index, and no George Oates & Sophia marriage shows-up in any of the expected periods, (1823 or earlier) so maybe theirs was a Rotherham marriage too (same as her later marriage to Alfred Holden). And yes,,,, who is Thomas Smith with whom she and son Joseph are residing in 1851!?... in Surrey! -- or is that the mother of all coincidences as it pertains to names, dates and ages!?
OK, so, presumptively:
Sophia marries George Oates, (who, it appears, is considerably older than she), somewhere in S. YKS prior to 1823 and George dies in 1837 but not before having fathered two children with Sophia (assuming she is the birth-mother of both Harriet and Joseph). A year after the death of husband George Oates, Sophia marries Alfred Holden (who is himself half her age) in the 4th qtr of 1838 in Rotherham, and they almost immediately move to London (maybe occupationally-related as that pertains to Alfred being a slater) ... they seperate or divorce prior to 1851, and she takes up with (or more correctly marries) Thomas Smith in Surrey... Meanwhile, Alfred Holden heads back to Sheffield, where in 1861 he is recorded as a widower, (a census term of his own choosing which he prefers over "divorced"), prior to which she, having seen the light, leaves Thomas Smith, and follows Alfred back up to Sheffield, where, incredibly, she does in fact die in 1860, thus lending some indirect validity to Alfred's "widowed" status claim in the 1861 census.
Sorted!! ;D .... (or maybe not)
(And no, none of these are related to me, thank goodness)
Mike
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Mike, never ever say that they are not related, you never know!!
In 1871 Joseph Oates has a nephew Clement Oates aged 15 and niece Harriet A 11 with him and Sarah (Now b Middx)
1861 census if someone could look at original for any more info:-
George Oates 36 occ File Cutter b London
Hannah M 30 b Wadsley Yorks
Ellenor 6 b Sheffield
Oates son 5 b Sheffield
Harriett A 2 b Sheffield
Residing at Channing Street, Sheffield
Census ref RG10/3464/71/19
If the Sophia b Mortlake in 1851 is same one, in combination with above birth possibly in London, I would check for a London marriage?
Keyboard86
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Okay... so in various Census, both George and Sophia give birthplaces as Surrey? Does that tell us something about where they might have married?snap Keyboard.... I thought you were going to sleep
1861 Census England Yorkshire Nether Hallam
RG9/3464/71/19
Channing Street
OATES
George Head Marr 36 File Cutter London
Hannah M Wife Marr 30 Yorkshire Wadsley
Ellenor Dau Unmarr 6 Scholar Yorkshire Sheffield
Clemment Son Unmarr 5 Scholar Yorkshire Sheffield
Hariet A Dau Unmarr 2 Yorkshire Sheffield
George C ROBOTTOM Lodger Unmarr 25 File Cutter Yorkshire Sheffield
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A possible but no proof...
Marriage Register
St Mary Ealing
Ealing
George OATES of this Parish Bachelor and Sophy BEASLEY of this Parish Spinster were married in this Church by Banns this 24th day of August 1818. Both bride and groom signed and the witnesses were Harriet HALL and Frederick GEORGE
Cheers
Karenlee
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It gets worse --> George Oates and Sophia had 5 children !?!
And Sophia then marries Alfred Holden (in late 1838) who is but a mere few years older than Sophia's eldest child by George Oates! ... That is, if the 1861 48-yr-old widowed Alfred Holden in Sheffield is the same Alfred Holden that married Sophia Oates in 1838, which the indicators suggest he is.
I'm thinking this is all pretty remarkable, especially given the era.
Mike
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Mike, never ever say that they are not related, you never know!!
In 1871 Joseph Oates has a nephew Clement Oates aged 15 and niece Harriet A 11 with him and Sarah (Now b Middx)
1861 census if someone could look at original for any more info:-
George Oates 36 occ File Cutter b London
Hannah M 30 b Wadsley Yorks
Ellenor 6 b Sheffield
Oates son 5 b Sheffield
Harriett A 2 b Sheffield
Residing at Channing Street, Sheffield
Census ref RG10/3464/71/19
If the Sophia b Mortlake in 1851 is same one, in combination with above birth possibly in London, I would check for a London marriage?
Keyboard86
Mine were ekeing-out a living at the Sheffield Manor Lodge ruins at the time; then emigrated to the US in Nov 1848. They knew the Dec 1838 Sheffield wedded pair: John Glossop and bride Ann Hudson, but the Holdens were strictly John Glossop's, if they were anybody's.
Mike
Mike
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I'm thinking this is all pretty remarkable, especially given the era.
Not really. It happened then as it happens now. People marry for all sorts of reasons, sometimes obvious ones and sometimes simply to have someone to support them and their children. I have 2 or 3 in my line who did just that.
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Karenlee, you're right.... I suppose that makes sense, most especially given that women didn't have the freedoms and the employment options back then as they do now. It was a different world.
After all, what were the options for Sophia and her children -- the poor house, work house, prison, starvation, deportation? I guess for a middle-age woman in Sophia's circa 1838 position, marrying anybody that was willing was about as preferable as it got, regardless of age .... and then, as now, no relationship is necessarily guaranteed, hence the apparent falling-out with Alfred Holden, and the subsequent fling with Thomas Smith.
For some reason, the term "organic" comes to mind. I don't know why, really, but there ya go.... organic, and very human.
Mike
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A possible but no proof...
Marriage Register
St Mary Ealing
Ealing
George OATES of this Parish Bachelor and Sophy BEASLEY of this Parish Spinster were married in this Church by Banns this 24th day of August 1818. Both bride and groom signed and the witnesses were Harriet HALL and Frederick GEORGE
Cheers
Karenlee
Sophia as wife of Thomas Smith 1851c says she was born Mortlake (near Kew & Richmond) that is only about 3 miles from Ealing
I think Sophia is telling fibs about her age in the census and really born between 1795 to 1800
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mgc
It was the same in some ways for widowed men too. If they had a young family to raise it was cheaper for them to marry someone than employ a housekeeper. Once again, a purely practical view of the world rather than the romantic one we prefer today. I suppose one would be considered somewhat mercenary if they announced that they were marrying someone for those reasons today.
I have to wonder if any of them really knew their true ages??
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Sound like the 'Widow woman' wore the poor chaps out. Simple as that. ;D
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Hi
I have only just seen this thread and you’ve discovered in 4 days what it had taken me about 10 years to unravel and I’m still not sure of all the facts as you can imagine !!
I am a descendant of Daniel OATES, one of the sons of George OATES and Sophia BEASLEY/BEEZLEY who married 24 Aug 1818 in Ealing, and had 7 children.
Never been able to get a firm baptism date for Sophia who possibly hailed from Mortlake, Surrey, or indeed George as I have no record of where he was born.
George & Sophia seemed to have travelled up and down to London, possibly for his file smith work, and one of their sons George was probably born there in 1825, but baptised in Sheffield.
Another son Joseph born 1833, threw me a curve ball as he was baptised twice in Sheffield, once in 1834 and then again in 1881 as you have sussed out.
George snr. died aged 39 and was buried 25 Dec 1836 at what is now the Sheffield Cathedral, and Sophia re-married Alfred Holden 7 Oct 1838, they had no children.
Sophia died in Bellfield Street, Sheffield & was buried at St Philips 25 Nov 1860. I have only found Alfred on the 1861 Census living with his step-daughter Harriet TYAS, then he seemingly disappears after that.
However, I wonder if the 1851 Census in London has him under an assumed name of Thomas SMITH, especially with Sophia using the name Holden Smith on documents, or did she take up with another chap from Sheffield who had the same occupation - a slater? But yet her son Joseph is under OATES, it’s all very odd.
Sophia also had a ‘flexible’ age and her granddaughter Alexandra carried on the tradition on her second marriage by wedding a man of 19 when she was 31, both lying on the marriage certificate to say they were 21 and 29.
This OATES family is linked with GREAVES and PARKIN lines in Sheffield and it is tricky as can be.
One branch of the OATES, Edith married in 1908 to Bernard Franklin GLOSSOP , his parents were Charles and Rachel.
If anyone has any links with these OATES or related families, I would love to hear from them
VAT