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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: sandlotball on Tuesday 10 January 12 13:57 GMT (UK)
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Looking for an explanation as to why a house number would have changed, apparently sometime in the 1940's.
My grandparents moved into their home on Tritonville Rd in approxomitly 1905. She remained in the same home until her passing in 1980.
In the 1911 Census the house # is listed as 8. In addition, she & two of the adult children appear on the 1939-40 Electoral Rolls as residing at # 8.
The family always called the home "#12" & in every photo I have (the earliest from the late 1940's), it's clearly marked #12. It's the same home for the entire 75 years, that's not in question.
So, simple question; What caused the change ?
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I'll check the later listings, but the most common reasons for renumbering were either to allow for new houses, or to fit with revised numbering systems.
e.g. Some city and suburb streets had intermingled numbers - the main sequence, along with separate numbers for terraces. These were sometimes rationalized in a single sequence, although people sometimes used the old Terrace name as part of the address along with he street name. I know of instance in South Dublin were both the old terrace number and 'new' street number are both still used at the same time - some of the houses have both, one on each gate pillar.
Shane
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Forgive my ignorance, but what do you mean by "terrace" ?
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a row of similar houses joined together
sometimes cottages, sometimes large houses
Shane
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to start off.... some details from Thom's 1914
Tritonville Rd is described as running from Londonbridge road to Serpentine avenue, with number 1 at the Londonbridge road junction - i.e. northern end. Odd numbers are used for western side and even numbers on the eastern.
Number 8 is close to the Claremont Rd / Serpertine Avenue junction, i.e. the southern end, and the householder listed is a Jno. Joseph Mansfield.
The numbering system looks to be the same in 1927. I'll check further this evening...
Shane
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Shane -
Thank you for the help you're providing. John Joseph is my grandfather. Can the Thom's directory be accessed online ?
I'm curious about the term "householder". I'm assuming it does not imply ownership. There's a further issue with the home that I don't know how to investigate. I believe it may have been actually owned by English people. Some sort of issue arose after my grandmother's death & my un-married aunt & uncle who lived their lives there had to either purchase it or move. I'm not really sure about the details.
A second question, or set of questions, is; was some form of 'life-time' leases common ? I've looked for information on such an arrangement but come up empty. How can I find who actually owned the home all those years if, in fact, it was some sort of pre-Independence 'English owner / Irish tenant' arrangement ?
All I can recall from the time, as I was very young, was my father seeming a little surprised & making some statements about how English landholdings should have been terminated after the truce.
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These Thom's are not online, although extracts of some 19th Century ones are. I have hard copies of a selection of them.
I used the term householder deliberately - as neither directory entries or voters lists imply anything about who actual owned the house or land. Many people leased/rented and even those that owned their house, either through a mortgage or outright, may have paid ground rent to the owner of the land.
The building returns on the census forms have a column for the land owner that might be worth checking, but it's not always filled out. As far as I know property ownership (with the exception of barracks and government buildings etc) in the new Free State was maintained after Independence.
Shane
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Gee, you've jogged my memory with that reply. I do recall now, hazily, some issue of one thing being owned, not the other. Vague as my recall is, it may have been that the house was owned but not the land & this was what my father was angry about. I wish I could remember.( like everyone, I now wish I'd paid more attention to family information discussions in my youth). All I know is that his brother & sister simply walked away from the whole thing empty handed to live in a home close by they owned outrite.
I was unable to discern from the census who owned anything.
ps - thank you for your replies, this site is truly a gem - I've learned so much from it over the years.
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Many people paid ground rent up to the 1970s or so, when there was some sort of scheme setup to allow a buy-out, at a fairly nominal fee if I remember correctly. I remember my parents talking about it.. and delivering a cheque once or twice a year to an address closeby, I think to some sort of intermediary for the Land owner.
Shane
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Yes, yes the more you say, the more I remember !
I distinctly recall talk of a general "buy-out" arrangement having taken place but the actual title holders, to either the land, or home refusing it & demanding possession after my grandmother's passing (and THAT being the root of my father's anger). The things he said at the time are now in proper perspective vis a vis the English, the Irish and Independence.
As I seem to be the only living member of the family with any knowledge of there even being an issue some 30-odd years ago, the information you've given has been terrifically helpful to my recall, thanks.
Certainly got off on a tangent from a house numbering question !
I've just now been looking for a link to these buy-out arrangements, but I suppose it's an obscure subject. If anyone knows of one, that would be great.
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I wonder if the house was leased from the The Pembroke Estates.
(Vicounts Fitzwilliam) being where it is. They owned most of South City and South County Dublin.
Have 3 similar instances in my own family in 1940's, 1950's and 1980's -
In the 1940's the leaseholder died and family were given the option to buy which they did, a very reduced price.
In 1950's the leaseholder died and family were asked to leave and given a choice of smaller properties.
In the 1980's the leaseholder died and no offer was made for family to buy it and the house was just handed back. All properties were in Dublin 4 very close to Tritonville Rd.
In the 1980's instance the lady had lived in the house about 35 years and I think family were under the impression that she had long bought it, only to find out that she hadn't - wonder if something like that happened in you case.
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Adee - thanks for throwing out those names, it's a lead I can follow up on.
It may well be the same family, as I recall my father using the terms "vast holdings", "this family" ( pejoratively, of the title holders) & "aristocratic theft of land" & saying it was an "anachronism" of the occupation. (He was on the phone to Ireland often regarding the situation, to whom I don't know). So what you say fits with what I recall over hearing.
So with vicounts Fitzwilliam as the family, am I correct to assume Pembroke Estates would be the title of their holding company ?
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back to the original question - the street numbering for the lower even numbers looks the same in 1944 right through to 1962. The same surname appears at number 8 throughout....
Shane
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update - from about 1949 onwards there's a second Mansfield household at number 12.
Shane
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some details on the Pembroke Estate / Viscounts Fitzwilliam here :
http://humphrysfamilytree.com/Herbert/dublin.estate.html
Shane
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to get a bit of background on the Ground Rent thing, I Googled
ireland "ground rent" ACRA .... lots of hits
Thinking back to my in-laws, they lived in an old house and their ground lease was quite short. (when the lease ran out, one had to hand back the land and all on it, as far as I know). So they bought out the Ground Rent in 1970s.
Our own house has a 500 year lease from 1960s, so we never bothered to buy out the rent!
eadaoin
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back to the original question - the street numbering for the lower even numbers looks the same in 1944 right through to 1962. The same surname appears at number 8 throughout....
Shane
update - from about 1949 onwards there's a second Mansfield household at number 12.
Shane
Oy vey, now I'm really scratching my head.
The only number we've ever heard is 12. #12 this, #12 that. All the letters I have to my father & a brother of his who travelled around as a missionary all have a return address of #12, as well as every old photo in front of the house showing the number 12 above the door. Even in the 1970's the bayonet marks left in the wall by the black & tans were still there, on display in #12, & there in the backyard of #12 were the trees my father helped her care for in the 1920's.
Nobody ever heard of #8 until the census came out a few years ago.
An uncle did move onto Tritonville after he married in the 40's - possibly next door, I don't know, never the less - from what you're telling me, my grandmother is recorded at #8 until at least 1962.
This is terrifically baffling ...
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The later entries are all a bit to recent, and pushing the RootsChat "no details allowed in posts on living people", so I'll send the actual names to you by personal message (PM) - might help clear things up..
Shane
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My grandparents moved into their home on Tritonville Rd in approximately 1905.
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skipping back in time... Tritonville Avenue Road is listed under Co. Dublin, in the section for Sandymount (Pembroke township) in 1904 and 1906 and the Pembroke Urban District in 1910:
1904 - 8 Mr. Patrick Colohan
1906 - 8 vacant
1910 - 8 vacant
(the directory entries can sometimes be a little out of date by the time they are published)
Shane
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I'd assumed they were there right away, as they're there in 1911. It looks like they spent a few years somewhere else. That's great information, and a data base I've never had access to, thank you.
& like I said - the PM you sent me is has me baffled !
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hi cousin liam here.
your father and my fatherand theother children where brought up from childhoood at no. 8 .The family then moved to no 12 e(date to be confirmed ) When my parents married in 1947 they lived at no 8 before buying and moving to durham road. no 8 continued to be rented but remained empty.no 8 was purchased by your grand mother in 1978 and it was inherited by rory in. 1980. rory sold it in 1990s (approx)
no8 remained empty from lated 1940s to date of sale.
no 12 was rented by your grand mother from the pembroke estate. On her death in february 1980 Rory attempted to have himself made the tenant of the house.
The pembroke offer to sell the remainder of the lease on the house to him. rory could have then started legal procees to buy the freehold of the house. He did not act on this opportunity and following long corresspondence from the pembroke estate's agent to which he did not reply the agent's arranged fro the sale of the house and so Rory had to leave the house. Alice had died in 1985 and Rory ,now aged 55/56 found himself homeless as no 8 was now not in a habiltal state. Rory went tolive with his late sister's former boyfriend Joe Shiels wher he lived until his death in nov. 2005. So the loss of no 12 was not due to out dated english land laws but simply due to rory not availing of an oportunity to buy the house that up to then had been rented by his late mother. FIN