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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: olduser1 on Monday 09 January 12 16:26 GMT (UK)
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Looking for assistance with the records for my Great Grandfather Hugh Duncan he was a ships Captain and sailed from Liverpool between 1860-79.
Unable to trace his birth record although the only Census 1871 which he appears on states b Liverpool 1834.
He married 1863 Ellen Curwen in Liverpool
and when she died in 1871 he married Elizabeth Webster again in Liverpool.
He was away at Sea for many of the Census years although his wife Elizaberth is recorded as Captains Wife in 1891 but
a Widow on the 1901 Census - both records for Liverpool.
Help appreciated for any information on hia Birth / Death also his voyages - I have found his Captains Register record at Lloyd's of London - but don't know where to go next.
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Hi
This might be of interest to you
In 1841 there is a Hugh Duncan born 1833 in Scotland living in Liverpool. He is with a Matthew Duncan, an engineer.
Heather
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Hi :),
Do either of the marriage certificates give the name of his father?
Luzzu
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27th of Feb 1863,
St Nicholas, Liverpool,
Hugh Duncan,of full age ,batchelor ,mariner,of Pleasant St ,father Hugh Duncan a baker,
Ellen Curwin,of full age ,spinster of possibly Elsmere port,father Michael a shipwright,
witness to marriage Ellen ??? Michael Addison,
married by licence,
both signed their own names
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As Radcliff states Hugh Duncan's father is shown as a Baker on the 1863 m cert, still waiting for the 1871 m cert to arrive.
The 1863 m is to Ellen Curwen not Curwin as in my earlier post.
The only record on the English Census with a Hugh Duncan entry is on the 1871 when living at 49 Park Hill Road Toxteth Park, shows where Born as Liverpool.
Thanks for the replies so far.
Let me know if I can provide any other information.
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You are awaiting second marriage cert so for the benefit of other rootschatters ,
St Mary ,Edge Hill ,Liverpool June 1871
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Found the death records for Hugh Duncan b abt 1835 in Newspaper article from 1897 11th April Hugh a Merchant Navy Captain died in Argentina.
Just rec'd the marriage cert 1871 for Hugh Duncan & Elizabeth Webster, Hugh's father shown as Hugh Duncan deceased - occupation Baker.
That means he died between 1863 and 1871, as on the 1863 m cert to Ellen Curwen Hugh's father was Hugh Duncan Baker.
Have researched further for any deaths but not success, there is also a.link to Dunoon Argyllshire Scotland so may need to commerce another search.
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We are so excited to discover where and when my great grandfather died. His grand-daughter, my mother, always swore she was born in Dunoon, but this was obviously false. I think she may have got this confused, but there is certainly a link to Dunoon somewhere as she was adamant about it. She was a great narrator, but often got carried away so that the details could be suspect.
I will look up any other details I have and post thenm here.
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Hi jadefish7, There IS a link to Dunoon as my side of the family all had stories about the town.
I am working through all the Hugh Duncan's born in Liverpool & Dunoon.
I am also tracking the ships he sailed on from Liverpool - the microfilm record at the maratime Museum is unclear but I am going again next week
Keep me posted if you find anything out about Dunoon.
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Do you have a family tree? Perhaps we could share? I am intrigued as to who all your relations were who talked about Dunoon?
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The 1851 census transcriptson Ancestry show a Hugh Duncan baker living at Duncan's Land Dunoon with a wife Elizabeth. Could this be part of the family?
Gibel
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Now that is a good find Gibel,
there must be some relationship there,a baker, Dunoon and surname
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The 1851 census transcriptson Ancestry show a Hugh Duncan baker living at Duncan's Land Dunoon with a wife Elizabeth. Could this be part of the family?
Gibel
Thanks for this entry which I have as"a likely" , the issue being I cannot for the life of me tie in the Duncans in Dunoon to my Grt Grandfather - there are 2 Duncan's a father & son both operating as bakers at the right timeframe in Dunoon, but I have not found how Hugh the sea captain comes as a child to Liverpool.
Hugh b abt 1835 passed his Masters ticket exams in Liverpool in 1862.
The only entry for Hugh is on the 1841 Census in Liverpool age 8 which is pretty much all I can find until he marries in 1863 , again in Liverpool
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As Radcliff states Hugh Duncan's father is shown as a Baker on the 1863 m cert, still waiting for the 1871 m cert to arrive.
The 1863 m is to Ellen Curwen not Curwin as in my earlier post.
The only record on the English Census with a Hugh Duncan entry is on the 1871 when living at 49 Park Hill Road Toxteth Park, shows where Born as Liverpool.
Thanks for the replies so far.
Let me know if I can provide any other information.
Sorry to but in on this topic, but I have been wondering for ages what happened to Hugh Duncan. I knew about the Nancy Brysson but couldn't get any further than that. I am so pleased to hear that someone else has now found him. I have the death cert of his first wife Ellen Curwen but will have to do some serious searching for it. I do remember though, that she died just after having her second child and Hugh remarried very quickly after that.
Ann.
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Kitch, Thanks for your comments, I have Hugh Duncan 1st & 2nd marriage details and those of his children's b in Liverpool.
Let me know if you require any details.
The link with Dunoon is on the back burner for now, or untill another forum member provides a lead.
I now plan to concentrate on tracing the ships he sailed on via the Liverpool Maritimer Museum and other maritime websites.
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Thanks olduser1. I was wondering if you had his marrage details etc. I'd be very interested to hear how you get on with the Liverpool Maritime Museum. I did email them a few years ago but didn't get much help. I hope things have changed. It's good to know where he died though.
Thanks again.
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I'll keep you updated on the progress with the shipping records - one of the films for Duncan is quite poor in quality, so I am due to visit the museum again.
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Do you have a family tree? Perhaps we could share? I am intrigued as to who all your relations were who talked about Dunoon?
have sent you a PM
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Now rec'd the details of the voyages from the City Of London, so now have the names of his ships, but no voyages recorded 1890 onwards just aremark Died 11th Feb 1897.
So will now search for the crew lists
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Thanks for that. Good luck, I'll be interested to hear what you find.
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jadefish7 - please get in touch - either here or PM me
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Now have Hugh Duncan's records as a boy in Royal Navy 1849 to Mate, Second mate, First mate , Master Mariner in 1877, the Masters Certificate and other seafaring records all show his DOB as 4th April 1835 in Liverpool Lancashire.
Still niggles I can't locate the link back to Dunoon Scotland nor a father also Hugh Duncan - a Baker - in Liverpool.
Also anyone able to suggest the names for ship No 1
(http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff498/olduserBX/MC25688-MastersCertificate0018.jpg)
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Could it be 'Meander', ignoring the squiggle at the beginning?
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If you Google ship meander, there's an old picture of it for sale on ebay and also amazon. It MAY be the same ship.
Ann.
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Thanks for all your replies, the only doubt I have with Meander its shown on his records for 1849 -1851 as a Royal Navy ship ie HMS Meander, the listing on Clip is for 1860 too late for Meander no 3907 - but it maybe the correct vessel.
I'll take alook at the web for the ship.
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Now found the Scottish link via the Grave in Toxteth Cemetery .
Greenock New or Middle in Renfrewshire, how do i transfer my enquiry history over to the Scotland Renfrewshire roots chat ?
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This is amazing! After so long. My mother was always so certain of the Scottish connection. Could you tell me more? I have had family. Problems and fun from all over the world, so have been too busy to follow up until now.
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I'll second that! I can't believe that we have made such a breakthrough all in one go.
I don't know you would transfer your enquiry over to Renfrew Rootschat list though. Perhaps the moderater will help you when he/she reads your posting.
All we need now is the details for Hugh senior in Argentina.
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Thanks for your comments, good to have the fact that Hugh's mother lived close by untill her death.
I plan to visit the cemetery at Toxteth later this week to find the grave and photo the inscription.
Then its back to Scotland for Hugh Duncan the baker born in ? on ?.
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Yes, it is good that she lived close by, but why in an alms house...poor woman.
I have just sent for those two death certs...Sophia and Janet Olive.
Back to the drawing board now.
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This is amazing! After so long. My mother was always so certain of the Scottish connection. Could you tell me more? I have had family. Problems and fun from all over the world, so have been too busy to follow up until now.
Please send me a PM
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Duncan family was connected to a gillespie family both of whom came from scotland,in stirlingshire.depends who hugh was related to as to if the link exists.
i'm related to the gillespie family i mentioned.
T.
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This could be a lead lets know what the connection is between Duncan - Gillespie either on here or send me a PM
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The link i believe is in relation to a david gillespie who was a sailor who had duncan family roots and links born round and about 1830 but if you look at the our family lines website i think you should see the link for yorself.
T.
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You may already have this information from Lloyd's Captains Register.
DUNCAN, Hugh b. Liverpool 1835 Certificate 25688 changed to Certificate 02973 (vol. 18) changed to 102973
(vol. 46) Liverpool 1868
vol.4 1868-73; vol.18 1874-79; vol.31 1880, 1884; vol.46 no voyages listed.
Do the certificate numbers compare to the records you have?
The was only one Royal Navy ship with the the name MEANDER. She was built in 1934
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Hello Seaweed, Yes I did have this info, I managed to obtain all his ships [ then their official numbers] apart from those for the last Captains number 102973 when I asked for a copy was allocated to a George Symes [?]. I then attempted to check his record but it appears surnames beginning S are not yet on line - my thought being the number quoted for Hugh on the list was a what simple error taken from Georges record.
I then went to the Nat Martime Museum and obtained his Masters Certificates and his record of service - this shows he joined the Maeander as Boy in 1848, that ship was recorded as Royal Naval Vessel built 1840.
Any suggestions how I take the search for Symes record further would be appreciated
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I think it is a mistake or typo but I understand your need to be sure.
Hugh's first two certificate numbers indicate that they were for Foreign Trade.
Cert number 102973 indicates a Home Trade certificate. Take a look at the National Archive Catalogue.
Pieces BT125/2 BT122/32 and BT122/73.
I don't know where you are based but if you are close to Kew it may be expedient to visit and take a look at the above pieces.
Whilst you are there you may wish to look at the Muster Roles for HMS MAEANDER from 1848 onwards in ADM38/4043--ADM38/4047
Other alternatives, you could contact NMM via this form
http://www.rmg.co.uk/researchers/library/masters-certificates-request-form
or visit London Metropolitan Archives to View the original Lloyd's Captains Register.
Have you searched any Crew Agreements for Hugh?
Have you looked at Lloyd's Lists?
Do you have details of HMS MAEANDER?
SW
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Thanks for the reply, let me expand on what I have found to date:
I obtained A3 schedule's of the Register
The 1888 Captains Registers for Hugh Duncan has the number written clearly - 102973 - , the reply back from Nat Maritime Museum stated the names on the M/C 102973 relates to George Symes not Hugh Duncan. I had hoped this was straight foreward error between George & Hugh
The Maeander ship details came from www.pdavis.nl records the ship built 5th may 1840/44 tons/sail/wrecked at Ascension July 1870.
I am 200 miles from Kew so not able to view records
I did ask the TNA for the details of the Maeander ship 1848 quoted the Captain Henry Kepel & ships boy H Duncan but they replied that this enquiry was too broad.
I may plan another visit to Liverpool Maritime Museum to search the MF for Lloyds Lists
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OK. I will be at Kew Thursday week all being well. If I get time I will take a look at BT125/2 to see who's name is recorded on certificate 102973. No promises though.
SW
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Seaweed : The Captains Register M/C 102973 has no voyages listed for 1888-onwards - just the ref to Hugh Duncan's death 10/03/1897.
Thanks again for your kind offer
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Seaweed Now found a likely match by using the TNA records for Hugh Duncan b Greenock Lanarkshire rather than b Liverpool.
After searching on FindmyPast, BT 113/182 piece 182 records - writing is faded
Hugh Duncan age 17
Ticket 362879
First Entry
DOB 04 04 1832 - This date 4th April albeit 1835 is on the Mates/Masters certs for Hugh sent by Nat Maritime Museum
Residence Greenock Lanarkshire
Issued 04 June 1849 HMS Maeander
I then searched further and found
Bt 114/7 which has Hugh Duncan Ticket 362879 and a 2nd ticket 203817 [?]
Then to the ships on Bt 116/29 for voyages 1853-1857 for Hugh Duncan born Greenock.
These all tie in withthe names on Hugh Duncan Service Record sent by the N maritime Museum.
So I am now happy I have the link to Scotland albeit Greenock rather than Dunoon as per family stories
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The David Gillespie i was telling you about. think they went to at least two different places,there was a few david gillespies at the time in and around stirlingshire/lanarkshire. i know i am related to one of them. however think the ones who were sailors went to liverpool and also southampton from stirlingshire/lanarkshire around falkirk, i think, so maybe hugh was related to the one which went to liverpool.
T.
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Sorry for the late reply. My PC crashed.
The Home Trade Certificate of Competency and Service number 102973 was issued to George Christopher Primrose Symes on May 25th 1888.
If indeed Hugh Duncan died in Argentina in 1897, one would presume he was still working as a Foreign going ships captain and therefor in possession of a Foreign Trade certificate. I am still of the opinion that there is a mix up, mistake or typo in Lloyd's Captains Register. It would not matter if Hugh Duncan had lost his previous certificates. The records that survive would be the central office records and not the certificates given to the individual Captain.
I think you need to look at Lloyds List. I think NMM Liverpool have copies
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SW many thanks for taking the time to look up these records.
The copy of the Captains Register I have from vol 46 - 1888 does show Hugh Duncan M/C 102973 but no voyages recorded.
The on-line records still don't have surname S so can't check any Symes.
I'll organise another trip down to NMM Liverpool as you suggest .
I am still hopeful of a error or a switch around of the M/C details Symes to Duncan.
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Thank you seaweed. I am following this avidly as well.
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The original photograph
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Thank you seaweed. Old user is better at this than me and he's got it in hand.
Thanks again for your trouble.
Ann.
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SW I think we have managed to identify the error on the Captains Register for Hugh Duncan 1888 No 102973.
The original Cert No 25688 issued in Liverpol 1st Dec 1868, when the nancy brysson was lost in 1876 another Cert 02973 was issued again in Liverpool 10th Feb 1877 - I have the copy of the new Cert together with the declaration detailing the loss of original Cert with the ship.
When I saw the BT microfilm the number 102973 just jumped out and how easy it would be to add a 1 to 02973.
I can now go along to the Maritme Museum in Liverpool armed with facts and photographs .
I'll keep the forum updated on any progress
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An easy mistake to make but at least you are now on the correct course. Please keep us updated.
SW