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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Caernarvonshire => Topic started by: Ladyhawk on Monday 09 January 12 09:10 GMT (UK)
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Hi – not an easy task I know but would appreciate any help in which birth certificate I should order want to find maiden name of wife Jane married to William Griffith Williams have traced family 1871 - 1911c
children births vary on census Llanfihangel-Y-Pennant & Penmorfa wondering about this entry
Sarah WILLIAMS Dec qtr. 1870 Festiniog
1871 RG10; Piece: 5700; Folio: 18; Page: 8
Prenteg Llanfihangel-Y-Pennant,
William Williams 25 (1846)_ Llanfihangel-Y-Pennant Slate Quarry Rockman
Jane 21 Llanfihangel-Y-Pennant
Sarah 3 months Llanfihangel-Y-Pennant
1881 RG11; Piece: 5553; Folio: 47; Page: 11
William G Williams Penmorfa Slate Miner & family
1891 RG12; Piece: 4648; Folio 43; Page 17
William G Williams Penmorfa Slate Quarry Miner & family
1901 RG13; Piece: 5260; Folio: 39; Page: 1
William G Williams Penmorfa Slate Quarryman & family
1911 William Gth Williams 1847 born Llanfihangel Sir Gaemorfon Slate Quarry Miner
Trying also to locate William on 1861 & 1851c if possible - again many named William Williams
a possibility but difficult to say for sure whether this is the right William :-\
1861 RG9; Piece: 4327; Folio: 75; Page: 1
William G Williams age 12 Penmorfa Nephew
David & William Evans both single farmers
Followed the Evans brothers through to 1841 census they have a sister Catherine Evans not with the family 1851
1851 census entry - checking out 1861 census not found yet
HO107; Piece: 2516; Folio: 43; Page: 33
William Williams 1816 Aber? Caernarvon Grocer
Catherine 32 Trawsfynydd Merionethshire
Margaret 4
William 2 Llanbeblig Caernarvon
Thanks :)
Edit
ruled out William & Catherine above 1861c son is named William M Williams
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Good Morning Ladyhawk
Possibilty for William Williams ....................
1851 H0107 2512 442 15 - Civil Parish Llanfihangel Y Pennant - Address Prenteg
William Griffiths Head mar 31 Penmorfa Caernarfonshire - Agri Lab
Sarah wife 30 Penmorfa
William Williams son 5 Llanfihangel Y Pt
John Williams son 4 Penmorfa
Robert Williams son 2 Penmorfa
Sarah Griffiths daugh 1mth Llanfihangel Y Pt
1861 RG9 4326 18 11 - Civil Parish as above - Address ?
William Griffiths Head mar 41 Penmorfa - Agri Lab
Sarah wife 40 Penmorfa
William Griffith son 16 Llanfihangel Y Pennant - Agri Lab
John son 13 Penmorfa - Agri Lab
Sarah daugh 10 Llanfihangel
Ellinor daugh 8 Llanfihangel
Robert son 4 Llanfihangel
Is is possible that William b1845 Llanfihangel was born a Williams and after his mother Sarah remarried took on the surname Griffith/s as a middle name and was then known as William Griffith Williams? In 1871 William and his wife Jane appear to have remained at "Prenteg" which is where the family are to be found in 1851/61 are - and maybe they have named their first child Sarah after Williams mother?
Regards
Z :)
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Thank you Z much appreciate your time
Looks very promising William's occupation Ag. Labourer :-\
throughout the censuses William Griffith Williams occ. has been Slate Quarry Miner
although William & Jane did name children Sarah, Ellen, John Henry & Griffith
so will keep this in mind as a strong contender :)
Added
Z - looking a very strong possiblilty you have found the correct William :) :) :)
William has remarried by 1881
1881 Tyn y Gro
William Griffith Farmer 5 1/2 acres remarried wife Elizabeth, Wm's son Robert Slate Miner & William & Elizabeth two sons Thomas 2 & Joseph W 2 months all born Ll y Pennant
William & Elizabeth have another two children by 1891c Griffith W 1885 & Ann E (Ellen) 1887 still living Tyn y Gro 1901 census
family search has these christenings
Robert Griffith 30/1/1850
Robert William Griffith 107/1857
Henry William Griffith 2/7/1859
Sarah Griffith 10/11/1851
Ellen Williams Griffith 27/9/1855
Mary Williams Griffith 27/9/1855
Parents names as William Griffith & Sarah
All christened Penmorfa Caernarvon
FreeBMD marriage entries a possibility
1841 & 1844 Festiniog Sarah Jones names on same page William Griffith / Griffith Williams
1843 Pwllheli Sarah Williams name on same page William Griffith
a possibility for Sarah Jones on 1841 census :-\
HO107; Piece 1391; Book: 8; Civil Parish: Pen Morfa; County: Caernarvonshire; ED: 19; Folio: 28; Page: 6 - living Pen y ? Penmorfa
William Jones 70 Ag Lab.
Anne 55
Griffith 25 Ag Lab.
Simeon 15 quarryman
Robert 10
Sarah 20
All born in this county
1878 Festiniog William Griffith name on same page Elizabeth Griffith at some point may need to order a birth certificate of son Joseph William Griffith Mar qtr. 1881 Festiniog to confirm
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Hi Ladyhawk
Have had a look for your Jane and looking through the census have come across this lady who I found to be quite interesting because of the Sarah Jones that you found in 1841 H0107 1391 F 28 Pg 5 Address Pen Y Step also on that page is this family - Address Cwmfedw .............
Evan Jones 45 - Agri Lab
Ellinor 45
John 10
Robert 5
Jane 5
Elizabeth 4
Anna 1
All born in County
1851 H0107 2512 493 30 - Civil Parish Penmorfa - Address Cwmbedw? Ddu
Evan Jones Head mar 58 Llanmi?- Stone Mason
Eleanor wife 56 Llanmi?
Elizabeth daugh 14 Penmorfa
Anne daugh 12 Penmorfa
Jannet daugh 9 Penmorfa
Mary Jones grandchild 2 Penmorfa
Jane Jones grandchild 1 Penmorfa
And in 1861 RG9 4326 17 10 they are living in Llanfihangel Y Pennant at Prenteg House ...........
Evan Jones Head mar 67 Llanfihangel y Pennant - Stone Mason
Elinor wife 60 Llanfihangel
Robert son 24 Penmorfa - Stone Mason
Jane Jones grandaughter 11 Penmorfa
So could she be a Jones ................................
Freebmd - Marriage Mar 1870 Dist Festiniog Vol 11b Pg585 and on the same page are Jane Jones and William Williams
This would tie up with the birth of Sarah Williams in Dec 1870
Maybe just a coincidence but thought it worth a mention
All the very best and good luck with your search ;D
Z :)
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Z - Thank you so much for taking the time - I know how time consuming this can be so very much appreciate your help & input - all looks very interesting will keep this for future reference :)
Going to take it one step at a time know - so many Williams with the same christian names..... ::)
First step is taking the plunge & order the birth certificate thought SW 1870 (3 months old on 1871 census Llanfihangel Y Pennant)
There are three entries for 1869 - can discount them I think & three 1872 ???
Then there's a Sarah Griffith Williams 1873 - being drawn to this one :-\
Festiniog covers Penmorfa & Llanfihangel Y Pennant
mmm.... still pondering which one choose
If I choose the correct one hopefully I can then move onto the marriage of William & Jane and so forth
Again many thanks - always great to have extra input :)
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Hi again
Sorry for steaming ahead I should have explained that I have gone around the houses so to speak as I couldn't find an alternative birth entry for the other children of William and Jane (too many Williams :o) in order to confirm her maiden name, so I decided to look for a likely marriage in order to try and confirm the birth entry of Sarah Williams Dec 1870 Festiniog - thats if she was registered :(
Take Care and all the very best
Z :)
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Z - no need to say sorry I'm glad of any thoughts & help, yes I agree there are far too many Williams...... ??? Why couldn't William have married using his middle name of Griffith that would have narrowed things down a bit ::) I have to say thought Sarah W 1870 birth reg., was all systems go then I talked myself out of it over thinking it ::)
The 1871 census was taken on night of April 4th & dau. Sarah is noted as only 3 months old on 1871c so I wondered if she would have been registered in Jan/Feb/Mar 1871 but no entry in Festiniog for 1871 Sarah Williams, so back to my original thought Dec 1870 I will make the decision soon........ :)
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Hi again
Familysearch ...........
Christening Sarah Williams 7th Jan 1871 Penmorfa Caernarfon
Parents William Williams and Jane
Christening Ellen Williams 13 June 1872 Penmorfa Caernarfon
Parents William Williams and Jane
Christening Jane Williams 14 March 1874 Penmorfa Caernarfon
Parents as shown Wm.Wm.Griffith Williams and Jane
All the best
Z :)
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Z - thank you again don't know how I didn't spot them ::)
Decided to go with Sarah's birth entry 1870 - finger's crossed :)
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Re:
1851 H0107 2512 442 15 - Civil Parish Llanfihangel Y Pennant - Address Prenteg
William Griffiths Head mar 31 Penmorfa Caernarfonshire - Agri Lab
Sarah wife 30 Penmorfa
William Williams son 5 Llanfihangel Y Pt
John Williams son 4 Penmorfa
Robert Williams son 2 Penmorfa
Sarah Griffiths daugh 1mth Llanfihangel Y Pt
I am following this family to attempt to make a connection and wondering if anyone can assist with Sarah's previous husband.
There was some discussion earlier in the post re possiblities of her maiden name & marriage but I was unsure of them as I was following the line that if her children were born between 1846-1849 as Williams, that her husband perhaps didnt die until at least 1848 and therefore her re-marriage to Griffiths was after that point.
I am very confident that her husband was in fact William Griffith Williams c1820, the father of William G Williams who from 1871-1911 resided at Pant Llwyd with his wife Jane but just need the clarification.
I have come across a number of trees online of Sara's son John Williams (used Griffiths) who married Sarah Griffiths - the information shows John passing away at Tyny Gro Prenteg but there is no information of John's parents (except what is listed above).
Any help would be greatly appreciated, many thanks in advance.
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Re:
1851 H0107 2512 442 15 - Civil Parish Llanfihangel Y Pennant - Address Prenteg
William Griffiths Head mar 31 Penmorfa Caernarfonshire - Agri Lab
Sarah wife 30 Penmorfa
William Williams son 5 Llanfihangel Y Pt
John Williams son 4 Penmorfa
Robert Williams son 2 Penmorfa
Sarah Griffiths daugh 1mth Llanfihangel Y Pt
I am following this family to attempt to make a connection and wondering if anyone can assist with Sarah's previous husband.
I found these baptism on familysearch
30 Jan 1850 Penmorfa - Robert Griffith
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X116-PTY
10 Jul 1857 Penmorfa - Robert William Griffith
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X116-PYS
27 Sep 1855 Ellen Williams Griffith & Mary Williams Griffith
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X116-N6J
2 Jul 1859 Henry Williams Griffith
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/X116-G3J
and these details of their baptisms were kindly sent to me by a rootschatter
all at Penmorfa:
Robert Griffith 30th January 1850 Prenteg Labourer
Sarah Griffith 10th November 1851 Prenteg Labourer
Ellen Williams 27th September 1855 Tyn y Gro Labourer
Mary Williams 27th September 1855 Tyn y Gro Labourer
Robert Williams, 10th July, 1857 Tyn y Gro, Labourer
Henry Williams, 2nd July 1859 Tyn y Gr Labourer
didn’t find baptisms for the two elder boys William and John
Here is the explanantion given for the two surnames
The reason some of the children appear as Williams is that the family were still using the patronymic naming system, which is very late to be honest.
Some families seem to have been extremely confused about which name to use and you do come across instances, like in your family, of two different names being used.
The registers here do note that the surname is Williams
e.g. 'Henry Williams, son of William & Sarah Griffith'
(it is an easy & common mistake with these cases to assume that the surname is a middle name).
I was going to order what I thought was Sarah's birth certificate but decided to wait to see if I could firstly find the correct birth certificate for Evan (born c1884) son of William G Williams & Jane as this is the line I'm interested in. Due to family reason things have been on hold but I recently sent for a marriage certificate of their son Evan - which I hope will turns out to be correct one - as soon as I receive details will let you know.
Hopefully this will confirm his father is the William G Williams living Pant Llwyd 1881/1891 with his wife Jane - then I can move on from there - have a possibility for Evan's birth entry which would then give me mother Jane's maiden name then hopefully can move onto William & Jane's marriage and confirm his father's name etc......
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Im waiting on a certificate for WGW born 1846 so once received and confirmed will post information and fingers crossed that will clear up the earlier query ;)
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No middle name for father William :(
BUT pretty certain I have the correct marriage cert. for the Evan Williams I'm looking for
1908 Marriage detail
Evan Williams age 25 (c1883) occ Farm labourer
his father William Williams occ Quarryman
Witnesses Robert JONES & Annie WILLIAMS
1911 living Rhondda (this is the correct Evan Williams as his address & occupation match up with the b/c of a later child
Evan married 3 years age 27 (c1884) pob Brynteg Caernarvon occ Colliery repairman below ground
1901c RG13; Piece: 5260; Folio: 57; Page: 8
Evan Williams age 19 (c1883) Llanfihangel Caernarvon occ Farm Labourer
1891c RG12; Piece: 4648; Folio: 43; Page: 17
Evan Williams age 9 (c1883) Penmorfa Caernarvon
father William occ Slate Quarry Miner mother Jane
he has an older sister named Ann
Evan’s father William Williams, William G / Gth Williams
1911 Mwnwr Mewn Chwarel Lechi = Miner in Slate Quarry
1901 slate quarry man
1891 slate quarry miner
1881 slate miner - RG11; Piece: 5553; Folio: 47; Page: 11
1871 slate quarry workman - RG10; Piece: 5700; Folio: 18; Page: 8
Ideally I would like to find the correct birth entry of Evan to obtain his b/c to find out his mother's maiden name there are a number of Evan Williams born in Caernarvon around the same date and to add to the frustration his pob is different on each of the censuses :(
Not sure what registration district Brynteg Caernarvon comes under
Llanfihangel & Penmorfa are in the registration district of Ffestiniog
there is an entry for an
Evan Williams Dec 1883 Festiniog (so maybe this could be the correct one)
for info.
Looks as if Evan’s sister Sarah Williams born c 1870 bapt 7 Jan 1871 Penmorfa
married a Robert Richards Mar 1896 Festiniog
William Gth. & Jane Williams have their grandson living with them in 1911
1901c RG13; Piece: 5260; Folio: 17; Page: 4
Owens Street Prenteg
Sarah Richards wid 31 (c1870) Llanfihangel Pauper
Jane Richards 3 Penmorfa
William Richards 1 ‘’
1896 marriage http://www.rootschat.com/links/0xbu/
Jane Richards bapt 10 April 1898 Penmorfa
William Richards bapt 18 March 1900 Penmorfa
(no parents named – family search)
possible death age 32 Robert Richards Dec 1900 Festiniog
possible remarriage
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/KC2N-MHV
http://www.rootschat.com/links/0xbt/
Sarah Richards to Robert Williams Dec 1904 Festiniog
( stepdau named Jane Richards born c1898 pob given as Tremadoc)
Im waiting on a certificate for WGW born 1846 so once received and confirmed will post information and fingers crossed that will clear up the earlier query ;)
Keeping my fingers crossed that this William Griffith Williams might be the father of Sarah & Evan Williams
a shame there's no marriage entry with the name William Griffith Williams to a Jane around 1870?
a marriage possibility as dau Sarah seems to be their first child born c1870 bapt Jan 1871
(she's 3 months old on 1871 census - taken night of 2 April 1871)
William Williams Mar 1870 Festiniog name on same page Jane JONES http://www.rootschat.com/links/0xbv/
From 1911 – 1871 c Jane Williams born c1850 pob Penmorfa (1871), Llanfihangel, Llanf. y Pennant
at the moment I’m leaning towards this Jane JONES from 1851/61c as being Evan’s mother
BUT to be certain I know I need to confirm mmn from a b/c of one of their children to make sure I'm following the correct line
1851 HO107; Piece: 2512; Folio: 493; Page: 30
1861 RG9; Piece: 4326; Folio: 17; Page: 10
Jane JONES born c 1850 Penmorfa grand child of Evan & Eleanor JONES
Jane & William Williams name their children
Sarah 1870 (names first child Jane, 2nd William)
Ellen 1872
Jane 1873
William 1875
Mary 1880
Ann 1882
EVAN 1883 (names first child William, 2nd child Ellen Jane)
Lizzie 1887
John 1888
Griffith 1890