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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: lawless48 on Monday 09 January 12 01:51 GMT (UK)
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I have thoroughlky checked for the marriage of my ancesters, James Adams and Sarah Herbert, which would have been approximately 1859 - 1867?. James was born in Bristol 1842 and Sarah Middlesex St Dunstans 1836: The marraige may have been in Middlesex / Camden/ St Dunstan's> Can anyone help? The Couple had a daughter, Eliza born 1860/ 1 and then there's a gap to Henry Robert Adams, 1867, baptised in Old Pancras Church Camden. Despite trawling the churches and indexes of marriages - no luck. Be grateful for any help: Steve
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Have you located the births of both Eliza and Henry Robert, and how sure are you that both of them are the children of James and Sarah?
I can see what might be them in 1871 with three kids in St. James Clerkenwell.
RG 10/387 64/67
James Adams, 29, carman b. Bristol
Sarah, wife, 36, b. London
Eliza, dau, 11, b. London
Henry, son, 4, b. London
James, son, 2, b. London
(James' baptism may be the one at Saint Andrew, Holborn, 2 August 1870)
Given the gap between Eliza and Henry, and the fact that James is a fair bit younger than his wife, there's a good chance that Eliza is the child of Sarah from a previous relationship. The reasons for not finding the marriage might be:
1. Sarah was previously married, and used her married name when marrying James
2. They were not married, for whatever reason (legally couldn't since one or other was still married to previous spouse, just never got around to it, etc).
Do you have them on any other censuses? From which record did you get Sarah's maiden name, and where is she listed as b. St. Dunstans?
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Thank you very much for this help.
I am aware of the census of 1871 and the family: Indeed, rather similar to 1881: The connection to St Dunstan's is that it lists Sarah as birth place, Middlesex St Dunstans:
I have thought about this gap - Eliza - Henry Robert many times: Yet, I have tried, in vain, to locate a marriage between 1860 and 1867, as you said, she may have been married: But I simply cannot find any marriage for James - a few Sarahs but not a Herbert: My other thought is that Herbert could have been misspelt.
Once again, many thanks and any further help would be welcome
Steve
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hi
ok this is just speculation but bear with me and read it through...
Sarah Herbert born June 19 1834 bapt April 3 1842 daughter of Thomas & MaryAnn
20 Little Whites Alley fathers prof. deceased.
Thomas Herbert born feb 7 1838 bapt 25 march 1838 son of Thomas & Mary Ann
30 Little Whites Alley fathers prof shoemaker.
A marraige to consider...St John the Evangelist Lambeth 1858 sept 16
Sarah Herbert to Thomas WITTON. Spelt as WHITTON corrected to Witton
details are Thomas Witton bach full age artificial florist 15 Ann St father Thomas shoemaker
Sarah Herbert spin full age same address father Thomas Herbert shoemaker.
The next possible step is ...
marriage James Adams to a Sarah Wilton in Holborn reg district in 1864. I cannot see details to say that who he married but Witton & Wilton could be read the same.
In 1861
Thomas Witton hd m 30 artificial florist Paddington (Transcribed as Wetton)
Sarah wi m 26 London
Eliza F dau u 1 London
+ Maria Ward visiter artificial florist
In Clerkenwell RG9/192 f 110 p28.
So in short was she Sarah Herbert b St Dustans 1834 to Thomas & Maryann
Is she the same one who married a Thomas Witton?
Help am I making sense or looking too much?
Tazzie
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Many thanks for your message and all your kind help. This is plausible and will have to be investigated. The Birth Certificates for Henry Robert, 1867, state Herbert as the maiden name of Sarah as does James. The earliest I have the family is at the baptism address, Judd Street, which is off St Pancras. The Baptism in Old Church St Pancras, at the back of the station. They are next in Cold Harbour Sqaure, off Clerkenwell. This is an area where, having tried to explore the origins of James, I located a James Adams baptised in Bristol, in 1842, to James and Caroline: a Joseph was also baptised at the same time. The Census of 1851, lists the family in St James's Place Clerkenwell, with both James and Joseph, as well as Mum and Dad all having been born in Bristol Somerset and I am 99% certain, this is James. However, by 1861, The family are living in Bread Street, in St Giles Newton Street, but by this time, James and Joseph had left, either married? Oh the frustration. 1861 - 67: I had thought that maybe there was a war? Certainly not the Crimea. However, by the age of 19/ 20 James was not living with his parents. I have tried in vain to locate James on the Census of 1861: If married to Sarah, it would show them living togther at least but to no avail: Which might bear out your hypothesis - ie she was living with someone else? Any help you can give is welcome and thank you so very much for your help. Steve
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Have you got - Henry Robert Adams marriage-
St.Bartholomew Moor Lane City 23/2/1887
Henry Robert Adams 20 Carman 17 Redcross Street father James Adams - Blacksmith
Mary Ann Street 19 10 Milton Street john Street Costermonger
Jennifer
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Hi Jennifer
Yes, I have had that for many years: Just VERY frustrated, for years, that I have not been able to locate the marriage of James Adams and Sarah Herbert 1860 - 67:
Many thanks again for taking the time to look
Steve
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Clerkenwell St Philip
1860 Dec 2, Eliza Fanny, d/o Thomas & Sarah WITTON, 18 St Helena Place, Artificial florist, born 1859 Nov 30
Same address as 1861 census
That 1864 marriage looks to be the best bet.
Ian C
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OOohh my head hurts ... :(
Eliza Fanny Witton dies in Holborn in 1875 born @ 1860.
So same reg district as marriage allbeit a big one . I would also take a punt on the 1864 Holborn marriage just giving James Adams as groom and all the GRO ids
Tazzie
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Eyesee and Tazzie, thank you so very much for your help and contribution: I shall pursue the 1864 marriage - hopefully this will reap some news and maybe mention of herbert. Warm regards and many thanks again. Steve
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Dear Friends
Thank you so very very very very very much for all your help in my reaserah
After some 10 years following deadends; buying the wrong certificates following mistakes - success -and its all due to you !!!
I purchased the certificate of James Adams and Sarah Wilton and guess what? Sarah was a Widow and her Father was James Herbert - you were so right
The marriage took place in the Holborn Registery Office in 1864 - whereever that was but it matched Adams perfectly
James aged 23 was a Carman - the same as his son Henry Robert - who drove, according to my Mum, his granddaughter, a Handsome Cab
James's father, also called James was a Painter and Glazier - I need to check a 18 Green Street, where the Adams family lived but I feel I do know from previous research that it was in Clerkenwell and that the family were mostly Britsol Born
Sarah, aged 28, was a Widow and lived at 31 New North Street, which I need to check
Her Father, James was a Shoemaker, clearly still alive at the time of the marriage
So very exciting to at last discover the Herbert match
Both James and Sarah signed their names
However, an interesting titbit
One of the Witnesses was an Isabella Herbert, the other Elizabeth Brown (who made her mark x)
Wow ! I now have the marriage Certificate and Sarah's father but also this Isabella - mother; sister (sister-in-law) - I am too happy to be fussed - but a massive THANK YOU
Now the search to go back begins
Best Wishes
Steve
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CORRECTION: FATHER WAS THOMAS NOT JAMES - in all the excitement what a mistake to make - sorry
Steve
With Thomas, you were all very right again
Wow
Steve
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Hi Steve....
Glad to have helped.
I can see an Isabella as Sarah's sister in Little Whites Alley in 1841/51 would you like the census?
Tazzie
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Hi Tazzie
Yes, just located by accident while searching for where Little Whites Alley is - someone searching desperately some 5 years ago for the marriage of Thomas and Mary Ann
Stated some details of the Census but I would appreciate the Census Please
Also, on the marriage certificate it states Thomas as the father of Sarah - but according to this researcher, Mary Ann was a Widow with 6 children including Sarah and yes Isabella
Also, stated that Mary's birth place as Ashburton or Devonport
A younger son, Thomas, seems born around 1838 may render Mary's maiden name - but I checked the Free Births and doesnt seem to be any for 1838
Looking forward to the Census
Thanks
Steve
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Hi Steve
here's 1841 in full ..
civil parish St Clement Danes
borough of Finsbury Liberty of the Rolls
Little Whites Alley (no number given)
Mary Herbert 40 shoe closer not born in county
Ann 20 fs (female servant)
William 15 printers app
Elizabeth 13
James 11
Sarah 7
Isabella 5
Thomas 3 all children born in county
HO107/686 F11 P16
AND IN 1851
14 Whites Alley HO107/1512 F 452 P20
Mary Ann Herbert hd w 52 laundress Devonport
James T son u 21 law all children St Dunstans West
Isabella dau u 14 scholar
Thomas son u 13
Tazzie
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Hi
Baptism of Ann
born 21 Oct 1822
bapt 18 May 1823 father Thomas mother Mary Ann
of Shoe Lane father Shoe maker
at St Andrew Holborn
also
Thomas James Herbert born29 Dec 1824
bap 22 May 1825 father Thomas mother Mary Ann
of Red Lion Court a shoemaker
also
William Herbert born20 April 1826 bap 25 June 1826
father Thomas mother Mary Ann
of Shoe Lane father a cordwainer
also
James Thomas Herbert born 30 Nov 1829
bapt 4 July 1830 father Thomas mother Mary Ann
of Shoe Lane father shoemaker
all at Holborn
Tazzie
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Hi Tazzie
Thank you so very much for all of this information
Interesting that Mary Ann born Devonport - looks like I'll have to see if I can obtain the Thomas birth certificate of 1838 approx - just over the Civil Reg - I just hope I can get it- -with 7 children to support and many at School - how was Mary managing? Help from relatives?
James and Sarah Adams in the later Census 1871/ 1881 always mentioned the birth as Middlesex St Dunstan - but I always assumed this was St Dunstan in the East - in fact its St Dunstan's in the West
I wonder where that marriage is?
Thanks again
Steve
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Hi
I recently came across this thread while researching this Adams family for a friend. Her grandfather was Henry Adams born 1887 and his father Henry born 1867.
Do you have anything about the son of Henry (1887) also named Henry born in 1909. I have found most census records up until 1911, for which I can not find Henry 1909 or his parents.
You may be related to my friend.
Lynda
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is it Henry Robert Adams
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Yes 1909 is Henry Robert Adams. The others also have the middle Nome Robert. Henry Robert Adams born 1887 married Ada Gleeson in 1907.
Lynda
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I checked this marriage with Ada and the birth and it all seems to relate to Bury St Edumunds Suffolk: If so this is a different HR from my line - However, always remember that many men were lost at this time during the great war: It maybe worth checking war records and whether the widow went elsewhere: Henry Robert Adams like the surname was quite popular - hope that this is helpful - Steve
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Hello
I am looking for information of a Robert Henry Adams, whom I believe had a father William. I also believe he as part of the Liverpool Regiment, who served
2/5th Battalion T.F.
Formed at Liverpool Sept. 1914.
Nov. 1914 to Blackpool.
Feb. 1915 to Canterbury in 171st Bde. 57th Div.
July 1916 to Bourley, Aldershot.
Sept. 1916 Woking.
Feb. 1917 landed in France.
1.2.18 disbanded in France; personnel to 2/6, 2/7th, 11th and 12th Bns.
Is there any connection?
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afraid not but keep looking and good luck - steve
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Debra welcome, start a new topic for Robert Henry giving all the information you have and we will try to help you.
Jennifer